I think the crucifix is a Satanic, twisted, perverted, counterfeit, trophy of the cross

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Ronald David Bruno

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What makes you think the cross is holy? Does the bible say that somewhere? Just curious.

I don't honor the killing of God's son. He chose to sacrifice himself. But Jesus made it known that those that betrayed him were cursed.
Right, the cross came before Christ. It was worse then any form of torture. It meant death and to look at it with someone on it or even just their blood on it was a horrifying sight.
I don't wear a crucifix never have. People wear one to identify themselves as believers, it's fine. But there is nothing Satanic about a crucifix only if they distort it and wear it upside down. The act of murder is Satanic ... an unjust killing. But Jesus sacrificed His life willingly. He paid the penalty for sins - so justice was served. Actually the resurrection was more important but there is no symbol we could wear for that ... an empty tomb?
 
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Behold

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Many false religions have a form of a cross as the front for that religion. False christian religions stood on both sides of ww2, they even killed their own supposed brothers in Christ who stood on the other side for Mr. Hitler. The clergy prayed to the same God on both sides( pure hypocrisy) and as well told both sides God was on their side= pure darkness-not Jesus that is for sure.
Jesus = Love, peace, unity
Antichrist = hate, war, division--- All of creation saw who those fake christian religions backed.
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Gilligan

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And Hitler's Troops had it on their uniforms and Flag.
The Iron Cross is a military medal, not the cross of Christ.

Hitler took this symbol from Teutonic symbols in '1920.
Teutonic knights were German Christians, warriors of Christianity,
Correct. And their cross on the shield was for Christ.

The Swastika used by Hitler, corrupted the swastika of Hinduism, which means good and well being. He was not mocking the cross, but sought to tap into ancient eastern spiritism.

The f for facebook, means f.
 

Keiw

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Nazi leadership was godless. My guess is that most of the SS people working at the death camps were also godless, aka atheist.
Actually Catholicism leaders signed the concordance with Hitler to put him into power. So he wouldn't attack them, and they feared Russia at the time as well. Italy was communist then. Mussolini was the leader. They allowed the young men to kill for him, kill the members of their own religion that stood on the allied side. As did other protestant religions. Yes they were godless and all who supported them were as well.
 

Illuminator

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Actually Catholicism leaders signed the concordance with Hitler to put him into power. So he wouldn't attack them, and they feared Russia at the time as well. Italy was communist then. Mussolini was the leader. They allowed the young men to kill for him, kill the members of their own religion that stood on the allied side. As did other protestant religions. Yes they were godless and all who supported them were as well.
Pope Pius XI signed a concord with Germany to secure the rights of Christians in the country, because the Vatican recognized what a threat Hitler and his henchmen were to religious liberty. This was not an endorsement of the Nazi Party or its philosophy (it may be remembered that America also had treaties with Germany before the war broke out).

When Hitler went back on the deal and began abrogating the civil rights of Christians, the Vatican responded by issuing the only encyclical ever written in German (Mit Brennender Sorge or "With Burning Anxiety"), concerning the horrors of the National Socialist German state. This encyclical was smuggled into Germany (it would never have been allowed in, had the Nazis known it was coming) and read at all the parishes on the same day.

The Encyclopedia of Catholic History (by Matthew Bunson) notes: "the encyclical was a strong denunciation of Nazism, noting that the Nazis had broken several points of the concordat and were actively involved in anti-Catholic and anti-Christian programs, such as the removal of the OT [Old Testament] from schools and the promotion of the so-called German National Church. The encyclical was read from the pulpit of every German church on March 21, 1937" (p. 563).
source

google "Mit Brennender Sorge" for a long list of scholarly sources
This subject deserves it's own thread, it's fascinating because it relates to the 100% accurate prophecies of Fatima in 1917 and the current war in Ukraine. Keiw, your anti-Catholic bias has put you to sleep. Have you heard of Putin?
 
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Illuminator

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Q: A Protestant told me that we shouldn't have crucifixes, but bare crosses, because we are to worship Jesus risen, not Jesus crucified, and because he is no longer on the cross. What do you think of this argument?

A:
It is difficult to take this position seriously because it is so patently absurd. The arguments used to support it are not the real reason the use of crucifixes is opposed. The arguments offered above are just rationalizations which distract from the real reason; they are a smoke screen of post-Reformation rhetoric.

The real reason Protestants oppose crucifixes is that the crucifix is a three-dimensional image of the crucifixion-including Jesus. Protestants have no problem with two-dimensional images of the crucifixion. If you read their children's Bible-story books, you will find lots of two-dimensional pictures of the crucifixion. But if one goes from two to three dimensions, suddenly it becomes an unallowable image of Jesus-an idol which people are going to worship, thinking it is the real Jesus who is in heaven. Give me a break!

Having said that, let us address the arguments offered above for the anti-crucifix position. First, there is the issue of when to worship Jesus-when he is being crucified or when he is risen-this is a total red herring. Jesus is to be worshipped both when he is being crucified and when he is risen. The reason is that he is God both times. He must be worshipped all through the Incarnation-before, during, and after the crucifixion. The arrogant boast "We worship Jesus risen, not crucified" is, taken literally, an expression of a grossly defective Christology.

It also fails to give proper significance to the event of the crucifixion. It was not the resurrection which paid the price of our sins. Christ paid the price for those on the cross. Thus Paul tells the Corinthians: "When I came to you, brethren, I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God in lofty words or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:1-2, RSV).

The message of the crucifixion of Christ, which paid the price for our sins and paved the way for Christ's resurrection, was the center of Paul's message, and it is simply arrogant posturing that has a "holier-than-Paul" attitude to suggest that the focus should not be kept on the crucifixion and that we should only honor Jesus in his raised form and not also honor the memory of what he did on the cross.

In fact, remembering and commemorating the crucifixion is the whole purpose of having a cross in the first place. Christians-Protestants included-do not look at crosses to remind themselves that Jesus is no longer there. They look at crosses to remind themselves of what Jesus did there.

It is thus entirely natural to depict Jesus as being there when we wish to remember what he did on the cross, as illustrated by all the two-dimensional representations of the crucifixion that one finds in Protestant books. If it wasn't for the knee-jerk, paranoid reaction they often feel around three-dimensional images, Protestants themselves would never make three-dimensional crosses without a corpus for any reason except convenience-the same reason Catholics sometimes have corpus-less crosses.

As to the ridiculous argument that Jesus is not on the cross now, several things may be pointed out.
First, if you want to worship Jesus where he is now then you ought not be looking at a cross at all.
Second, the cross on which Jesus died is not standing now, so you are automatically looking at a representation of a cross that stood in the past-again distancing the remembrance from where Jesus is now.
And third, there probably never was a time when Jesus' cross stood without his body on it.

The sequence went one of two ways.
  1. Either the whole cross was laid on the ground, Jesus was nailed to it, it was raised, and then when Jesus was dead the whole cross was taken down so that his body might be removed-meaning that nothing was left standing--or
  2. the sequence went like this: Jesus, on the ground, was nailed to the crossbeam, which was then raised and hung on the vertical shaft and his feet were nailed, then, after he was dead, the crossbeam was unhung from the cross and his body brought down like that, leaving only the vertical shaft of the cross standing.
We sometimes see artistic representations of Jesus being taken down from a standing cross, but those are archetypal, not historical images.

Thus Jesus' cross probably never stood without his body on it after he had been crucified (especially since Joseph of Arimathea kept it as it had been standing in his garden, where his tomb was [cf. John 19:38-41, Matt. 27:59-60], and it was afterward venerated by the early Christians). Thus, if one has a cross that lacks a corpus for any reason other than convenience, one is representing and "remembering" a circumstance that probably never happened.

source
 
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Illuminator

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I apologize got the long post, it's bad forum etiquette, but lies from Hislopites infuriates me. That's a weakness on my part.
"Actually Catholicism leaders signed the concordance with Hitler to put him into power."
Y
up, and actually Jesuits are responsible for the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, earthquakes (Seismology, science of earthquakes was actually started by a Jesuit), and teenage acne.
 

Keiw

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Pope Pius XI signed a concord with Germany to secure the rights of Christians in the country, because the Vatican recognized what a threat Hitler and his henchmen were to religious liberty. This was not an endorsement of the Nazi Party or its philosophy (it may be remembered that America also had treaties with Germany before the war broke out).

When Hitler went back on the deal and began abrogating the civil rights of Christians, the Vatican responded by issuing the only encyclical ever written in German (Mit Brennender Sorge or "With Burning Anxiety"), concerning the horrors of the National Socialist German state. This encyclical was smuggled into Germany (it would never have been allowed in, had the Nazis known it was coming) and read at all the parishes on the same day.

The Encyclopedia of Catholic History (by Matthew Bunson) notes: "the encyclical was a strong denunciation of Nazism, noting that the Nazis had broken several points of the concordat and were actively involved in anti-Catholic and anti-Christian programs, such as the removal of the OT [Old Testament] from schools and the promotion of the so-called German National Church. The encyclical was read from the pulpit of every German church on March 21, 1937" (p. 563).
source

google "Mit Brennender Sorge" for a long list of scholarly sources
This subject deserves it's own thread, it's fascinating because it relates to the 100% accurate prophecies of Fatima in 1917 and the current war in Ukraine. Keiw, your anti-Catholic bias has put you to sleep. Have you heard of Putin?


They allowed the young men to kill the members of their own religion on the allied side for Adolf Hitler, even after they saw he was a satanistic, power mad murderer.
Putin is a murderer as well.
Jesus taught-Love, peace, unity-- The NT condemns the slaughtering of one another, no religion headed by Jesus would ever allow it.
 

Patrick1966

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Actually Catholicism leaders signed the concordance with Hitler to put him into power."
You and I have different views on Catholicism but anybody that says that the Catholic Church put or contributed to Hitler attaining power is totally misinformed.
 

Desire Of All Nations

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A picture of Christ's victory is offensive to you!?

Do you not realize what a picture of love this is? He did this for YOU!

For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


And the world stands perplexed...

For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.



Come to Easter Mass and see...

Jesus Christ publicly portrayed as crucified


Christ IS risen! Alleluia!
There is nothing inherently holy about the crucifix. The part that the Bible places emphasis on is what Christ achieved by being nailed to the actual stake that He died on. The problem with traditional Christianity is that relic worship has become big business to the point where the actual importance of Christ's mission takes a back seat.
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The crucifix has become to traditional Christianity what the covenant ark used to be to the Israelites: nothing more than a symbolic good luck charm. God allowed the Israelites in 1 Sam. 4 to get stomped by the Philistines in battle to drive home the point that they ought to be looking to Him and not an object for faith, and the same point is lost on a lot of "Christians" today.

It is situations like this that lead me to completely understand why God outlawed the use of worship aides in His law. Relic worship reduces the truth of who God is and what He is doing to being nothing more than a hazy concept. Ppl like to use objects to symbolize God because they can't see Him, but it completely defeats the whole purpose of having faith if they need something like a crucifix to remind them of what Christ accomplished. That is what the Passover is for, something Christ actually told His followers to observe.
 
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Desire Of All Nations

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The Catholic Church had NOTHING to do with Hitler achieving power. You have been misinformed my brother.
The book Hitler's Pope proves beyond a shadow of a doubt how the Catholic church helped Hitler become chancellor of Germany. The greatest irony about this book is that John Cornwell set out to disprove the allegations of the church colluding with Hitler. But instead of finding information that would prove the church's innocence, Cornwell actually found damning information that connected the church with Hitler.

Archbishop Pacelli endorsed the Nationalist-Nazi-Catholic coalition that helped Hitler become chancellor. Pacelli also convinced the German Catholic Center Party and other members of the German Parliament to vote in support of the Enabling Act that allowed Hitler to rule like a king. This was before Pacelli, Pope Pius XII, and other figures within the Catholic church came together to construct the concordat that eventually married the church to the Third Reich just 4 months later.

The fact that the Catholic church became the Third Reich's de facto propaganda mouthpiece in the religious realm inherently proves its ties to Hitler.

This is all provable and documented history.
 

Patrick1966

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The book Hitler's Pope proves beyond a shadow of a doubt how the Catholic church helped Hitler become chancellor of Germany. The greatest irony about this book is that John Cornwell set out to disprove the allegations of the church colluding with Hitler. But instead of finding information that would prove the church's innocence, Cornwell actually found damning information that connected the church with Hitler.

Archbishop Pacelli endorsed the Nationalist-Nazi-Catholic coalition that helped Hitler become chancellor. Pacelli also convinced the German Catholic Center Party and other members of the German Parliament to vote in support of the Enabling Act that allowed Hitler to rule like a king. This was before Pacelli, Pope Pius XII, and other figures within the Catholic church came together to construct the concordat that eventually married the church to the Third Reich just 4 months later.

The fact that the Catholic church became the Third Reich's de facto propaganda mouthpiece in the religious realm inherently proves its ties to Hitler.

This is all provable and documented history.


That's ridiculous. The Catholic Church had as much the capability to put Hitler in power as Barney the dinosaur.
 
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Illuminator

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The book Hitler's Pope proves beyond a shadow of a doubt how the Catholic church helped Hitler become chancellor of Germany. The greatest irony about this book is that John Cornwell set out to disprove the allegations of the church colluding with Hitler. But instead of finding information that would prove the church's innocence, Cornwell actually found damning information that connected the church with Hitler.

Archbishop Pacelli endorsed the Nationalist-Nazi-Catholic coalition that helped Hitler become chancellor. Pacelli also convinced the German Catholic Center Party and other members of the German Parliament to vote in support of the Enabling Act that allowed Hitler to rule like a king. This was before Pacelli, Pope Pius XII, and other figures within the Catholic church came together to construct the concordat that eventually married the church to the Third Reich just 4 months later.

The fact that the Catholic church became the Third Reich's de facto propaganda mouthpiece in the religious realm inherently proves its ties to Hitler.

This is all provable and documented history.
No, it is not.
John Cornwell’s new book, Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, turns out to be a deeply flawed attack on Pope John Paul II. That’s right, the final chapter is actually an attack on the current pontiff. Cornwell is disturbed by John Paul’s “conservative” positions on celibate clergy, women priests, artificial contraception, and abortion. He is especially concerned about the Pope’s opposition to direct political activity by the clergy.

Cornwell apparently decided that the easiest way to attack the Pope of today was to go after Pius XII. If he can prove that Pius was flawed, then he establishes that popes can be wrong. If that is the case, then he can argue that John Paul II is wrong about the whole catalogue of teachings that tend to upset many modern Catholics.


Ron Rychlak is a Professor of Law and the Associate Dean for Academic Affairs at the University of Mississippi School of Law. His is the author of Hitler, the War, and the Pope.

Desire of All Nations is a professor of anti-Catholic lies.