"I never knew you: depart from me, you that work inquity."

[bbyrd009]

Please elaborate.

The line in the sand is if you believe in His Son, you do or you don't.

well, imo it is the diff in faith and belief. If you believe in Jesus, you likely also believe you cannot sin, etc., misinterpreting those vvv as automatically applying somehow also--what we could also define as a "psychopath" iow--If you have faith in Christ, you demonstrate it by recognizing and expressing remorse when you sin, and you rebound, or at least try.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Wouldn't that be in knowing truth ( Truth) but not living in it? ( Him)

ByGrace, I had a post written to reply to thread...but then you posted and the direction changed. "Having the truth but not living in it?"

How are they not living in the truth?

Romans 1:17-18 KJV
[17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

How do they hold "truth" in unrighteousness? You ask a very valid question. I am glad to see you posted and shared your POV!

 

[Armadillo]

well, imo it is the diff in faith and belief. If you believe in Jesus, you likely also believe you cannot sin, etc., misinterpreting those vvv as automatically applying somehow also--what we could also define as a "psychopath" iow--If you have faith in Christ, you demonstrate it by recognizing and expressing remorse when you sin, and you rebound, or at least try.

If I'm psycho, so be it and for the second part you are describing repentance which I fully agree with but not all agree on what repentance is.

 

[bbyrd009]

If I'm psycho, so be it

well, 1 i did not say that, and 2 "psycho" as often refers to "psychotic" as "psychopathic," so there is some wiggle there too.

"So be it?" yikes? lol

 

[bbyrd009]

and for the second part you are describing repentance which I fully agree with but not all agree on what repentance is.

i guess--how "i'm sorry, i was wrong" can be so occluded is beyond me, but yes.
Personally i would get away from the definition of "repentance" myself, as that is a Catholic word, intimating "penance," which i guess Catholics still do.
There is no penance in rebound, penance implies punishment, etc.

 

[KBCid]

Chosen in Hebrew is election in English. To say we are the chosen, the elect, is to show that we, the elect, the chosen, are not an accident but a predetermined act of God and before Adam sinned God had a plan to purchase us with His blood. The line in the sand is if you believe in His Son, you do or you don't.

Your answer does not pose a reply to my post.
The people who were rejected most assuredly believed Jesus was the Christ.
I would also point out that your reply that if "the elect" are predetermined then why would God call any others? Your logic is flawed since it makes God out to be one who is telling people to do things when it really doesn't matter since the elect are already set. What a waste of time it is for God to call anyone other than those already chosen from the foundation of the world.
lol.

 

[Helen]

How do they hold "truth" in unrighteousness? You ask a very valid question. I am glad to see you posted and shared your POV!

I can only say as I see it.

I believe "holding the truth in unrighteousness" could well be what Jesus accused the leaders of ..." 52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. " Withholding truth.

And of the Pharisees- "All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. "

To me..knowing and holding truth..and not willing to share it...but piously "living my own holy life" is indeed "holding the truth in unrighteousness".
The overflowing giving heart is God's kind of heart.
Even the very attitudes that- " I have truth that you don't have" is not the spirit of Christ.
I remember many years ago, a lady preacher came into the group where we lived ..She stood up, opened her bible and said:-
"I have so much to share with you, deep things that the Lord has showed me...but I can't share them, because none of you could understand it"

1. It was NOT "her word" to share or withhold , it was GOD'S word!!
2. It is not with our intellect that we understand...it is by the Spirit...He breaks a message down to bite sized pieces to the level of each persons need.
IF she even had a "special word" ( which I doubt) she is not the judge, but only the messenger. (most of us guessed that she had nothing special and was covering up the fact that she could only share a boring mediocre message that day! lol ) She just showed her Pharisaical attitude to one and all, I am more spiritual than you."

These are just my own opinions on those scriptures.

 

[Armadillo]

"So be it?" yikes? lol

 

[Armadillo]

Your answer does not pose a reply to my post.

O well, I tried.

 

[bbyrd009]

The people who were rejected most assuredly believed Jesus was the Christ.

ya, i'm just a believer myself, i guess

 

[KBCid]

ya, i'm just a believer myself, i guess

Why else would you argue for Christ except you believe?
Now don't take this as a reference to you cause its not but, the devils also believe right? and it could be considered possible that they are working through human agency to sow error among the truth just to make any truth seem chaotic /error right?
I get that feeling from some posters.

 

[Richard_oti]

Wouldn't that be in knowing truth ( Truth) but not living in it? ( Him)

Indubitably! Could we also further that by saying: According to His ways, rather than our own?

 

[Richard_oti]

Falling short.

Indeed. But if I may: Falling short according to / by what "measure" or "standard"?

 

[Richard_oti]

They sought the approval of man instead of God. Their reward was the praise of men.

I view it as iniquity because they are labeled hypocrites and heathens.

But that's just my opinion...

And a good opinion it is. I would even say that it should be included as a part of the whole of the matter.

 

[Richard_oti]

Children of disobedience.

Please son, I never asked you to do it, so why are you doing it, than you expect me to bless you for it???

Eph_2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Indeed. And, from the text, it would appear that they thought they knew Him, and were doing works of Him. As you point out, while they may have thought as much, they were "children of disobedience". Any insight as to the difference?

 

[Richard_oti]

Only "iniquity" that would merit a response as this: He already gave us the answer:

"You that work iniquity" because "I never knew you". Their sin is not covered. They never accepted His blood as their covering even though they take His name (in vain). Their works are their cover.

So would it be fair to say that Jesus never knew them for reason such as:

John 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

And:

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you.

John 14:17 KJV
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Indeed. Which goes on:

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.

Psalm 25:10-11 KJV
[10] All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies. [11] For thy name's sake, O Lord , pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.

Indeed. I am curious since you quoted that as to how it speaks to you, for we may be reading it, and yet not seeing / hearing it in the same manner.

 

[Richard_oti]

Jesus said, "I never knew you" to those that did not believe in Him and for those that believe in Him, there is no rejection.

They clearly thought they believed, which is clear from their words. They thought they knew Jesus, but Jesus clearly did not acknowledge them.

The sin is unbelief

Indeed. I am curious, what to you is "unbelief"? Is it merely being such as an atheist? Or is there more to it? In your opinion, can someone think they "believe", yet actually be "unbelieving"?

and those who believe don't live under the power of sin, Romans 6:14 and those that believe have fulfilled the will of the Father, Matthew 7:21, John 6:29 and will not be rejected, 2 Timothy 2:13.

The Matthew 7:21 reference says "doeth the will". What is the "do" and the "will" in your opinion?

 

[Richard_oti]

Romans 1:17-18 KJV
[17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

How do they hold "truth" in unrighteousness? You ask a very valid question. I am glad to see you posted and shared your POV!

Excellent question VictoryinJesus!

 

[bbyrd009]

Why else would you argue for Christ except you believe?

because i've seen the definition of "believe" change in my lifetime, kelli, from "i think," the way it was used when i was a kid, to a poor analogue of "faith." And "faith" has come to mean "denomination." So while it is just a semantics discussion now, it strikes me as quite pervasive, even translations writing out the words "faith" in many spots...

and it might be put like this; if you are two, or three, as Scripture portrays us being, then faith can be illustrated as coming from all three, or conviction--mind, heart, and gut being the three--whereas belief only requires one or even two, see. Not sure how fam you might be with this understanding, it used to be taught more, but i don't see it much now. Scripture refers to the third as "intestines" or "bowels." "Be sure in your own mind" is a reference to this. Whatever you do, do it from faith, Romans 14:23 et al.

but see if "faith" means "denomination" how that gets messed up.

I believe Jesus died for my sins; yet i am assured that "No Son of Man may die for the sins of another." which i'm getting ahead of myself now, but the point is that you cannot ignore the truth of the 2nd one just because you have embraced the 1st one, imo. If my belief has not caused a change in my faith, which is that part of my self that i (am supposed to) use for decision making, then what good is it?

And the counterfeit is that if my belief has caused me to actually shut down a part of my faith, oh, say, to shut my brain off because of the apparent lack of logical sense, then i have essentially been mesmerized, and "life more abundantly" can now be turned into "i can't wait to be absent my body, so i can be present with the Lord," or "Jesus is not quite finished yet after all" or "i'm saved, so i can no longer sin" seems to be the latest one.

and (i do go on, huh, lol) i discovered a year or so ago that Scripture (is not Word) provides the replies to any "logical" arguments from It for a reason (we can endlessly argue for or against any logical position in Scripture)...and so this doesn't get any longer, i'll just say that now we're back to not ignoring "No Son of Man may die for another's sins," and how we "Believers" essentially reject this truth, completely. Because we "believe" that Jesus came to hang on a cross like a snake on a pole to cover our sins so that God would not be mad at us any more, ignoring "Who told you that you were naked?" and a bunch of other Scripture in the process, see.

ps, we might also see how we got all these ppl who believe that Bible is Word, but do not or can not even recognize half, or likely more than half, of that very same Bible. I mean just cannot even see the verse. Just start a thread on "No Son of Man..." and see how many posts get made in it lol. Sry for the rant lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Now don't take this as a reference to you cause its not but, the devils also believe right?

oh, that could easily be me, prolly is, i need brothers/witnesses/accusers as much as the next guy. Anyway yes, they also believe. But if you go look there, the word used is actually "faith," they have faith. Took me a while to grasp that one.

and it could be considered possible that they are working through human agency to sow error among the truth just to make any truth seem chaotic /error right?
I get that feeling from some posters.

but you did get that feeling then, right? So iow you are not deceived, for whatever reason; you have either already been down that hallway, or you are currently prevented from going down that hallway due to some belief; the fact that they fail in discussion (in your opinion) being a biggie i guess. Note that their "error" is truth to them, though, unless you are convinced that they are intentionally lying, which imo is not usually the case. They are usually deceived, right, or at least that is our assessment in the moment.

Imo the way to tell is to either (lightly) offend them, or portray being offended by them, and see if the first one is even possible, or if the second one elicits an apology. That is kind of a shotgun way to tell, and i guess after i got the hang of it i didn't even have to do that any more, because the signs just became clear, haughtiness, overuse of words that only God should use, "never, always, everyone, no one" like that, but a point here is that even conclusively destroying their argument is not the way--well, maybe it is the way, but it is sufficient to let the truth speak there, and we don't have to go any further, to the point of "pulling" them, or iow demeaning them or the false belief intentionally. Better to proverbially give them enough alcohol to get sick on, if they are curious about alcohol, to use an analogy here.

Not that i am any good at this myself yet lol, i am still too personally attached to my own beliefs sometimes.

I would give them all the rope they need in discussion, and when their logical argument fails, or iow when they have ignored "No Son of Man may die..." for the second or third time, and they are now...their spirit is now revealed, and they have changed on you, assumed a superior position or whatever, then see what you will see, and trust that others will, too. you don't even have to try to "pull" them, that just makes you look bad anyway i guess. Counterfeits are just...adolescent kids, i guess. Needed, at least for now.

Still get those weird fleeting thoughts that you wouldn't even think of acting on? have they gone away?