"I never knew you: depart from me, you that work inquity."

[Richard_oti]

Anyway yes, they also believe. But if you go look there, the word used is actually "faith," they have faith. Took me a while to grasp that one.

The primary difference in most translations, is that belief is from a verb, and faith from a noun. We could also consider apistos, which is usually rendered "unbelief / unbelieving", but as a noun, it is the "not" of pistos. Symmetric : asymmetric etc., etc..

Another aspect:

Mark 1:24 What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are-the Holy One of God!

Luke 4:34 Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are-the Holy One of God!

Compare:

John 6:69 We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.

BTW: Good post.

 

[Richard_oti]

don't guess this will be much use to most ppl, but dogs only act from faith, and you can even see them refrain from acting if all three are not lined up. Iow faith is not "i really, really believe Jesus is coming," or even "i really really believe there is a God," faith is not even a religious thing at all, it is a bodily condition, involving the intestines even

Your point known and taken. For it is more than just head and heart.

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
Most people are as you say "their error is truth to them".

With which I also must concur. Thus, how much of my "truth" may be error? Guess that depends upon who you ask.

The evil spirits exert their influence to incline men to believe a lie and they know that men will die for a belief.

Do not forget:

2Th 2:10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: 12 that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[mjrhealth]

And "faith" has come to mean "denomination."

Faith will always be faith, no matter what men try turn it into, its meaning will never change, even if mens ideas of what it is does.

 

[mjrhealth]

With which I also must concur. Thus, how much of my "truth" may be error? Guess that depends upon who you ask.

Well how can a man know he is lying if he doesnt know the truth. Now if he knew the truth but deliberately lied thats a different story.

 

[bbyrd009]

ah, imo we have a simple, but breathtakingly unsatisfying perspective for this, that i personally embrace wholeheartedly;

i am not telling you any truth, and i cannot tell you any truth, and you should not believe a word that i am saying.

 

[amadeus]

Well how can a man know he is lying if he doesnt know the truth. Now if he knew the truth but deliberately lied thats a different story.

This is why we must love the truth even any part of it which we do not know.

To me this means that daily I should be turning it all over to the Lord again and asking Him to show me the right pathway and give me the right understanding and to let me lean even more heavily on Him. Sometimes even when I have failed Him miserably He will nevertheless open my eyes to see something I had not seen before.

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

 

[bbyrd009]

This is why we must love the truth even any part of it which we do not know.

nice. Christ illuminates truth in a very strange way, imo, telling ppl that he already knew would be offended, in the most offensive way possible, to "drink His blood," while not actually offering anyone any blood, at any time. Pure literary/verbal offense, iow.

like, "Understand what I am saying, or be mortally offended; the truth will not change here."

 

[KBCid]

With which I also must concur. Thus, how much of my "truth" may be error? Guess that depends upon who you ask.
Do not forget:
2Th 2:10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: 12 that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Without a standard to divide truth from error then the words would have no meaning but we do have a standard.... The father made sure that we were given His two standards of existence to help us make that division.
That verse is a very telling verse. It shows that when one finds their pleasure in doing unrighteousness that truth becomes a moveable line in the sand for them just as the law to honor mother and father was abrogated by the tradition of men.

"a working of error".....
John Chrysostom Archbishop of Constantinople, (Early Church Father 354-430)
In his “First Homily Against the Jews”, Chrysostom insisted that, “Jews are dogs, stiff-necked, gluttonous, drunkards. They are beasts unfit for work… The Jews had fallen into a condition lower than the vilest animals… The synagogue is worse than a brothel and a drinking shop; it is a den of scoundrels, a temple of demons, the cavern of devils, a criminal assembly of the assassins of Christ…. I hate the Jews, because they violate the Law… It is the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews.”
John Chrysostom - Wikipedia

Thus, people were enticed to abrogate the command to love our neighbor if that neighbor is Jewish.... obviously a Jew cannot be your neighbor in Gods view if they are "demons" right?

 

[pia]

Well how can a man know he is lying if he doesnt know the truth. Now if he knew the truth but deliberately lied thats a different story.

This reminds me of the part where Jesus warns the Pharisees of the consequences of claiming to know the truth, when they most obviously did not have understanding ...An apt reminder to anyone here who goes by any other truth than what is revealed by The Lord Himself, which is without a doubt, the only truth we can be in the least bit assured of....Also when He reveals it thought His Holy Spirit, He will always confirm it for us, so it is always best to rest in Him until an appropriate moment to share it with other believers comes about, although a lot of people who say they believe, seem to have trouble in understanding that He speaks today, as He has always done.
Beware taking the role of a teacher of other believers, particularly if you have nothing but hearsay and old written accounts to back up what you think.....Btw, believers do not need teachers, they have the one and only teacher required, The Holy Spirit........People who have not heard before, could do with what we term 'teachers' to let them know about Jesus, but it is a strange structure indeed mankind have invented around Faith in Christ, the odd hierarchy, which itself goes against how Jesus said it was to be among them ( those who believed in Him ). The 'leaders' in their fine purple and scarlet silk robes, always getting the best seats...all their fine jewellery and pretty buildings, while masses die daily for the lack of a cup of water...A very twisted outcome from a loving Jesus, who tried to teach us the true Way...

 

[Richard_oti]

Well how can a man know he is lying if he doesnt know the truth. Now if he knew the truth but deliberately lied thats a different story.

We also have a little matter called perspective, which was my point. For that which I hold as "truth", you may consider a lie.


"It is usual for the sacred historian to conform himself to the generally accepted opinion of the masses in his time." - Jerome, P.L., XXVI, 98; XXIV, 855.

"There is nothing so easy as by sheer volubility to deceive a common crowd or an uneducated congregation." - Jerome, Epistle to Nepotian, Lii, 8.

 

[Richard_oti]

Without a standard to divide truth from error then the words would have no meaning

Indubitably.

<snip>

Thus, people were enticed to abrogate the command to love our neighbor if that neighbor is Jewish.... obviously a Jew cannot be your neighbor in Gods view if they are "demons" right?

The more I know of history, the more I realize just how blissful is ignorance.

 

[mjrhealth]

We also have a little matter called perspective, which was my point. For that which I hold as "truth", you may consider a lie.


"It is usual for the sacred historian to conform himself to the generally accepted opinion of the masses in his time." - Jerome, P.L., XXVI, 98; XXIV, 855.

"There is nothing so easy as by sheer volubility to deceive a common crowd or an uneducated congregation." - Jerome, Epistle to Nepotian, Lii, 8.

Far easier to convince a crowd of a lie if you have a crowd following you.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Your answer does not pose a reply to my post.
The people who were rejected most assuredly believed Jesus was the Christ.
I would also point out that your reply that if "the elect" are predetermined then why would God call any others? Your logic is flawed since it makes God out to be one who is telling people to do things when it really doesn't matter since the elect are already set. What a waste of time it is for God to call anyone other than those already chosen from the foundation of the world.
lol.

Deuteronomy 5:16 KJV
[16] Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Are the ten commandments flesh, or did Jesus say he that hates brother in his heart, is guilty of murder?

If you are born of God: Who then is your Father and Mother?


Matthew 15:4 KJV
[4] For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Luke 14:26 KJV
[26] If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 12:31-32 KJV
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. [32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Proverbs 30:17 KJV
[17] The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens(the unclean birds) of the valley(in the shadow of death) shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.

 

[ScottA]

Where is the line in the sand that God has drawn between the called and saved vs. the called and rejected.

That dividing line is, those who hear, or do not hear His voice: the seed that falls upon good or rocky soil.

 

[Richard_oti]

it is a bodily condition, involving the intestines even

Your point known and taken. For it is more than just head and heart.

The movie "Ghost" comes to mind, the subway scene where Patrick Swayze is attempting to move an object.

The subway ghost says something along the lines of: "If you wanna move something, you've gotta focus. All your love, all your hate, push it down into the pit of your stomach ... "

 

[Taken]

One of the most debatable verses in the word of God: I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I don't see a great issue of debate.

Men not having heartfully submitted to Christ the Lord, was USING His NAME to perform miracles.

The Lords Name does have the Power to perform miracles.

However a man NOT in Christ, was committing sin, BY USING HIS NAME, while NOT being committed to Him.

How do we know they were NOT committed?
Jesus tells us plainly; He never Knew them.

And Scripture tells us plainly; The Lord DOES know, they who are WITH Him.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

One of the most debatable verses in the word of God: I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:22-24 KJV
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

"I never knew you"
"Knew" As in an intimate way. Genesis 4:1 "And Adam knew Eve..." in an intimate way. I never knew you meaning: My Spirit is not there. My Spirit does not inhabit you. My Spirit has not entered into you. You have not been born of God.

We read immediately after the Lords debated words..."Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

A spiritual rock: that rock being Christ.

Those spoken of in Matthew 7: 22-24 Use their works as justification. "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works"

Yet in Matthew there is another peculiar people spoken of: Matthew 25:34-40 KJV
[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Those "in Christ" have works they know not of. Why? Because Christ worked through them. The Spirit of God worked their works; they rested "in Christ". If I can explain it this way: in a relationship of love we care for the needs of those that we love... naturally.

There is no work involved.

We just do. There is no labor, no boasting needed. That is what relationship is...being accountable to someone because you choose to be and naturally want to see to their needs. You love them. You want to see them happy and well and cared for. It is not a burden.

Then there is the others that boast in their works: obligation.
Haughtiness and pride... because you are obligated to see to the needs of another. It is work. A burden. It is work for the person doing the work to be able to say they have fulfilled an obligation, rather than an act of genuine love. It is heavy labor which makes a person defend themselves and their actions by stating "Have I not slaved for you?" Give me what I earned.

Again, consider the implication: "Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?"

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

The verse clearly shows there is a work one is to 'doeth' in order to enter into the kingdom and that work is doing the will of God, doing God's righteousness (doing what God said is right to do). Those that Jesus never knew are lost for NOT having done God's will/God's righteousness but instead were trying to save themselves by doing their own self-righteous works. Just as those lost Jews Paul speaks of in Romans 10:3 who were lost because they went about doing their own righteousness and had not obeyed the righteous commands of God.

So there is a work that saves (doing God's righteousness) and works that do not save in doing one's own righteousness in an attempt to merit salvation.

Each of us are doing a work, we are either working unrighteousness in NOT doing the will of God, NOT obeying God's righteous commands or we are working God's righteousness (Acts 10:35). There is no inbetween.

In Romans 6:16 Paul puts it this way, each of us are serving either
1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteouness

No inbetween, no other options than these two.

Which are you engaged in: work of sin unto death or are you being obedient unto righteousness?

(Any man made theology that rules out "obedience unto righteousness" should be totally thoroughly rejected for it only leaves a bad option)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

. Just as those lost Jews Paul speaks of in Romans 10:3 who were lost because they went about doing their own righteousness and had not obeyed the righteous commands of God.[/QUOTE

What are the righteous commands of God?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What are the righteous commands of God?

To be saved one must obey God by believing, repentance, confession, being baptized. Then after becoming a Christian, one must do good works and live faithfully unto death [Rom 10:9-10; Acts 2:38; Eph 2:10; Rev 2:10]

Again, the Jews were lost for not having obeyed the righteous commands of God, Rom 10:3, they had not obeyed by believing, confessing, had not obeyed the gospel. God has made it clear in His word what men are to do in order to be saved and remained saved. God has not left us in the dark concerning His will for man to do.