I was asked to.....

[aspen]

We all have to accept ideas and circumstances we do not like. Liking something does not make it more or less true.

I have diabetes - I have to accept it. I do not like it. My opinion has no barring on my blood sugar levels.

I do not like it that God allowed us to fall into sin in the garden - so what? It happened and I have to deal with it.

I do not like that God allows suffering in the world and homeless kids to walk the streets of the richest nation in the world - so what? My opinion is meaningless - all I can do is accept it and work towards a better outcome. I do not have to like it.

So you feel comfortable telling me that I do not know God's love?

Talk about judgment - WOW

Fact is, we are not called to judge - we are called to love. Show me in the Bible where human justice is commanded by Jesus? Show me in the Bible where Jesus tells us to judge others?

 

[Strat]

You are so full of yourself! As if your take on reality is accurate! LOL

Look, I deal with real people everyday. I do not just sit behind my computer and dole out judgment based on my own understanding of the Bible, all day. You are full of hate, friend. You could out judge a Pharisee, that is for sure.

My take on reality is in the bible while your free ride, free love,free lunch hippy nonsense is not...you use the word hate because your arrested development won't allow you to consider any other reason for disagreement....at the very best we are even in the"full of yourself" department except for the fact that i can back up my postion biblically and you cannot.

The post above is quite revealing of how you see yourself compared to God....God has screwed it up now you must make it right by being more loving than God,more compassionate than God and deciding for yourself what sin is and is not....to funny....and once again you do not matter enough for anyone to hate and you judge others all the time based on your own standards of judgement....typical liberal hypocrite.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,
If one finds it hard to accept something then one cannot be convinced about it. Like is a different matter.
Romans 12:2 "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." If you are finding it hard to accept what God says is pleasing and purfect, is your mind renewed yet?

I do not like it that God allowed us to fall into sin in the garden - so what? It happened and I have to deal with it.

Not sure I agree with you. If God gives free choice He has to allow it. What you must really mean is you dont like it that God gave us free choice.

I do not like that God allows suffering in the world and homeless kids to walk the streets of the richest nation in the world - so what?

So you blame God, God doesnt allow suffering in His Kingdom, man allows suffering in the world.

So you feel comfortable telling me that I do not know God's love?

Did I mention you, no. What I said was one cant love others by defending lies against the truth, that is not loving others.
Do you not think turning a blind eye to sin that can lead to death is loving people? Dont you think it will also encourage people in wrong doing?

Talk about judgment – WOW

Too right, we are encourged to judge what is right and what is evil. Luke 12:57

Fact is, we are not called to judge - we are called to love. Show me in the Bible where human justice is commanded by Jesus? Show me in the Bible where Jesus tells us to judge others?

We are called to judge what is right (Luke 12, 2 Cor 11, 2 Peter 2, 1 Cor 5 etc) but according to the truth. We are not called to pass sentence and carry out punishment or people or stop loving them. But having challenged you about what love encompasses, you have not only declined but repeated the claim about loving again.
We are not called to love others as others love, but called to love others as Christ has loved. Thus we don’t hold back sharing the truth because some find it offensive like the Pharisees did.
Is that any clearer?

 

[aspen]

My take on reality is in the bible while your free ride, free love,free lunch hippy nonsense is not...you use the word hate because your arrested development won't allow you to consider any other reason for disagreement....at the very best we are even in the"full of yourself" department except for the fact that i can back up my postion biblically and you cannot.

The post above is quite revealing of how you see yourself compared to God....God has screwed it up now you must make it right by being more loving than God,more compassionate than God and deciding for yourself what sin is and is not....to funny....and once again you do not matter enough for anyone to hate and you judge others all the time based on your own standards of judgement....typical liberal hypocrite.

I use the word hate to describe your name calling and labeling.

When did I say anything about being more loving than God? if you saw that in my post, you are delusional.

I said that I was created to love - period.

Calling me a hippy is not going to stop me from loving others - sorry about that.

You would love to dismiss me as a typical liberal - but you can't. I believe the Bible is true. I am a Christian. Sorry to make you so uncomfortable.

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

You would love to dismiss me as a typical liberal - but you can't. I believe the Bible is true. I am a Christian. Sorry to make you so uncomfortable.

like Westboro church or the lords resistance army?
Sorry but when the scriptures are presented for correcting false teaching a frequent response is "I am a Christian". So as I know you dont agree with judging people I expect you will agree with Westboro church and the lord's resistance army? Yes?
Saying I am a Christian doesnt make what people think is love, actually love, it might be hate. Satan masquerades as an angel of light and I am sure as Christians we all get wrongly influenced at times.
I suggest you address the views, merely claiming one is a Christian in response to an issue in debate could just as reasonably be countered with no one isn't

 

[aspen]

Aspen2,
If one finds it hard to accept something then one cannot be convinced about it. Like is a different matter.
Romans 12:2 "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." If you are finding it hard to accept what God says is pleasing and purfect, is your mind renewed yet?

God is not looking for 'yes' men or fans. He gave us a mind to think with and time and space and perspective - I am not willing to lie about this glorious creation we are apart of. There is real pain in this world and I am not happy about it. Now, am I just going to sit back and whine about it or am I going to allow myself to be vulnerable enough to love others through all the crap? Hopefully, with God's help I will pick up my cross and follow him.

Not sure I agree with you. If God gives free choice He has to allow it. What you must really mean is you dont like it that God gave us free choice.

The temptation of the tree has nothing to do with free will. Adam had free will before he fell - he choose names for all the animals. The tree was a total disaster, which never should have happened. The only thing good that came out of that ordeal is that we learned what forgiveness is. But, it was not worth it.

Believing that the temptation at the tree was necessary to teach us about free will is heresy. Good is never dependent on evil.

So you blame God, God doesnt allow suffering in His Kingdom, man allows suffering in the world.

When did I blame God? I am suspending my disbelief - it is called faith. I have faith that my perspective is skewed and God will straightened it out.

Did I mention you, no. What I said was one cant love others by defending lies against the truth, that is not loving others.

Ha - ok, so you described a person who has the same characteristics as you see in me and you judge him? Got it!

Do you not think turning a blind eye to sin that can lead to death is loving people? Dont you think it will also encourage people in wrong doing?

A blind eye? Sin is sin. People need to Christ! Without Christ, they may as well follow Solomon and eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow they die. You are never going to moralize anyone into the Kingdom.

Too right, we are encourged to judge what is right and what is evil. Luke 12:57

You mean, Christians are called to make judgments about Christians in the context of church. We are not called to judge nonchristians.

We are called to judge what is right (Luke 12, 2 Cor 11, 2 Peter 2, 1 Cor 5 etc) but according to the truth. We are not called to pass sentence and carry out punishment or people or stop loving them. But having challenged you about what love encompasses, you have not only declined but repeated the claim about loving again.

Not sure I understand this remark.

We are not called to love others as others love, but called to love others as Christ has loved. Thus we don’t hold back sharing the truth because some find it offensive like the Pharisees did.

Christ communicated love. He saved His criticism for the religious folks who loved to pass judgement and exclude the people He loved.

aspen2,
like Westboro church or the lords resistance army?
Sorry but when the scriptures are presented for correcting false teaching a frequent response is "I am a Christian". So as I know you dont agree with judging people I expect you will agree with Westboro church and the lord's resistance army? Yes?
Saying I am a Christian doesnt make what people think is love, actually love, it might be hate. Satan masquerades as an angel of light and I am sure as Christians we all get wrongly influenced at times.
I suggest you address the views, merely claiming one is a Christian in response to an issue in debate could just as reasonably be countered with no one isn't

You are comparing me to a Westboro member? Ok - I see where you are going. Westboro church has been declared a hate group by the US government - they no longer have tax exempt status. Do I judge them? I do name the behavior that I see. I have no hatred towards them or condemnation. I am not trying to correct them. I have prayed for them in the past. I think they most resemble a hate group - I do not see the traits of Christianity in them. However, they have the right to exist and call themselves anything they want.

I was not claiming to be a Christian to prove anything or win an argument - it is just a fact. I think it is a troubling fact for you to accept - we disagree and we are both Christians.

 

[tarmack09]

Tarmac09,
Yes and I never said it was so I am not sure why you are so keen to tell me what I know.
I will continue to speak the truth, what are you going to do about it?
Its not about homosexuals at all, so it isn’t an anti homosexual agenda. It is about those who believe in God and trust in God and false teachers who do not. Trust God and His word, there is no such thing as a ‘gay christian’ its the invention of people who value their sexual desires more than God. There are however people who experience same sex desires, you would call them homosexuals I think, who are Christians, but as Christians they know homosexual relations are error, and who they are in Christ. (Gal 3:28)
The gospel includes warnings against homosexual relations as a barrier to the Kingdom. (1 Cor 6-7, Romans 1) Christ's NT teaching of the gospel says such things as you are defending is another Jesus and really no gospel at all. (2 Cor 11)

I'm not denying the fact that there is such a thing as "lust" some homosexuals need to change that part of their lives. Any well educated person knows that when they commit to reading the bible. Its not really one of the ten commandments to not be homosexual. It seems like you are dodging that answer of mine.

 

[Strat]

I use the word hate to describe your name calling and labeling.

When did I say anything about being more loving than God? if you saw that in my post, you are delusional.

I said that I was created to love - period.

Calling me a hippy is not going to stop me from loving others - sorry about that.

You would love to dismiss me as a typical liberal - but you can't. I believe the Bible is true. I am a Christian. Sorry to make you so uncomfortable.

Yep...every post assumes that you matter and have the ability to make anybody feel anything...it's not that i care one bit what you do...you go right ahead and "love" all you want since your corruption of love will bring you a due reward since those who lead others to Hell do not escape it themselves,most of it is probably alot of bull anyway since you can be whatever you want on the internet so your self appointed role as international benevolence captain and all around do gooder is probably more fantasy than fact.

 

[acebopata]

I would sign the penten. The Lord desinged marrage between a man and a woman, and we'd be follish to try to change that.

 

[aspen]

Yep...every post assumes that you matter and have the ability to make anybody feel anything...it's not that i care one bit what you do...you go right ahead and "love" all you want since your corruption of love will bring you a due reward since those who lead others to Hell do not escape it themselves,most of it is probably alot of bull anyway since you can be whatever you want on the internet so your self appointed role as international benevolence captain and all around do gooder is probably more fantasy than fact.

I do not have the power to send anyone to Hell. As far as viewing my love as corrupt - you know nothing. Your contempt for me speaks volumes

 

[neophyte]

God loves the sinner but not the sin.

 

[Rach1370]

Okey dokey people...lets tone it down! There are some good points on both sides here, and while the topic is fairly inflammatory, it's certainly one we need to speak of, as it's an issue in the church.But let's get back to the bible and stop playing 'tag' for someone to be the piñata with the others having a whacking stick. We're talking about an issue here...it's relevance and importance in both in the church and out of it. We need to keep the insults and personal attacks down or the thread will have to be closed.

 

[aspen]

no one can decide who is a Christian and who is not. Or which church has the Spirit and which does not.

 

[Strat]

I do not have the power to send anyone to Hell. As far as viewing my love as corrupt - you know nothing. Your contempt for me speaks volumes

no one can decide who is a Christian and who is not. Or which church has the Spirit and which does not.

So when the bible tells us to examine ourselves and see if we are of the faith there are no standards to judge by ?

When it tells us to test the spirits and see who they are of it is just a suggestion we can take or leave ?

Any Church that does not preach the whole word of God is an apostate Church.....they have a "spirit" but it is not of God.

You don't have the power to send anyone to Hell and i never said that,but you do have the power to lie and lead people astray by comforting and enabling them in their sin....no one will ever repent of anything that they think,feel or have been told is not a sin and most people will not repent until sin becomes so painful and the consequences so severe that they seek deliverence out of desperation....since you don't believe in consequences and that everybody should have a good life regardless of how they live you thwart Gods law and the consequences he has put in place to lead people to repentance....unrepented of it is a damnable offense and the justice of God will not allow you to usher others into Hell and escape it yourself.The only contempt reserved for you or anyone like you is that which comes from spreading lies and decit and the damage it does and the souls it damns.

 

[aspen]

So when the bible tells us to examine ourselves and see if we are of the faith there are no standards to judge by ?

When it tells us to test the spirits and see who they are of it is just a suggestion we can take or leave ?

Any Church that does not preach the whole word of God is an apostate Church.....they have a "spirit" but it is not of God.

You don't have the power to send anyone to Hell and i never said that,but you do have the power to lie and lead people astray by comforting and enabling them in their sin....no one will ever repent of anything that they think,feel or have been told is not a sin and most people will not repent until sin becomes so painful and the consequences so severe that they seek deliverence out of desperation....since you don't believe in consequences and that everybody should have a good life regardless of how they live you thwart Gods law and the consequences he has put in place to lead people to repentance....unrepented of it is a damnable offense and the justice of God will not allow you to usher others into Hell and escape it yourself.The only contempt reserved for you or anyone like you is that which comes from spreading lies and decit and the damage it does and the souls it damns.

How am I lying?

You are continuing to condemn me of all sorts of unfounded charges - lying, leading people to Hell, being haughty and proud.....yet you give zero examples. Fact is, you just don't like me - ok, cool. Why can't you just admit it and stop throwing charges around like a 5 year old having a tantrum? No one said you had to like me.

Obama 2012!

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,

God is not looking for 'yes' men or fans.

Depends what you mean. I suggest He most certainly did as all through the Bible God says obey His words, Christ says obey His teaching.

He gave us a mind to think with and time and space and perspective –

So how could Romans 12:2 about the renewing of the mind not be about us having a mind to think with?

The temptation of the tree has nothing to do with free will.

How come? How can telling someone not to do something and they choosing to do it, not be free will by definition?? Did you mean free will or ‘free willy’ the film about the whale?

When did I blame God?

When God doesn’t allow it, but man does, as soon as one says they cant understand why God allows it they are blaming God. Besides, if God wanted it He can have it without us objecting, He is God, we aren’t, He doesn’t have to answer to us by what we understand and think is fair.

Ha - ok, so you described a person who has the same characteristics as you see in me and you judge him? Got it!

No, you did, just now. I said one cant love others by defending lies against the truth, that is not loving others. That addresses what you said, I don’t call views characteristics.

A blind eye? Sin is sin. People need to Christ! Without Christ, they may as well follow Solomon and eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow they die. You are never going to moralize anyone into the Kingdom.

That doesnt address the question put to you. Let me put it again.
Do you not think turning a blind eye to sin that can lead to death is loving people? Dont you think it will also encourage people in wrong doing?

You mean, Christians are called to make judgments about Christians in the context of church. We are not called to judge nonchristians.

Sorry I don’t see how that is relevant to Luke 12:57 which refers to judging what is right and what is evil, NOT who is right or evil. Can you address the question now?
We are called to judge what is right (Luke 12, 2 Cor 11, 2 Peter 2, 1 Cor 5 etc) but according to the truth. We are not called to pass sentence and carry out punishment or people or stop loving them. But having challenged you about what love encompasses, you have not only declined but repeated the claim about loving again.

Not sure I understand this remark.

Why not? Its scripture.

Christ communicated love. He saved His criticism for the religious folks who loved to pass judgement and exclude the people He loved.

I dont see how that addresses the point put to you and it depends on what you mean by criticism. Do you not think telling people to leave their lives of sin is criticism?
How does that address my point that we are not called to love others as others love, but called to love others as Christ has loved. Thus we don’t hold back sharing the truth because some find it offensive like the Pharisees did.

You are comparing me to a Westboro member?

No, I was comparing your claim with that of Westboro's.

Ok - I see where you are going. Westboro church has been declared a hate group by the US government –

So for you what is right and wrong decided by the US government? If not why mention the US government? The point I was making was that merely claiming "I am a Christian " as you did, doesn’t necessarily count for anything. All kinds of people claim all kinds of things.
Saying "I am a Christian" doesn’t make what people think is love, actually love. It might be hate. Satan masquerades as an angel of light and I am sure as Christians we all get wrongly influenced at times.

no one can decide who is a Christian and who is not. Or which church has the Spirit and which does not.

Not only can they but they should as we have seen from the scriptures presented in front of you on this forum. Believers are to test what everyone says, including each other against the word. ie 2 Tim 3:16. Believers are to dissassociate from false teachers (Matt 18, 1 Cor 5, 2 Peter 2 etc)
And I am not in agreemwnt with your remarks to Strat, I have not seen Strat condemn anyone, on the contrary he seems to have said none of us can condemn anyone, yet you have accused him of condemning people.

tarmac09
I am not denying that your views are contrary to what the Biblical testimony says, on the contrary I note you claim to acknowldge it whilst denying it.

 

[Strat]

How am I lying?

You are continuing to condemn me of all sorts of unfounded charges - lying, leading people to Hell, being haughty and proud.....yet you give zero examples. Fact is, you just don't like me - ok, cool. Why can't you just admit it and stop throwing charges around like a 5 year old having a tantrum? No one said you had to like me.

Obama 2012!

Your position on sin is not biblical,it is a lie that leads to unrepentance and the ultimate consequence of unrepentance is Hell....the word of God condemns it not me.

 

[tarmack09]

Your position on sin is not biblical,it is a lie that leads to unrepentance and the ultimate consequence of unrepentance is Hell....the word of God condemns it not me.

Please enlighten me then! Post more scripture! I would like to know the exact bible verse were it says that you should not be gay.

 

[aspen]

Your position on sin is not biblical,it is a lie that leads to unrepentance and the ultimate consequence of unrepentance is Hell....the word of God condemns it not me.

Sure it is. God's people are called to obey and follow Him. Nonbelievers are not required to follow God.

 

[elysian]

Okey dokey people...lets tone it down! There are some good points on both sides here, and while the topic is fairly inflammatory, it's certainly one we need to speak of, as it's an issue in the church.But let's get back to the bible and stop playing 'tag' for someone to be the piñata with the others having a whacking stick. We're talking about an issue here...it's relevance and importance in both in the church and out of it. We need to keep the insults and personal attacks down or the thread will have to be closed.

There are no good points on both sides, aspen is at least trying to debate in a civilized manner, whereas the other two are making endless personal attacks. If you're a moderator, shame on you for doing nothing.