I have my doubts that Catholicism is Christianity

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NotTheRock

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What if you are holding the wrong Gospel and teaching it ignorantly? Is ignorance a sound excuse?
What I discuss here isn't necessarily what I discuss in the world. Most people don't know or care about theology. I keep it simple but also (hopefully) inspiring. For example, I share with many that God once thought of them, created them, and has big plans for them in his future Kingdom. I encourage them to talk to our Heavenly Father and to follow his son, Jesus. I rarely engage in theology with people in the world.
 

NotTheRock

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"Heaven going", is a teaching which was developed by Irenaeus, Origen, and Augustine 2nd - 4th century. It has no basis in the Hope of the Gospel, so I questioned what Scripture do you base this belief on?

I base my belief that my biological father is in Heaven in part on verses such as John 3:16.
 

Hiddenthings

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What I discuss here isn't necessarily what I discuss in the world. Most people don't know or care about theology. I keep it simple but also (hopefully) inspiring. For example, I share with many that God once thought of them, created them, and has big plans for them in his future Kingdom. I encourage them to talk to our Heavenly Father and to follow his son, Jesus. I rarely engage in theology with people in the world.
I understand as today is a godless world and few know the Father or His Word.
 

Hiddenthings

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You don't know if a commonly held belief is false until you are asked to prove it.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 But test everything; hold fast what is good.
 

Origen

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The grave - "dust you are and dust you shall return"

It perplexes me how people think they have an immortal soul.

No reason to be perplexed anymore: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: as the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7).

In Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth [...]". What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. Therefore, it's the physical body that returns to dust (Gen. 3:19, Ecc. 3:20).

Gen. 2:7 goes on to say, "[...] and breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving man something. In Jn. 4:24, we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" is the breath of God which is the soul [a spirit], the soul as life. It is the breath of the Spirit of God that becomes a living spirit in man: God's image and likeness (Gen. 1:26). This wonderful thing which is a soul, a thing created by God to give man His image and likeness as an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity, shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: as the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7)

"They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit [soul]!'” (Ac. 7:59)

A spirit, such as the soul, is incorporeal (Lk. 24:39), which means it isn't subject to the limits of physical death, and thus is immortal [Note: while all spirits are immortal, the only Spirit Who is eternal, as in "without beginning or end", is God].
 

Big Boy Johnson

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It perplexes me how people think they have an immortal soul.

Those ignorant of God's Word and void of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ wouldn't know that man was created by God in God's Image and since God never dies, neither shall any man - it's simply a matter of where they shall spend eternity

No reason for anybody to accept Jesus and get born again if they don't believe they have a immortal soul right?




Note: while all spirits are immortal, the only Spirit Who is eternal, as in "without beginning or end", is God

Correct, but once a man is created b y God in God's Image, the man will never cease to exist going forward
 

Hiddenthings

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"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: as the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7)
This is really poor exegesis and I mean really poor!

I could have chosen any one of your references and happy to deal with all if you require!

It's actually rather amusing watching people force this terrible doctrine on the Word of God

Firstly, the passage does not differentiate between "good" and "bad" spirits.

If the spirit returns to God, it must have originally come from Him. But who would argue that a person has a conscious existence before their earthly life begins? Likewise, there is no solid reason to expect a conscious existence after death.

The Hebrew word for "spirit" (ruach)—used in Ecclesiastes 3:19 and translated as "breath" is the same for both humans and animals. Can anyone reasonably claim that animals possess, or are, immortal spirits? :IDK:

The author of Ecclesiastes strongly emphasizes the mortality of humanity. Consider passages such as Ecclesiastes 9:5–6, 10 and 3:19–20, which make it clear that both humans and animals return to the dust and have no awareness in death.

Further to this if you can provide a Biblical (literal) example of an ethereal essence leaving a body and ascending Heavenward, I'm really eager to see that!

Enjoy!

Immortality is sought and not in your possession! Romans 2:7
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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This is really poor exegesis and I mean really poor!

That's rich coming from someone who doesn't even know God's Word or the Lord! :funlaugh2





You have more than shown this to be the case!

Everyone is welcome to have their own opinion, even erroneous ones!

No real Christian believes man does not have an immortal soul.

What a crock of cat smack! crazy.gif





If the spirit returns to God, it must have originally come from Him. But who would argue that a person has a conscious existence before their earthly life begins? Likewise, there is no solid reason to expect a conscious existence after death.

Wow! You are very badly confused and misinformed.

You are embarrassing yourself broman coffee:
 

Hiddenthings

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That's rich coming from someone who doesn't even know God's Word or the Lord! :funlaugh2







Everyone is welcome to have their own opinion, even erroneous ones!

No real Christian believes man does not have an immortal soul.

What a crock of cat smack! View attachment 66017







Wow! You are very badly confused and misinformed.

You are embarrassing yourself broman coffee:
If anything, consistent
 

Origen

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Consider passages such as Ecclesiastes 9:5–6, 10 and 3:19–20, which make it clear that both humans and animals return to the dust

As I said, in Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth [...]". What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. Therefore, it's the physical body that returns to dust (Gen. 3:19, Ecc. 3:20). In addition to having a physical body, within it is our spiritual and immortal soul: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: as the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7);"They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit [soul]!'” (Ac. 7:59). A spirit, such as the soul, is incorporeal (Lk. 24:39), which means it isn't subject to the limits of physical death, and thus is immortal [Note: while all spirits are immortal, the only Spirit Who is eternal, as in "without beginning or end", is God].

the passage does not differentiate between "good" and "bad" spirits.

If the spirit returns to God, it must have originally come from Him.

Correct. God gives every person a soul [spirit] which is the image and likeness of God Who is Spirit (Jn. 4:24). Upon physical death, the soul [spirit] returns to God (Ecc. 12:7) for judgment (Heb. 9:27, Matt. 12:46-37, 2 Cor. 5:10). A soul will either be judged to have won eternal life with God in Heaven or eternal life separated from God in Hell, of their own free will.

The Hebrew word for "spirit" (ruach)—used in Ecclesiastes 3:19 and translated as "breath" is the same for both humans and animals. Can anyone reasonably claim that animals possess, or are, immortal spirits? :IDK:

Only animal-man, not animal-brutes, are made in the image and likeness of God, and given dominion over the animal-brutes (Gen. 1:26-28). Gen. 2:7 reads that God "[...]breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving man something. In Jn. 4:24, we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" is the breath of God which is the soul [a spirit], the soul as life. It is the breath of the Spirit of God that becomes a living spirit in man: God's image and likeness (Gen. 1:26). This wonderful thing which is a soul, a thing created by God to give man His image and likeness as an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity, shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it. Therefore, animal-brutes don't and couldn't have a soul [spirit] that animal-man has.

Regarding judgment and resurrection, to reiterate, it's written that the spirit (soul) returns to God upon the physical death of the body, and it's then that it appears before Jesus in the individual judgment. But it is only a partial resurrection. Rather than a resurrection, it could be called the liberation of the spirit from the sheath of the flesh and the spirit's waiting to rejoin the flesh so as to reconstitute the living temple, created by the Father, the temple of man created in the image and likeness of God. (Gen. 1:26;2:7)

A work in which one part is missing is incomplete and thus imperfect. Man as a work, perfect in his creation, is incomplete and imperfect if not joined together again in his different parts. Destined to the Kingdom of Light or the dwelling of darkness, men must eternally be in one or the other with their perfection as flesh and spirit. The first and second resurrection are thus spoken of. But observe.

The one who has [spiritually] killed his spirit with an earthly life of sin comes to Jesus, in the particular judgment, with a spirit that is already dead. The final resurrection will cause his flesh to take on again the weight of the spirit so as to die [spiritually] with it completely. Whereas the one who has overcome the flesh in earthly life comes to Jesus, in the particular judgment, with an alive spirit that, on entering Paradise, increases his mode of living.

Those being purged (the souls in Purgatory—a place which precedes Heaven) are also "alive". [Spiritually] sick, but alive. When healing is obtained in expiation, they will enter the place which is Life. In the final resurrection their spirits, alive with Jesus's Life, to which they will be indissolubly united, will take on the flesh again to make it glorious and live with it totally, just as He lives with it. (Ezek. 18:4;5;17, Matt. 25: 31:46, 1 Cor. 15:35-58)

That's why the first and second death are spoken of and, consequently, the first and second resurrection. (N43)

Immortality is sought and not in your possession! Romans 2:7

Here's a lesson on Rom. 2:2-8. The justice of God is the second truth. Be it for one who is reprobate, as it is for one who is lukewarm, as it is also for one who burns with the purest love up to the sacrifice. Neither incense, nor the garment, nor the condition, nor the position, will alter the judgement of God. Nor do the bendings and scenarios placed to deceive men confuse Him, nor the hypocrisies, nor the impure acts of goodness, faith, honesty, and love.

The words of the Master are always alive and just, be it when they say, "Not everyone who saith 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of Heaven," as when He makes the parallel between the publican and the Pharisee, or be it when He gives the admirable code of the New Law with the sermon on the mount. (Matt. 5:6-7)

There is no mutation of the law to mutate the times. And there will not be diversity of judgement because God will always judge according to truth and justice.

And he who is appointed to judge or assigns himself the right of doing so will be judged even more. He is judged more, because more will be asked of one who has known the Law more. He is judged more because it is said, "Judge not, that you may not be judged."

Be little, be little, oh you whom the Holy Spirit loves. If you will be, He will teach you Wisdom. He will teach it to you with His love. Because, know this, Wisdom is learnt more through love than through instruction. He Who loves you, and you who love Him, are a light to understand the words of Wisdom, which without the light of love but only by means of culture, remain totally or in part obscure.

For this reason, Love will never cease to cry out, "It is through love that you will have salvation and peace." Because he who has love does not despise the riches of the divine goodness, of His patience and tolerance; he who has love loves repentance, does not judge, does not condemn, does not give scandal, and does not become lukewarm or cold, or filthy of corruption.

Whoever has love disarms the heart of God, however guilty he may be. God forgives he who loves Him and who weeps on His bosom, and not only will He give to all according to their works, always imperfect, of man, but by also keeping account of his love which is often greater than his capacity to do good. Even the desire of perfection will be calculated, when it will be an active desire, that is, a true desire that is not perfectly accomplished only because the creature does not have the capacity of accomplishing it.

God sees. He truly sees. And He sees as the most perfect God sees: with a perfection that does not stop at appearances. And with perfection, He judges after having waited patiently.
 
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Hiddenthings

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As I said, in Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth [...]". What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. Therefore, it's the physical body that returns to dust (Gen. 3:19, Ecc. 3:20). In addition to having a physical body, within it is our spiritual and immortal soul: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: as the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7);"They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit [soul]!'” (Ac. 7:59). A spirit, such as the soul, is incorporeal (Lk. 24:39), which means it isn't subject to the limits of physical death, and thus is immortal [Note: while all spirits are immortal, the only Spirit Who is eternal, as in "without beginning or end", is God].
You just ignored my reply, which conclusively proved your reference to Eccles 12:7 is misinterpreted.

By their fruits you shall know them!
 

Origen

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You just ignored my reply, which conclusively proved your reference to Eccles 12:7 is misinterpreted.

By their fruits you shall know them!

Instead of quoting my reply, you're claiming that I didn't reply at all.

"By their fruits you shall know them". Indeed.
 

Hiddenthings

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Dust + Breath of Life = A Living Soul (Person)

Same formula for animals!

Ecclesiastes 3:19 "For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity."

@Origen everything you have written can be undone by this one verse!

So, in nature we have no advantage over the animals!

The only different is we have the ability of morally reasoning, right from wrong.
 

Hiddenthings

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You didn't quote my reply, and instead claimed I didn't reply at all.

"By their fruits you shall know them". Indeed.
It seems that none of my points were addressed (#652), which is quite telling. It gives me some insight into the kind of believer you are and how you approach discussion.