I was asked to.....

[brightmorningstar]

[sub]tarmac09, [/sub]
[sub]It is called dtestable and wicked in the Biblical testimony of God. [/sub]
[sub]Pork was not allowed under the dietry laws of the OT, but fulfilled in Christ and thus all food is clean in the new covenant. Thats not interpretation but what the Biblical testimony says. Homosexual acts are condemned and excluded in both the OT covenants and laws and the new covenant in Christ. [/sub]
[sub] [/sub]

aspen2,

You make a good point here. You do have the right to vote according to your convictions - absolutely. I have the right to vote according to my convictions and I also have the right to pick up my cross and follow Jesus, daily - no matter who condemns me.

One does have the right and the choice to follow Christ, but thinking the opposite of what Christ taught is not following Him or even seeking to follow Him.

 

[tarmack09]

[sub]tarmac09, [/sub]
[sub]It is called dtestable and wicked in the Biblical testimony of God. [/sub]
[sub]Pork was not allowed under the dietry laws of the OT, but fulfilled in Christ and thus all food is clean in the new covenant. Thats not interpretation but what the Biblical testimony says. Homosexual acts are condemned and excluded in both the OT covenants and laws and the new covenant in Christ. [/sub]
[sub] [/sub]

aspen2,
One does have the right and the choice to follow Christ, but thinking the opposite of what Christ taught is not following Him or even seeking to follow Him.

Not everyone has the pleasure of reading the same bible you do...All I'm saying is that it can be interpreted as being Ok in moderation if you were to actually read the bible. Not everyone is going to stop eating pork and circumcise thier kids like the Jews.

 

[Strat]

thanks for clarifying. I am seeking the same thing. It is difficult for me to view homosexual union as a sin, but also work with many people who are homosexual and attempting to recognize the rights of people who are not Christian.

But more importantly for this thread - is it appropriate to bring politics into a religious environment?

"Politics" is the mechanism of laws and life and all life concerns God,the use of the word "politics" and "political" is just one of Satans many ways in which he seeks to marginalize God and keep him out of the lives of men and women...strange that you would ask if it is appropriate to bring "politics" into religion when you seek to bring at least one aspect of religion (charity) into politics while rejecting holiness and rightousness...it is difficult for you to veiw a Homosexual union as sin ? no suprise there....a Homosexual union where the couple doesn't pay enough taxes or makes too much money....now that i can see you having a hissy fit over.

 

[aspen]

"Politics" is the mechanism of laws and life and all life concerns God,the use of the word "politics" and "political" is just one of Satans many ways in which he seeks to marginalize God and keep him out of the lives of men and women...strange that you would ask if it is appropriate to bring "politics" into religion when you seek to bring at least one aspect of religion (charity) into politics while rejecting holiness and rightousness...it is difficult for you to veiw a Homosexual union as sin ? no suprise there....a Homosexual union where the couple doesn't pay enough taxes or makes too much money....now that i can see you having a hissy fit over.

Apparently, you have chosen to read my post through the lens of your hate. As I stated clearly, homosexuality is a sin. My issue is - is it ok to bring politics into a Christian environment? According to the law - it is not. I felt uncomfortable having to confront the volunteer about not bringing a petition into a ministry. I was wondering if others felt the same way.

[sub]tarmac09, [/sub]
[sub]It is called dtestable and wicked in the Biblical testimony of God. [/sub]
[sub]Pork was not allowed under the dietry laws of the OT, but fulfilled in Christ and thus all food is clean in the new covenant. Thats not interpretation but what the Biblical testimony says. Homosexual acts are condemned and excluded in both the OT covenants and laws and the new covenant in Christ. [/sub]
[sub] [/sub]

aspen2,
One does have the right and the choice to follow Christ, but thinking the opposite of what Christ taught is not following Him or even seeking to follow Him.

um....homosexuality is never singled out

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

It's not appropriate for the church to try to dictate the morals of a society that is not part of God. Eventhough, God has set up the governments and the leaders, It's not for the church to regulate moral laws outside of the church.

Why is it so hard to understand? Gays will be gays regardless of the laws set against it. Now, I wonder....


Is it legal to have sex outside of marriage? Yes. Is it legal for 2 unmarried people to live together? Yes. Is it legal for people to get drunk? Yes. Is it legal to get a divorce for any reason? Yes. Is it legal to have kids by more than one person without being married? Yes.

If we made all these things illegal, what do you think would happen?

It is not the churches place to regulate morals of a godless society. It will not make society more godlike. It will not give back the supposed favor "God once had on this nation."

Like it or not, gays are protected by the same document us Christians are. The Constitution of the United States of America gives expressly written rights to the persuit of happiness. If we want to uphold the Constitution and proclai our rights guaranteed therein, we must allow all others the same rights regardless.

If we as Christians try to enforce our religion through writ of law, other religions will do the same. We frown on Muslims who attempt such, yet we feel we have the right to do the same. You are not condoning homosexuality by it being legal, or signing and not signing a petition. People don't hate the church because we are a light in the world of darkness. They hate the church for the thousands of years of attempting to dictate morals of a society that don't share our own beliefs. We should be more concerned with those who proclaim Jesus Christ and don't follow suit.

The rest of the world is lost, and will continue to be lost regardless of laws.

If you want to discuss this, please leave out the strawman of, "Well, should we let people murder if it makes them happy?" And the like of such.

 

[aspen]

It's not appropriate for the church to try to dictate the morals of a society that is not part of God. Eventhough, God has set up the governments and the leaders, It's not for the church to regulate moral laws outside of the church.

Why is it so hard to understand? Gays will be gays regardless of the laws set against it. Now, I wonder....


Is it legal to have sex outside of marriage? Yes. Is it legal for 2 unmarried people to live together? Yes. Is it legal for people to get drunk? Yes. Is it legal to get a divorce for any reason? Yes. Is it legal to have kids by more than one person without being married? Yes.

If we made all these things illegal, what do you think would happen?

It is not the churches place to regulate morals of a godless society. It will not make society more godlike. It will not give back the supposed favor "God once had on this nation."

Like it or not, gays are protected by the same document us Christians are. The Constitution of the United States of America gives expressly written rights to the persuit of happiness. If we want to uphold the Constitution and proclai our rights guaranteed therein, we must allow all others the same rights regardless.

If we as Christians try to enforce our religion through writ of law, other religions will do the same. We frown on Muslims who attempt such, yet we feel we have the right to do the same. You are not condoning homosexuality by it being legal, or signing and not signing a petition. People don't hate the church because we are a light in the world of darkness. They hate the church for the thousands of years of attempting to dictate morals of a society that don't share our own beliefs. We should be more concerned with those who proclaim Jesus Christ and don't follow suit.

The rest of the world is lost, and will continue to be lost regardless of laws.

If you want to discuss this, please leave out the strawman of, "Well, should we let people murder if it makes them happy?" And the like of such.

I totally agree. Thank you

 

[Strat]

It's not appropriate for the church to try to dictate the morals of a society that is not part of God. Eventhough, God has set up the governments and the leaders, It's not for the church to regulate moral laws outside of the church.

Why is it so hard to understand? Gays will be gays regardless of the laws set against it. Now, I wonder....


Is it legal to have sex outside of marriage? Yes. Is it legal for 2 unmarried people to live together? Yes. Is it legal for people to get drunk? Yes. Is it legal to get a divorce for any reason? Yes. Is it legal to have kids by more than one person without being married? Yes.

If we made all these things illegal, what do you think would happen?

It is not the churches place to regulate morals of a godless society. It will not make society more godlike. It will not give back the supposed favor "God once had on this nation."

Like it or not, gays are protected by the same document us Christians are. The Constitution of the United States of America gives expressly written rights to the persuit of happiness. If we want to uphold the Constitution and proclai our rights guaranteed therein, we must allow all others the same rights regardless.

If we as Christians try to enforce our religion through writ of law, other religions will do the same. We frown on Muslims who attempt such, yet we feel we have the right to do the same. You are not condoning homosexuality by it being legal, or signing and not signing a petition. People don't hate the church because we are a light in the world of darkness. They hate the church for the thousands of years of attempting to dictate morals of a society that don't share our own beliefs. We should be more concerned with those who proclaim Jesus Christ and don't follow suit.

The rest of the world is lost, and will continue to be lost regardless of laws.

If you want to discuss this, please leave out the strawman of, "Well, should we let people murder if it makes them happy?" And the like of such.

I agree,people should be free to live as they please...and face the consequences without anybody being forced to share and/or finance them.I have no right to force my morality on anyone and like wise they have no ligitimate claim on my resources to pay the consequences when they come.

Apparently, you have chosen to read my post through the lens of your hate. As I stated clearly, homosexuality is a sin. My issue is - is it ok to bring politics into a Christian environment? According to the law - it is not. I felt uncomfortable having to confront the volunteer about not bringing a petition into a ministry. I was wondering if others felt the same way.



um....homosexuality is never singled out

Aspen,please use some other worn out liberal excuse for intolerance of dissent other than "hate"...it makes you look like a whinny little girl with her panties in a twist because she thinks she's important or influencial enough to matter that much.

 

[tarmack09]

I really don't have a problem with gays in the church.. and it doesn't make me gay or a weaker man!

 

[brightmorningstar]

tarmac09,

Not everyone has the pleasure of reading the same bible you do...

None of the Bibles support what you are saying, all the Bibles support what I am saying.

All I'm saying is that it can be interpreted as being Ok in moderation if you were to actually read the bible.

Thats not interpretation on your part but unbelief and denial. If you read the Bible you will see from what it says, same sex relations, that is man with man instead of woman, there are no other sexes, is not the natural and is error and detestable.
Man with man instead of woman is an either/or.

I really don't have a problem with gays in the church..

But you aren’t God. God’s word shows no recognition of people as ‘gays’. God sees men and woman He created for His purposes, if you are seeing those people as gays you are not seeing who God has created.

aspen2, [

um....homosexuality is never singled out.

irrevelant. The problem is that you dont accept the word of God that says it is detestable and error, if you did you wouldnt say it is difficult for you to view homosexual 'union' as sin as though your view might be better than God's.
So believers should not be debating personal views contrary to God's, that will get none of us anywhere, especially when the personal views are disputable. In Romans 1 of course homosexuality is kind of singled out along with idolotry before all the other error is listed.

Your approach is typical liberal, argue around the issue with a view to ending up in confusion with the impression its undecided or up for compromise. It isnt. Homosexuality is described as a barrier to the Kingdom, preach the rest of the gospel with that error and one no longer has the gospel.

Who is seeing hate here? Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. And this isnt about 'gays', its about faith in God and His word.

 

[aspen]

tarmac09,
None of the Bibles support what you are saying, all the Bibles support what I am saying.
Thats not interpretation on your part but unbelief and denial. If you read the Bible you will see from what it says, same sex relations, that is man with man instead of woman, there are no other sexes, is not the natural and is error and detestable.
Man with man instead of woman is an either/or.
But you aren’t God. God’s word shows no recognition of people as ‘gays’. God sees men and woman He created for His purposes, if you are seeing those people as gays you are not seeing who God has created.

aspen2, [
irrevelant. The problem is that you dont accept the word of God that says it is detestable and error, if you did you wouldnt say it is difficult for you to view homosexual 'union' as sin as though your view might be better than God's.
So believers should not be debating personal views contrary to God's, that will get none of us anywhere, especially when the personal views are disputable. In Romans 1 of course homosexuality is kind of singled out along with idolotry before all the other error is listed.

Your approach is typical liberal, argue around the issue with a view to ending up in confusion with the impression its undecided or up for compromise. It isnt. Homosexuality is described as a barrier to the Kingdom, preach the rest of the gospel with that error and one no longer has the gospel.

Who is seeing hate here? Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. And this isnt about 'gays', its about faith in God and His word.

You mean that I am dealing with reality, rather than a black and white ideal? I agree.

 

[Strat]

You mean that I am dealing with reality, rather than a black and white ideal? I agree.

You mean that I am dealing with reality, rather than a black and white ideal? I agree.

What a load,a typical liberal hugging and kissing himself....get a room.

 

[aspen]

nice....

 

[Strat]

nice....

Sorry...but liberals fawning all over themselves gets old after awhile....you talk about reality as if you created it....you didn't,God did and he has set the rules that govern it,you don't like the rules so you pretend they don't exist.There have been times when i didn't like the rules either so instead of breaking them i broke myself over them...guess you are not there yet.....Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin,not to save us in our sin....that we may continue to live in and practise sin,that makes a mockery of the holiness of God....but then i guess your choice of what you define as sin and not what God defines as sin can confuse you.

 

[aspen]

Sorry...but liberals fawning all over themselves gets old after awhile....you talk about reality as if you created it....you didn't,God did and he has set the rules that govern it,you don't like the rules so you pretend they don't exist.There have been times when i didn't like the rules either so instead of breaking them i broke myself over them...guess you are not there yet.....Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin,not to save us in our sin....that we may continue to live in and practise sin,that makes a mockery of the holiness of God....but then i guess your choice of what you define as sin and not what God defines as sin can confuse you.

You are so full of yourself! As if your take on reality is accurate! LOL

Look, I deal with real people everyday. I do not just sit behind my computer and dole out judgment based on my own understanding of the Bible, all day. You are full of hate, friend. You could out judge a Pharisee, that is for sure.

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

You mean that I am dealing with reality, rather than a black and white ideal? I agree.

Your thinking is unreality and in denial, and I can
swap opinions with you all day my friend, but care to address the points put to you?
That you dont agree with God's position on homosexual relations is up to you but this is a Christian forum for believers, so take it somewhere else. You have heard the truth here, whether you accept it is up to you.

aspen2,

Look, I deal with real people everyday.

So do I. So whats your point?

I do not just sit behind my computer and dole out judgment based on my own understanding of the Bible, all day.

yes you do, thats exactl;y what you have been doing.

You are full of hate, friend. You could out judge a Pharisee, that is for sure.

the only person who has mentioned hate is you, out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.

 

[aspen]

aspen2,
Your thinking is unreality and in denial, and I can
swap opinions with you all day my friend, but care to address the points put to you?
That you dont agree with God's position on homosexual relations is up to you but this is a Christian forum for believers, so take it somewhere else. You have heard the truth here, whether you accept it is up to y

Reading comprehension is obviously a challenge for you. I have clearly stated that homosexuality is a sin. And I have been posting here for years - I do not need some new guy telling me that I am not welcome here - unbelievable!

aspen2,
So do I. So whats your point?

My point is that I love people despite their sin. I witness through relationships. I do not think it is productive to force my ideals on people who are American citizens, but not Christians. I recognize the rights of people who do not share my beliefs - reality.

yes you do, thats exactl;y what you have been doing.

Really? You feel judged by me? Hilarious - have I suggested that you take your beliefs elsewhere? Have I suggested that you 'get a room'?

the only person who has mentioned hate is you, out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.

I am guilty of naming what I see - you are right. Because you are choosing to respond to a post directed towards another member - I am assuming that you agree with him.

 

[tarmack09]

tarmac09,
None of the Bibles support what you are saying, all the Bibles support what I am saying.
Thats not interpretation on your part but unbelief and denial. If you read the Bible you will see from what it says, same sex relations, that is man with man instead of woman, there are no other sexes, is not the natural and is error and detestable.
Man with man instead of woman is an either/or.
But you aren’t God. God’s word shows no recognition of people as ‘gays’. God sees men and woman He created for His purposes, if you are seeing those people as gays you are not seeing who God has created.

aspen2, [
irrevelant. The problem is that you dont accept the word of God that says it is detestable and error, if you did you wouldnt say it is difficult for you to view homosexual 'union' as sin as though your view might be better than God's.
So believers should not be debating personal views contrary to God's, that will get none of us anywhere, especially when the personal views are disputable. In Romans 1 of course homosexuality is kind of singled out along with idolotry before all the other error is listed.

Your approach is typical liberal, argue around the issue with a view to ending up in confusion with the impression its undecided or up for compromise. It isnt. Homosexuality is described as a barrier to the Kingdom, preach the rest of the gospel with that error and one no longer has the gospel.

Who is seeing hate here? Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. And this isnt about 'gays', its about faith in God and His word.

Yes, but it is not one of the ten commandments and you know that!!! Don't you act as if there isn't any evil promoting "anti" homosexual agendas within your right wing neocon brain. Trust me when I tell you that there have been many gay christians that have been persecuted for their faith. I mean, we are talking about dragged through the mud here... like their feets need to be washed etc.. However, because you said typical liberal we all know you are not willing to do that. Its saddens me that some people are not willing to work with others to spread the word of the gospel.

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

Reading comprehension is obviously a challenge for you. I have clearly stated that homosexuality is a sin.

Yes I recall it but you also said

It is difficult for me to view homosexual union as a sin

So any normal comprehension would indicate you recognise the Bible describes it as sin but you dont. Would that be a reasonable summary?

My point is that I love people despite their sin.

So do I, so what was your point?

I witness through relationships.

So do I so what was your point?

I do not think it is productive to force my ideals on people who are American citizens, but not Christians.

Me neither for UK citizens except of course when the democratic process means either society gets God's purposes or the world's. Obviously given the right to choose I vote for God's purposes.

I recognize the rights of people who do not share my beliefs - reality.

As above.

Really? You feel judged by me?

How would that work? By saying it is difficult for you view homosexual union as a sin, you are judging God as not having it right.

Hilarious - have I suggested that you take your beliefs elsewhere?

Hilarious - are you saying only you can decide what people can say?

I am guilty of naming what I see - you are right.

Still out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks, I dont see hate.

Tarmac09,

Yes, but it is not one of the ten commandments and you know that!!!

Yes and I never said it was so I am not sure why you are so keen to tell me what I know.

Don't you act as if there isn't any evil promoting "anti" homosexual agendas within your right wing neocon brain.

I will continue to speak the truth, what are you going to do about it?
Its not about homosexuals at all, so it isn’t an anti homosexual agenda. It is about those who believe in God and trust in God and false teachers who do not. Trust God and His word, there is no such thing as a ‘gay christian’ its the invention of people who value their sexual desires more than God. There are however people who experience same sex desires, you would call them homosexuals I think, who are Christians, but as Christians they know homosexual relations are error, and who they are in Christ. (Gal 3:28)

Its saddens me that some people are not willing to work with others to spread the word of the gospel.

The gospel includes warnings against homosexual relations as a barrier to the Kingdom. (1 Cor 6-7, Romans 1) Christ's NT teaching of the gospel says such things as you are defending is another Jesus and really no gospel at all. (2 Cor 11)

 

[aspen]

Honestly, BMS - I do not see hate from you. But since you responded to a post I directed towards Strat - I had to call his garbage as I see it.

I have a hard time accepting many of the the ideals I read in the Bible - so what?

It doesn't mean that I do not believe them to be true. I have to believe as a Christian - I do not have to like it.

As a Christian, I am in the business of loving others - unlike my parents in the garden who decided to get into the judging good and evil business. The fact is, without God - I have no clue about right and wrong. I was created specifically to love. Therefore, I will continue to vote and relate to others on the side of love rather than judgment.

By the way, my challenge still stands - find me a homosexual that does not know that the Bible condemns homosexual sex and I will be the first to tell them.

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

I have a hard time accepting many of the the ideals I read in the Bible - so what?

So what do you mean by that? I dont see how one can have Christ as Lord if one doesnt accept what He teaches as the truth is the truth.

It doesn't mean that I do not believe them to be true.

So it must mean you dont agree with the truth. Sorry but 'you cant have your cake and eat it'

I have to believe as a Christian - I do not have to like it.

How can one love God if one doesn't like His purposes?

As a Christian, I am in the business of loving others -

But one cant love others by defending lies against the truth, thats not loving others.

Therefore, I will continue to vote and relate to others on the side of love rather than judgment.

Then you are deceived about God and about what love means to God.

By the way, my challenge still stands - find me a homosexual that does not know that the Bible condemns homosexual sex and I will be the first to tell them.

There are plenty who claim it isnt, but whether they know the truth and are lying on purpose I can't tell.