I might regret asking but you know how we're the Bride of Christ...?

[FaithWillDo]

I think I have a better grasp on your view of works now.

I believe there are verses that point to God initiating conversion for sure. But then there are verses like the following:

Hebrews 3:15​

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​

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

John 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Why warn people not to harden their hearts if they truly don't have any say in the matter? My current understanding is that, while God knows who the elect are, we don't, thereby giving us a choice inside of time. I don't pretend to know how exactly how election vs choice works. But I do think Scripture points to both.

Dear Wynona,
You asked:
Why warn people not to harden their hearts if they truly don't have any say in the matter?

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

This warning is an encouragement by Paul to the Elect. Paul is encouraging them to remain faithful until the coming of the Lord when the Lord will pour out the Latter Rain and give them salvation.

Scripture is full of statements that tell us to do something, warn us about something or encourage us to do something. That does not mean that we have the ability to do it. Those statements are made so that when we find that we cannot follow them, we will turn to Christ for the ability. For example, the Law was given to the Nation of Israel but God knew beforehand that they would not be able to follow the Law. One of God's purposes for giving them the Law was so that it would be a schoolmaster which would led them to Christ and the New Covenant. The Law was not given to the Jewish Nation because God believed that they could make a choice of following it or not. The same is true of many verses of scripture, one of which is John 3:36.

Concerning Heb 3:15, it comes from Psa 95:7-8 and is referring to the time when the Nation of Israel "provoked" God by their sin of unbelief (faithlessness) after the 12 spies came back from spying out the Promised Land. Only Joshua and Caleb came back with a "good report" which was based on faith. The other 10 spies came back with a "bad report" which was based on their own abilities to defeat the giants in the land. Since the Nation of Israel believed the bad report, God sent them into the wilderness for forty years until everyone who believed the bad report had died. Only Joshua and Caleb lived to to cross the Jordan River and enter the Promised Land.

Joshua and Caleb are "types" for the Elect. It is they who did not harden their hearts but remained faithful. Paul is using their faith as an example for the Elect in the church to follow. Joshua and Caleb lived through their time in the wilderness and crossed the Jordan River (type for the Latter Rain) into the Promised Land (salvation). In Heb 3:15, Paul is paraphrasing this story to show that it is now being spiritually fulfilled by the Elect he was addressing. Those in the church who are not chosen, will suffer the same fate of unbelief that the children of Israel did.

God frequently teaches us in scripture by telling us to do things that we cannot do. He does this so that when we fail, we will learn from our failure and turn to Him for help.

One of the more notable items along these lines comes from the question that Paul was asked in Rom 9:17-20.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Paul was asked why God holds us accountable for sinning when He is the one who made us to sin in the first place. Why does God still find fault with us since no man has resisted God's "will"?

My belief is that God holds us accountable for our sins so that we will learn right from wrong. In the end, God wants His children to understand good and evil. He made us to be evil in the beginning. He has now sent Christ to teach us His goodness.

Where is mankind's "free will" in Rom 9:17-20? There is none.

Joe

 

[ScottA]

I think I read your free will breakdown three times...Im trying?

Are you agreeing with me that mankind has free will because we live inside of time but there's technically no free will in heaven and in God's eyes?

More or less.

Mankind does indeed have freewill...but what exists in heaven and in God is not entirely separate and exclusively of this world, as even the world exists within God. Rather than considering heaven and earth separately-- (not to get into mankind being driven out of the presence of God)--all this world is simply a revelation of what is in heaven, made manifest in part. This is the legal brief given before the judgment, regarding the offense event...which was actually "before the foundation of the world."

 

[Wynona]

Paul is encouraging them to remain faithful until the coming of the Lord when the Lord will pour out the Latter Rain and give them salvation.

So they are not saved, but they are to remain faithful? How?

God frequently teaches us in scripture by telling us to do things that we cannot do. He does this so that when we fail, we will learn from our failure and turn to Him for help.

I don't agree with this statement. Ive heard it before. Not only does it seem unlike the character of a good Father, but where does Scripture say God commands us to do things we will fail at so we will turn to Christ?

God expected the Israelites to obey Him to the best of their ability, sending them curses, plagues, and captivity when they didn't.

I do not believe we passively wait for Jesus to do everything for us. He ran the race but we have a race to run as well. Running is an active thing. We have a role to play in that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That in no way takes away from the fact that Jesus alone can save us. But that does involve free will and the ability to choose. We probably have a different way of viewing salvation.

 

[ScottA]

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Paul was asked why God holds us accountable for sinning when He is the one who made us to sin in the first place. Why does God still find fault with us since no man has resisted God's "will"?

My belief is that God holds us accountable for our sins so that we will learn right from wrong. In the end, God wants His children to understand good and evil. He made us to be evil in the beginning. He has now sent Christ to teach us His goodness.

Where is mankind's "free will" in Rom 9:17-20? There is none.

Joe,

Indeed, there appears to be no freewill in Rom 9:17-20. But that is only because the passage is only chronicling what was in God "before the foundation of the world."

In explanation, when it says "I raised thee up", God is saying, "Unbeknownst to you, I made you manifest just as you were (before the foundation of the world)."

Of course it is fine to speak only of the context of time separate from the greater context of God, but mixing the two is where we get into trouble. In which case "the word of truth" is not fully understood unless "rightly divided." In a sense, that makes both you and Wynona somewhat correct...but only somewhat.

 

[FaithWillDo]

As this is a huge topic, the context of which would indeed include some comment on "freewill", if I may clarify:

Freewill is a component of "silence in heaven for about half an hour", or as it is also stated "and half a time", as mere description in a setting where "yesterday, today, and forever" are all "the same." While "a time, times, and half a time" refers to the worldly (created) side of the equation, "silence in heaven" refers rather to the heavenly or timeless side. Of course, all things being of God, by God, and for God...the actual context is timeless, as He is timeless. Even so, the same matter is eluded to from both sides as a means of revelation. However, again, time being of this world and the kingdom of heaven not being of this world...in order for anything revealed during these times to come about, there had to be "silence" or a "half" (dividing) between eternity past and eternity future, so to speak. It is during that untime event that all things revealed seemingly over time occur, including freewill...also referred to as "the valley of decision."

All of time then, including that freewill/decision, only exists by word--not actually minute by minute, or over days, weeks, or years, but rather “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.” In other words, because every component of all revelation is regarding God, there is no actual time per se...because all is of God and in God, in whom there is "no shadow of turning"-- no time.

So, the typical understanding of freewill exercised over time, is naturally askew because nothing that has been revealed within would-be time was not actually already true "before the foundation of the world" and the created perception of time which does not otherwise exist. All of which means that freewill was a pre-existing reality which occurred within the mind of God, as well as in the mind of those created in His image, then revealed to us by the godly media of time, word, and manifestation: a joint decision "before the foundation of the world."

Dear ScottA,
The verses you mention teach nothing like what you are claiming in your post. The "silence in heaven" is referring to the time immediately following a person's conversion when Christ is revealed to them. It has nothing to do with time.

Also, time, times and a half is referring to last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy. This last 3 1/2 years is the same 3 1/2 years of Elijah's drought which occurs between the Early and Latter Rain. This symbol is also referred to as 42 months and 1260 days.

As for your conclusions about time and free will, they are completely unscriptural and they make no sense.

The simple truth of scripture is that mankind has no free will ability because God controls all things. God leaves nothing up to chance or to mankind's falsely taught free will.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe,

Indeed, there appears to be no freewill in Rom 9:17-20. But that is only because the passage is only chronicling what was in God "before the foundation of the world."

In explanation, when it says "I raised thee up", God is saying, "Unbeknownst to you, I made you manifest just as you were (before the foundation of the world)."

Of course it is fine to speak only of the context of time separate from the greater context of God, but mixing the two is where we get into trouble. In which case "the word of truth" is not fully understood unless "rightly divided." In a sense, that makes both you and Wynona somewhat correct...but only somewhat.

Dear ScottA,
As I said in my earlier post, your conclusions make no sense and are not supported by scripture.
Joe

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
The verses you mention teach nothing like what you are claiming in your post. The "silence in heaven" is referring to the time immediately following a person's conversion when Christ is revealed to them. It has nothing to do with time.

Also, time, times and a half is referring to last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy. This last 3 1/2 years is the same 3 1/2 years of Elijah's drought which occurs between the Early and Latter Rain. This symbol is also referred to as 42 months and 1260 days.

As for your conclusions about time and free will, they are completely unscriptural and they make no sense.

The simple truth of scripture is that mankind has no free will ability because God controls all things. God leaves nothing up to chance or to mankind's falsely taught free will.

Joe

Joe,

That certainly is the most common believed doctrine, and yet it should be understood that the teachings were in part "false" and based on "a lie." Indeed, I am not saying anything that would make sense to anyone brought up through such teachings as have been since the spirit of anti-Christ first had a hand in it.

The good news however, is Jesus also promised that we be lead unto all truth, the conclusion of which is the finish of the mystery of God leading up to the sounding of the seventh angel. It is within this biblical framework that I have spoken.

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
As I said in my earlier post, your conclusions make no sense and are not supported by scripture.
Joe

Indeed, they are supported, even if not received.

 

[FaithWillDo]

So they are not saved, but they are to remain faithful? How?




I don't agree with this statement. Ive heard it before. Not only does it seem unlike the character of a good Father, but where does Scripture say God commands us to do things we will fail at so we will turn to Christ?

God expected the Israelites to obey Him to the best of their ability, sending them curses, plagues, and captivity when they didn't.

I do not believe we passively wait for Jesus to do everything for us. He ran the race but we have a race to run as well. Running is an active thing. We have a role to play in that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That in no way takes away from the fact that Jesus alone can save us. But that does involve free will and the ability to choose. We probably have a different way of viewing salvation.

Dear Wynona,
You asked:
So they are not saved, but they are to remain faithful? How?

At the time Paul wrote His letters to the churches, the spirit of anti-Christ had not devoured the church yet. Paul's churches had received the Early Rain (the earnest amount) and were waiting for the Lord to come a second time with the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain converts a believer and permanently saves them. Since the churches of Paul's time had not "fallen away", the called out believers were still saved after receiving the Early Rain, they just were not converted. But because Paul's churches also remained carnal, Paul knew that they could still fall away. That is why He was working to keep them a "chaste virgin" until Christ returned.

You said:
I don't agree with this statement. Ive heard it before. Not only does it seem unlike the character of a good Father, but where does Scripture say God commands us to do things we will fail at so we will turn to Christ?

God expected the Israelites to obey Him to the best of their ability, sending them curses, plagues, and captivity when they didn't.

I do not believe we passively wait for Jesus to do everything for us. He ran the race but we have a race to run as well. Running is an active thing. We have a role to play in that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That in no way takes away from the fact that Jesus alone can save us. But that does involve free will and the ability to choose. We probably have a different way of viewing salvation.

You have a very strong works based belief system. If Christ didn't act first within us, we would never accept Him as our Lord. We must wait on Him for all our needs.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Patience is one of the fruits of the Spirit because we need it.

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

He that killeth with the Sword is the believers in the apostate church who teach "another gospel". They will later be killed with the Sword when they are converted into a child of God. We must have patience to wait on the Lord to do all these things.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Finally, no where in scripture does it ever say that mankind has a free will. Mankind has a "will" and can make choices but those decisions are controlled by God. That truth is what many, many verses of scripture say.

The Doctrine of Free Will is the foundational lie from Satan which causes a believer to mix works with faith. It is the sin that leads to death. For that reason, Christ must "come again" to a believer if they are going to be saved before they die. They need the Latter Rain and must wait on Him to come. They can do nothing unless the Lord gives them the ability to do it. We must trust in the Lord for all our needs.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe,

That certainly is the most common believed doctrine, and yet it should be understood that the teachings were in part "false" and based on "a lie." Indeed, I am not saying anything that would make sense to anyone brought up through such teachings as have been since the spirit of anti-Christ first had a hand in it.

The good news however, is Jesus also promised that we be lead unto all truth, the conclusion of which is the finish of the mystery of God leading up to the sounding of the seventh angel. It is within this biblical framework that I have spoken.

Dear ScottA,
The Elect will be led unto all truth before they die. The "many" who are not chosen will remain walking in darkness until they are converted at the end of the final age.

For the Elect, the mystery of God is finished when they are converted and have been given "eyes that can see".

The conversion event happens when the seventh angel sounds and when the sixth seal is opened.

The Elect must "keep" the sayings of the prophecy to be saved:

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

The book of Revelation is the unveiling of Christ within His Elect. It teaches the pathway to salvation they will travel. It includes the Elect eating the unleavened bread of Satan and then the true bread of Christ.

To be saved in this age, Christ must come quickly before a person dies. If Christ doesn't come quickly to a believer, they will die in their sins and be resurrected to judgment. So why doesn't Christ "come again" to a person in the church to save them? The answer is simply because they were not chosen to be saved as a First Fruit. Many are called but FEW are chosen.

Mankind has no ability to save themselves or to decide when they will be saved. Everyone must must wait on the Lord to come to us and save us. That is the only way a person is saved. Mankind's carnal nature hates this truth and that is why the apostate church created their false doctrine of free will.

Joe

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
The Elect will be led unto all truth before they die. The "many" who are not chosen will remain walking in darkness until they are converted at the end of the final age.

For the Elect, the mystery of God is finished when they are converted and have been given "eyes that can see".

The conversion event happens when the seventh angel sounds and when the sixth seal is opened.

The Elect must "keep" the sayings of the prophecy to be saved:

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

The book of Revelation is the unveiling of Christ within His Elect. It teaches the pathway to salvation they will travel. It includes the Elect eating the unleavened bread of Satan and then the true bread of Christ.

To be saved in this age, Christ must come quickly before a person dies. If Christ doesn't come quickly to a believer, they will die in their sins and be resurrected to judgment. So why doesn't Christ "come again" to a person in the church to save them? The answer is simply because they were not chosen to be saved as a First Fruit. Many are called but FEW are chosen.

Mankind has no ability to save themselves or to decide when they will be saved. Everyone must must wait on the Lord to come to us and save us. That is the only way a person is saved. Mankind's carnal nature hates this truth and that is why the apostate church created their false doctrine of free will.

Joe

True enough. However, the truth of all things has its origin in God, which is not the same freewill doctrine you are perhaps speaking of and reacting to.

To the contrary, I was speaking of the reality that God has ordained that all pass through the valley of decision. This is the true component of freewill--not the teachings of men to the contrary. As such, this valley of decision was created and is the revealing of all such decisions (or freewill) which occurred "before the foundation of the world." Thus, it is not a life of decisions made at every turn, or even at a moment in time when one comes to the end of themselves as it may seem. But rather was decided before the foundation of the world individually just as it was individual for Adam and Eve. Just as it is written of Israel, God (before the foundation of the world) sets before us all life and death, that we might choose life. But do notice that He sets it "before" we walk it out. Therefore, I have said it is a decision made before, but nonetheless a decision of our own will. Walking then through the valley of decision is only predestined according to what was decided before the foundation of the world, which was not predetermined by God, but rather insistently predetermined by our own decision according to the sort of "I am", whether good or evil, that we were even before the foundation of the world.

 

[FaithWillDo]

True enough. However, the truth of all things has its origin in God, which is not the same freewill doctrine you are perhaps speaking of and reacting to.

To the contrary, I was speaking of the reality that God has ordained that all pass through the valley of decision. This is the true component of freewill--not the teachings of men to the contrary. As such, this valley of decision was created and is the revealing of all such decisions (or freewill) which occurred "before the foundation of the world." Thus, it is not a life of decisions made at every turn, or even at a moment in time when one comes to the end of themselves as it may seem. But rather was decided before the foundation of the world individually just as it was individual for Adam and Eve. Just as it is written of Israel, God (before the foundation of the world) sets before us all life and death, that we might choose life. But do notice that He sets it "before" we walk it out. Therefore, I have said it is a decision made before, but nonetheless a decision of our own will. Walking then through the valley of decision is only predestined according to what was decided before the foundation of the world, which was not predetermined by God, but rather insistently predetermined by our own decision according to the sort of "I am", whether good or evil, that we were even before the foundation of the world.

Dear ScottA,
I do not know of any verses which support your statements above. In contrast, I know of many verses which contradict your comments. It seems like you are trying to find a way to support your belief in mankind's free will rather than allowing scripture to teach you what to believe.
Joe

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
I do not know of any verses which support your statements above. In contrast, I know of many verses which contradict your comments. It seems like you are trying to find a way to support your belief in mankind's free will rather than allowing scripture to teach you what to believe.
Joe

Well, I have quoted plenty of verses. But no, I am not trying to do anything but explain what is actually true against 2,000 years of everyone and their brother trying to teach what they believed against the truth, just as it was foretold to occur...which is also true.

 

[quietthinker]

The bible says that marriage is a reflection of Christ and the Church with Christ as the husband and the Church as the Bride.

Revelation 19:9

King James Version

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

So in heaven, there will be a marriage. So Im wondering if there will be a wedding too and a sort of spiritual consummation that will result in the saints having further unity with Christ.

My question is, what do you think marriage to Christ will be like?

I imagine, no more feelings of loneliness or being misunderstood ever. Because we would all be in God's presence and understand one another perfectly, being one Body wedded to Christ.

We will rule the Universe with him. Why? because no other creation has the experience of God condescending to the point of death for the elevation of his creature, as none other has succumbed to Satans temptations. He identified with us so we could identify with him.....and the promise is to sit with him on his throne.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

we would all be in God's presence and understand one another perfectly, being one Body wedded to Christ.

Or, according to this, Christ Will Marry Another 'bride'?

Is The Body Of Christ The Lamb's Wife?

Amen.

 

[MatthewG]

We are like the 50th century fruits of the bride as believers.

 

[Freedm]

The bible says that marriage is a reflection of Christ and the Church with Christ as the husband and the Church as the Bride.

Revelation 19:9

King James Version

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

So in heaven, there will be a marriage. So Im wondering if there will be a wedding too and a sort of spiritual consummation that will result in the saints having further unity with Christ.

My question is, what do you think marriage to Christ will be like?

I imagine, no more feelings of loneliness or being misunderstood ever. Because we would all be in God's presence and understand one another perfectly, being one Body wedded to Christ.

I believe we are already married to Christ. So you tell me, what is it like?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I believe we are already married to Christ. So you tell me, what is it like?

Welcome to CB.
May you be blessed and be a blessing in the word.