I might regret asking but you know how we're the Bride of Christ...?

[Wynona]

The bible says that marriage is a reflection of Christ and the Church with Christ as the husband and the Church as the Bride.

Revelation 19:9

King James Version

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

So in heaven, there will be a marriage. So Im wondering if there will be a wedding too and a sort of spiritual consummation that will result in the saints having further unity with Christ.

My question is, what do you think marriage to Christ will be like?

I imagine, no more feelings of loneliness or being misunderstood ever. Because we would all be in God's presence and understand one another perfectly, being one Body wedded to Christ.

 

[Nancy]

The bible says that marriage is a reflection of Christ and the Church with Christ as the husband and the Church as the Bride.

Revelation 19:9

King James Version

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

So in heaven, there will be a marriage. So Im wondering if there will be a wedding too and a sort of spiritual consummation that will result in the saints having further unity with Christ.

My question is, what do you think marriage to Christ will be like?

I imagine, no more feelings of loneliness or being misunderstood ever. Because we would all be in God's presence and understand one another perfectly, being one Body wedded to Christ.

"My question is, what do you think marriage to Christ will be like?"

That's a good question Wynona! IMHO... marriage to Christ would be a joyous and fully faithful union, Bride and Groom. Now, who are the "guests" do you think?
xoxo

 

[Wynona]

"My question is, what do you think marriage to Christ will be like?"

That's a good question Wynona! IMHO... marriage to Christ would be a joyous and fully faithful union, Bride and Groom. Now, who are the "guests" do you think?
xoxo

Angels!

 

[Nancy]

Angels!

Maybe! I think more towards the Bridegrooms as being Jesus' friends.

Friends of the Bridegroom verses:
Matt 9:1
"Jesus said to them, "Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast."

Mrk 2:19

"And Jesus said unto them, Can the friends of the bridegroom fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast."

Luk 5:34

"He said to them, "Can you make the friends of the bridegroom fast, while the bridegroom is with them?"

Or a combination of all!

 

[Lambano]

My question is, what do you think marriage to Christ will be like?

Intimate in ways I cannot fathom.

 

[Bob Estey]

The bible says that marriage is a reflection of Christ and the Church with Christ as the husband and the Church as the Bride.

Revelation 19:9

King James Version

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

So in heaven, there will be a marriage. So Im wondering if there will be a wedding too and a sort of spiritual consummation that will result in the saints having further unity with Christ.

My question is, what do you think marriage to Christ will be like?

I imagine, no more feelings of loneliness or being misunderstood ever. Because we would all be in God's presence and understand one another perfectly, being one Body wedded to Christ.

We are to walk with the Lord (pray constantly - 1 Thess 5:17).

 

[FaithWillDo]

The bible says that marriage is a reflection of Christ and the Church with Christ as the husband and the Church as the Bride.

Revelation 19:9

King James Version

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

So in heaven, there will be a marriage. So Im wondering if there will be a wedding too and a sort of spiritual consummation that will result in the saints having further unity with Christ.

My question is, what do you think marriage to Christ will be like?

I imagine, no more feelings of loneliness or being misunderstood ever. Because we would all be in God's presence and understand one another perfectly, being one Body wedded to Christ.

Dear Wynona,
Scripture teaches us in the spiritual language of Christ. It uses spiritual symbols, types, parables and analogies.

The Marriage analogy teaches the same pathway to salvation which other analogies teach. The pathway begins when an unbeliever receives the Early Rain (the Holy Spirit of Promise, Eph 1:13-14) and is called out from the world. This is when a person enters the "church". At this time, the new believer is said to be a "chaste virgin" who is waiting for her bridegroom to return for the marriage. This is taught by Paul and also in the Parable of the Ten Virgins.

Since the Early Rain is only an "earnest" of the Spirit, it will not convert the new believer. The believer will remain carnally minded and spiritually blind. Because of these weaknesses, the believer cannot understand the spiritual language of Christ. They can only try to understand it in a "carnal" way. This lack of ability to understand the truth will open to the door to Satan's deceptions who will quickly come to the new believer. Since the "another gospel" that Satan teaches is pleasing to the believer's carnal nature, they will quickly accept it and believe it as the truth of Christ. From Satan's deception, they will become spiritually "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

Satan's false gospel mixes man's "works" with faith. When a believer accepts this gospel, they will fall away and lose their salvation. In terms of the marriage analogy, the "chaste virgin" will no longer be chaste because she has spiritually fornicated with Satan (believing Satan over Christ). This is the same sin which Eve committed in the Garden of Eden.

What I have described above is the beginning portion of the pathway to salvation. Everyone who receives the Early Rain and is called out from the world will experience Satan's deceptions. No one can avoid it happening. This is what happened to the church in the late 1st century A.D. shortly after the deaths of the Apostles. The church became "apostate" and a place where the "blind lead the blind", fully under the deceptions and control of Satan. For that reason, the church of today is walking in darkness and has splintered into around 2,000 different denominations and sects. Each "church" claims to teach the truth of Christ, but none of them do.

For fallen away believers in the apostate church who have also been chosen from the foundation of the world (the Elect), Christ will send a person to them in the spirit of Elijah who will make the call of repentance (from works) to them. Christ will then cause the Elect believer to repent and their repentance will make the pathway straight for the Lord to "come again" to them. When Christ comes, He will give the fallen away believer the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is another name for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost. This event is also called the Marriage of the Lamb in the marriage analogy. When the Latter Rain falls on the fallen away Elect believer, they will be "born again" and their spiritual blindness will be healed.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will immediately follow the marriage ceremony. During the marriage supper, Christ will feed His new bride (new child of God) His truth of milk, bread, new wine and meat. After the bride receives sufficient nourishment from the supper, the Day of the Lord will arrive and destroy the carnality of the believer. This whole process of salvation is called "conversion".

The Marriage of the Lamb is not teaching about a literal wedding which will someday take place. It is only an analogy which Christ uses to teach His truth. It is teaching about the spiritual pathway that an Elect believer will travel to be saved during their lifetime. Once a believer is converted, they will have experienced all the events taught by the marriage analogy.

I'm sure what I have presented above is strange to you because it is not understood or taught in the apostate churches of the world. To understand it, a believer must have "eyes that can see". Only then will the truth of scripture open up to a believer.

As for your question of what the marriage to Christ (salvation of the Elect) will be like, these verses below answer that question::

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

If you have any specific questions, I would be willing to try and answer them.

Joe

 

[Wynona]

Satan's false gospel mixes man's "works" with faith.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

 

[dev553344]

The bible says that marriage is a reflection of Christ and the Church with Christ as the husband and the Church as the Bride.

Revelation 19:9

King James Version

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

So in heaven, there will be a marriage. So Im wondering if there will be a wedding too and a sort of spiritual consummation that will result in the saints having further unity with Christ.

My question is, what do you think marriage to Christ will be like?

I imagine, no more feelings of loneliness or being misunderstood ever. Because we would all be in God's presence and understand one another perfectly, being one Body wedded to Christ.

The way I understand that is being one flesh with Christ by taking the sacrament. We eat bread (his body) and drink wine (his blood). Of course the sacrament is just symbolic, but if Jesus accepts us he makes it real with what I believe to be the Holy Spirit. This concept is reflected in the language used for Adam and Eve and the fact that the bible calls Jesus the last Adam, made a quickening spirit. They were married and become one flesh.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Dear Wynona,
That is a very good question. It will take a little time to answer though, so please bear with me.

Here is mankind's created spiritual state:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

In this flawed spiritual state, mankind became carnally minded and sinful (subject to vanity).

It is mankind's carnality which blinds them from knowing and understanding God. Because of such, Christ must do all the work of of saving us.

Under the New Covenant of Grace through faith, Christ will destroy the old vessel and make mankind into a new vessel. This work of converting mankind into children of God is done solely because the Potter desires to do it. Mankind's salvation is not dependent upon anything from mankind.

The Old Covenant of Law is based upon man's work of making himself acceptable to God. But because of mankind's carnality, the Old Covenant of Law could not save mankind. To save mankind, mankind must be changed spiritually. When a person comes to this realization, it will lead them to Christ and His spiritual work under the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is based upon Christ's work of making mankind acceptable to God. Under the New Covenant, mankind has no works to contribute to their own salvation. If they did, they would have something to boast about:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

When a believer is called out from the world, they will come under the New Covenant of Grace through faith. But because the believer will remain carnally minded, they will quickly begin mixing in their own works with faith.

This happens naturally:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, the old is better.

The Old Wine represents the blood of the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant. The New Wine represents the blood of Christ of the New Covenant. Carnal mankind prefers the Old Covenant of their own works over the New Covenant of Christ's works. Christ said that when a believer does this "mixing", they are trying to serve two masters (Christ & Satan).

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Trying to be acceptable to God by "works" is called the crooked way. It is the way that this world approaches who they believe to be God and it is called religion. It is also Satan's way and that is why Satan is called the crooked serpent.

In contrast, the New Covenant is based upon faith in Christ doing all the works and this is called the straight way. That is why when John the Baptist made his call of repentance from works to the Nation of Israel, he said it was to make the pathway straight for the Lord to come.

Here is how Christ does all the works of saving a person under the New Covenant:

In the age, many people are called but few are chosen for salvation.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Since Christ is the only one who has the ability to save a person, He decides who to save and when they are saved.

In this present age, Christ is only saving the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. They were chosen for this blessing from the foundation of the world. They did nothing to earn this blessing. They simply were chosen by God to satisfy His own plan and purposes.

To save one of the Elect, Christ will come to them without their asking and without their permission. He will then give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain, they will make a confession of faith and will no longer be able to reject Christ:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Until Christ comes to person and gives them the Early Rain, they can only reject Him. They have no "free will" ability to make any other choice.

After Christ gives a person the the Early Rain, the Early Rain will cause that person to make a confession of faith when they are presented with the Gospel. This confession of faith is not their own work, it is the work of Christ.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Under the New Covenant, Christ's work is "spiritual" work. That work happens within mankind. In this way, Christ will change a person into a new vessel.

As I said in my first post, the Early Rain is given only in an earnest amount (a down payment). It will leave the believer carnally minded and spiritually blind. In that condition, they will fall away from faith alone and will begin mixing in their own works.

The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common lie from Satan which causes a new believer to fall away and turn to religion for their salvation. A believer will use this "works" based belief system of the Doctrine of Free Will to justify why unbelievers are worthy of hell and why they are not. The believer will falsely believe that they are wiser, smarter or simply less evil than those who reject Christ. And because of this belief, they will take credit for making the right choice to accept Christ. But in truth, the credit for the decision they made is not theirs. Their decision came from the spiritual work of Christ which He did within them beforehand. That is the only reason why they accepted Jesus as their Lord. They have nothing to boast about.

Since all newly called out believers remain carnally minded after receiving the Early Rain, they will all fall away from faith alone and will mix in their own preferred type of works. When they do this, they will lose their salvation.

For a select few (the Elect), Christ will come to them a second time and will give them the Latter Rain. This is the full payment of the Spirit and it will cause the person to be "born again". It will also heal the person's spiritual blindness. Now with "eyes that can see", the truth of Christ in scripture will open up to them. It is the truth of Christ that will bring the judgment of Christ to them and subsequently, convert them. The old vessel will then be destroyed and the new vessel created.

This is how Christ saves a person. It happens solely because of Christ's spiritual work and He alone chooses when and to whom He will do this work. A person has no free will ability to save themselves.

And since Christ loves all mankind, those who have not been chosen for salvation before they die, Christ will save them in the next age after they have been resurrected to judgment. During their time of judgment, Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the Early and Latter Rains just as He did for the Elect.

This verse applies:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, and mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Christ's judgment will not omit justice, mercy and faith. Before the "lost" are destroyed, they will receive mercy and faith and will be "born again". Justice is satisfied by the destruction of the old vessel.

By the end of the final age, 100% of mankind will be saved:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The purpose of this creation is to create new children for God. In the end, Christ's mission of creating these new children will be accomplished.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

And mankind has no say in the matter:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

And no one can "stay His hand".

Joe

 

[Wynona]

Dear Wynona,
That is a very good question. It will take a little time to answer though, so please bear with me.




Joe

I appreciate you explaining your point of view on this. I had to delete most of your post because of the word limit on this message board.

I don't agree that free will is a lie and my view of works is that there are two kinds.

As believers in Christ, we are no longer under the 613 laws of Moses. But the Scripture says Jesus died to redeem for Himself a people zealous for good works.

Titus 2:14

King James Version

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I think I understand where you are coming from. But good works are what we ought to be doing, following the law of Christ.

Jesus said we should love one another. Love also includes giving and sharing with those in need. These are the works we do under the new covenant and I don't think it's the same as "works based salvation". In James 2, it states that faith alone does not save.

James 2: 24

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[ScottA]

The bible says that marriage is a reflection of Christ and the Church with Christ as the husband and the Church as the Bride.

Revelation 19:9

King James Version

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

So in heaven, there will be a marriage. So Im wondering if there will be a wedding too and a sort of spiritual consummation that will result in the saints having further unity with Christ.

My question is, what do you think marriage to Christ will be like?

I imagine, no more feelings of loneliness or being misunderstood ever. Because we would all be in God's presence and understand one another perfectly, being one Body wedded to Christ.

The answer to your question was eluded to by Paul, saying, "For me, to live is Christ."

If Paul was able to say that he was/is Christ, it would surely mean that he had (past tense) "become one flesh" with Christ--which is the consummation of marriage...just as Eve was one with Adam before being taken out of him, but would not fully be One again until Christ; just as marriage (the mystery of being One) with Christ has been described by example since the beginning.

Thus, with the biblical evidence of Paul having been "married" and One with Christ as He claimed--the wedding is not future (as Paul was proof)--unless the same has not happened to you...in which case it is indeed future for you. For which Paul also explained that this union of us with Christ is not a grand finale event at the end of the history of the world, "but each one in his own order." If it were not so--in spite of going against every other Christian doctrine for 2,000 years--for Paul to claim "For me, to live is Christ", would be a lie. But it was not a lie.

Time for a new doctrine.

Revelation 18:4​

And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.​

 

[FaithWillDo]

I appreciate you explaining your point of view on this. I had to delete most of your post because of the word limit on this message board.

I don't agree that free will is a lie and my view of works is that there are two kinds.

As believers in Christ, we are no longer under the 613 laws of Moses. But the Scripture says Jesus died to redeem for Himself a people zealous for good works.

Titus 2:14

King James Version

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I think I understand where you are coming from. But good works are what we ought to be doing, following the law of Christ.

Jesus said we should love one another. Love also includes giving and sharing with those in need. These are the works we do under the new covenant and I don't think it's the same as "works based salvation". In James 2, it states that faith alone does not save.

James 2: 24

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Dear Wynona,
"Good works" are the same thing as "works of faith". They happen naturally after a person is converted and are the evidence of their conversion. We cannot take credit for these works either because they are caused by Christ.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The Doctrine of Free Will is contradicted by these two verses alone. I could have posted many more.

As for the Law, you are right by saying that we are no longer under the 613 laws of Moses (I assumed your count is correct, I have never counted them). These laws were fulfilled by Christ at the cross. The law of the Sabbath Day is fulfilled when a person is converted and has entered into the "rest" of Christ. As for the other laws of things like "do not steal, to not commit adultery, etc., they are fulfilled by loving God and loving our neighbor - and that happens naturally when we are lead by the Spirit after we are converted.

A "works based salvation" relies on mankind doing "something" to be saved. The apostate church teaches that we must make a free will confession of faith to be saved. They teach that people who do not make this confession, deserve to go to hell because they rejected Christ.

But the truth proclaimed by scripture is that no one can make that free will decision because no one seeks after God (the true God) nor can anyone understand or know Him. Mankind's carnality blinds us from Him. It simply is not possible for anyone to make a confession of faith being in that carnal spiritual state.

The only way to make a confession of faith is for Christ to give a person the Holy Spirit beforehand. Once they have the Spirit, they can no longer reject Christ. They can only call Him "Lord".

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Paul's conversion is the pattern all the Elect will travel to be saved (1Tim 1:16).

Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road without Paul making a "free will" decision for Christ. But Christ came to Paul anyway because Christ alone chose to come to him. Christ then gave Paul the Early Rain. Paul responded by falling to his knees and calling Jesus "Lord".

Paul had no intention of accepting Christ. In fact, Paul hated Christ and was passionate about persecuting the church. But all that changed for Paul "suddenly" when Christ came to His temple (Paul). Paul then became blind to show that he remained spiritually blind. Paul was then lead by the hand to Damascus where he remained blind and unable to eat or drink for three days. This "typed" is falling away and being unable to consume the bread and wine of the New Covenant. After the three days were fulfilled (three is the number for a spiritual process), Ananias (a type for Christ) came to Paul on "Straight" street and gave Paul the Latter Rain. This event healed Paul's spiritual blindness and caused him to be "born again". Paul was then told to eat "meat".

Paul's conversion pathway is presented over and over again in scripture (usually "here a little and there a little", Isa 28:9-12) using different analogies. The Early and Latter Rain is used in the farming analogy and is taught by The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares. It teaches the same pathway of Paul's conversion. The marriage analogy is another one.

The Doctrine of Free Will teaches that mankind must contribute to their own salvation. It teaches that only people who are wise enough, smart enough or not too evil can be saved. This comes from the "another gospel" taught by the apostate church.

The truth is that to be saved, Christ must come to us individually and change our heart and mind - just as He did with Paul. Only then can a person ever make a confession of faith.

Mankind's way is not his own. We do not get to direct our own steps:

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

God leaves nothing up to chance or up to mankind's supposed "free will" for a person to be saved. God rules supreme over His creation and does as He pleases. His work, through Jesus Christ, will make all things happen just as He has said.

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

In the end, God will be "all in all" because no one will be left out of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Joe

 

[Wynona]

Dear Wynona,
"Good works" are the same thing as "works of faith". They happen naturally after a person is converted and are the evidence of their conversion. We cannot take credit for these works either because they are caused by Christ.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The Doctrine of Free Will is contradicted by these two verses alone. I could have posted many more.

As for the Law, you are right by saying that we are no longer under the 613 laws of Moses (I assumed your count is correct, I have never counted them). These laws were fulfilled by Christ at the cross. The law of the Sabbath Day is fulfilled when a person is converted and has entered into the "rest" of Christ. As for the other laws of things like "do not steal, to not commit adultery, etc., they are fulfilled by loving God and loving our neighbor - and that happens naturally when we are lead by the Spirit after we are converted.

A "works based salvation" relies on mankind doing "something" to be saved. The apostate church teaches that we must make a free will confession of faith to be saved. They teach that people who do not make this confession, deserve to go to hell because they rejected Christ.

But the truth proclaimed by scripture is that no one can make that free will decision because no one seeks after God (the true God) nor can anyone understand or know Him. Mankind's carnality blinds us from Him. It simply is not possible for anyone to make a confession of faith being in that carnal spiritual state.

The only way to make a confession of faith is for Christ to give someone the Holy Spirit beforehand. Once they have the Spirit, they can no longer reject Christ. They can only call Him "Lord".

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Paul's conversion is the pattern all the Elect will travel to be saved (1Tim 1:16).

Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road without Paul making a "free will" decision for Christ. But Christ came to Paul anyway because Christ alone chose to come to him. Christ then gave Paul the Early Rain. Paul responded by falling to his knees and calling Jesus "Lord".

Paul had no intention of accepting Christ. In fact, Paul hated Christ and was passionate about persecuting the church. But all that changed for Paul "suddenly" when Christ came to His temple (Paul). Paul then became blind to show that he remained spiritually blind. Paul was then lead by the hand to Damascus where he remained blind and unable to eat or drink for three days. This "typed" is falling away and being unable to consume the bread and wine of the New Covenant. After the three days were fulfilled (three is the number for a spiritual process), Ananias (a type for Christ) came to Paul on "Straight" street and gave Paul the Latter Rain. This event healed Paul's spiritual blindness and caused him to be "born again". Paul was then told to eat "meat".

Paul's conversion pathway is presented over and over again in scripture (usually "here a little and there a little", Isa 28:9-12) using different analogies. The Early and Latter Rain is used in the farming analogy and is taught by The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares. It teaches the same pathway of Paul's conversion. The marriage analogy is another one.

The Doctrine of Free Will teaches that mankind must contribute to their own salvation. It teaches that only people who are wise enough, smart enough or not too evil can be saved. This comes from the "another gospel" taught by the apostate church.

The truth is that to be saved, Christ must come to us individually and change our heart and mind - just as He did with Paul. Only then can a person ever make a confession of faith.

Mankind's way is not his own. We do not get to direct our own steps:

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

God leaves nothing up to chance or up to mankind's supposed "free will" for a person to be saved. God rules supreme over His creation and does as He pleases. His work, through Jesus Christ, will make all things happen just as He has said.

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

In the end, God will be "all in all" because no one will be left out of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Joe

I think I have a better grasp on your view of works now.

I believe there are verses that point to God initiating conversion for sure. But then there are verses like the following:

Hebrews 3:15

​

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

John 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Why warn people not to harden their hearts if they truly don't have any say in the matter? My current understanding is that, while God knows who the elect are, we don't, thereby giving us a choice inside of time. I don't pretend to know how exactly how election vs choice works. But I do think Scripture points to both.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: know we are 'the bride of Christ'?

These things I know, according to Scriptures:

Are not "The Bride ( woman ), The Heavenly Jerusalem" (Rev 19:7, 21:2, 9)?

And, we, The Body Of Christ, "The ONE New Man" (Ephesians 2:15)?

Conclusion: we the Body Of Christ, are actually the 'bridegroom' ( man ), Correct?

Amen.

 

[Wynona]

Conclusion: we the Body Of Christ, are actually the 'bridegroom' ( man ), Correct?

Ive always thought of Jesus as the Bridegroom but Ill likely look into the verses you referenced.

 

[ScottA]

I don't agree that free will is a lie

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The Doctrine of Free Will is contradicted by these two verses alone. I could have posted many more.

As this is a huge topic, the context of which would indeed include some comment on "freewill", if I may clarify:

Freewill is a component of "silence in heaven for about half an hour", or as it is also stated "and half a time", as mere description in a setting where "yesterday, today, and forever" are all "the same." While "a time, times, and half a time" refers to the worldly (created) side of the equation, "silence in heaven" refers rather to the heavenly or timeless side. Of course, all things being of God, by God, and for God...the actual context is timeless, as He is timeless. Even so, the same matter is eluded to from both sides as a means of revelation. However, again, time being of this world and the kingdom of heaven not being of this world...in order for anything revealed during these times to come about, there had to be "silence" or a "half" (dividing) between eternity past and eternity future, so to speak. It is during that untime event that all things revealed seemingly over time occur, including freewill...also referred to as "the valley of decision."

All of time then, including that freewill/decision, only exists by word--not actually minute by minute, or over days, weeks, or years, but rather “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.” In other words, because every component of all revelation is regarding God, there is no actual time per se...because all is of God and in God, in whom there is "no shadow of turning"-- no time.

So, the typical understanding of freewill exercised over time, is naturally askew because nothing that has been revealed within would-be time was not actually already true "before the foundation of the world" and the created perception of time which does not otherwise exist. All of which means that freewill was a pre-existing reality which occurred within the mind of God, as well as in the mind of those created in His image, then revealed to us by the godly media of time, word, and manifestation: a joint decision "before the foundation of the world."

 

[Wynona]

All of time then, including that freewill/decision, only exists by word--not actually minute by minute, or over days, weeks, or years, but rather “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.” In other word, because every component of all revelation is regarding God, there is no actual time per se...because all is of God and in God, in whom there is "no shadow of turning"-- no time

Oh no.

I'm not smart enough to understand this! Lol it's not your fault! Ill probably never understand freewill vs the Sovereignty of God.

 

[ScottA]

Oh no.

I'm not smart enough to understand this! Lol it's not your fault! Ill probably never understand freewill vs the Sovereignty of God.

Oh, but you will!

 

[Wynona]

Oh, but you will!

I think I read your free will breakdown three times...Im trying?

Are you agreeing with me that mankind has free will because we live inside of time but there's technically no free will in heaven and in God's eyes?