If Baptism could save then there is no need for the shed Blood of Jesus.

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Truther

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38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for(TO OBTAIN) the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Not....

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for(BECAUSE YOU ALREADY HAVE THE) the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


The latter is silly....remission of sins without Jesus' name invoked at all, rendering the burial ineffective.
 

CadyandZoe

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In Acts of the Apostles 22:16, the precedent is made that men are to call on the name of the Lord at baptism.
Washing away sins is not the same thing as forgiving sins. Our sins were forgiven at the cross. Our sins are washed away when God decides to "remember them no more."

Being baptized in Jesus' Name is in fact one of many ways to confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.
Baptism is not confession. Baptism is a religious rite whereby someone agrees to become a disciple of the baptizer. Acts 19 Those who were baptized into John, became disciples of John.
 

justbyfaith

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Yes, but there is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED (as we read in John 6:40) and doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED (as in 1 Thessalonians 5:14-18).

Obviously we receive regeneration and renewal through faith in Jesus Christ alone. And we do not do the will of the Father in order to be saved.

However, Matthew 7:21-23 appears to be clear on the idea that if we do not do the will of the Father after we are saved, He will say to us on that day, I never knew you.

This is not salvation by works.

It is to say that faith is an attitude in which we become obedient to the will of the Father. The obedience doesn't save us; the attitude does. I have been told that this is a "FALSE and PERVERTED" gospel...but I consider that it is merely taking into account those verses in James, and here in Matthew, that speak of how a man is justified by works and not be faith only (for example, James 2:24).

I am a full proponent of the idea that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works. You will often find me referencing Romans 4:5-6, Titus 3:5 (kjv), Romans 11:5-6 (kjv), and Ephesians 2:8-9 to those who teach salvation by works. But there are verses that tell us that we cannot be saved apart from doing the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21 is one of these); and we would be neglectful in our Bible Study to ignore such verses.

They were workers of iniquity because they were unbelievers/lost. Children of God are not described as workers of iniquity in scripture. Their sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ and they have been accounted as righteous by faith. (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9)

People are children of God because they have repented of their sins...they don't commit the same sins any more that they used to (1 John 3:9, 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17). Thus they are no longer "workers of iniquity" in the practical sense. See also Matthew 13:41-42.

When God says in Psalms 103:12 that He has removed our transgressions from us as far as the east is from the west, He is not only talking about the penalty for our sins. He is talking about our sins themselves (see also Matthew 1:21).

There are a handful of alleged prooftexts which are often cited in an effort to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is associated with conversion, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

Much like circumcision was a seal of Abraham's righteousness (see Romans 4:11), baptism can be a seal of our righteousness (Colossians 2:11-12).

Those who merely believe "should not perish" (John 3:16).

Those who believe and are baptized "shall be saved" (Mark 16:16).

Those who call on the name of the Lord "shall be saved" (Romans 10:13).

Therefore, if you would refuse to be baptized in Jesus' Name, it would behoove you to call on His name for salvation, at the very least (the name, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Acts 4:10-12).

Just know that if you merely call on the name of the Lord, the promise is not in red letters (which to me does not make a difference; but it may make a difference to you).

Workers of iniquity have not done the will of the Father by believing in Christ and receiving salvation. All of their sins remain, hence workers of iniquity.

A "worker of iniquity" is someone who commits sins. Those who are born of God are not workers of iniquity in this sense (1 John 3:9, 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 john 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), Colossians 2:11 (nlt))

At least you admit we are not sinless.

That is not what I said. I said that we can become "sinless" in the sense of practical sinning (but not concerning indwelling sin); while those who have reached that goal of perfection will have within them the attitude that they have room to grow: they will always be pressing forward to obtain the reachable goal of entire sanctification. Once they reach it, they will not consider that they have reached it (Philippians 3:13-15).

See Job 9:21 and compare it to 1 John 1:8. Also Isaiah 42:19 (kjv) and John 9:41.

Baptism is not confession.

I think that I disagree with you there.
 

justbyfaith

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I am = present tense.
Paul is setting forth a trustworthy saying that is worthy of all acceptation, that Jeremiah 17:9 is the reality and that we should all adopt this as a saying; in order that those who are really bad off morally may know that they are redeemable.

Yet, Jeremiah 17:9 is qualified by Ezekiel 36:25-27 and Luke 8:15.

Is Paul's heart deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, or is it an honest and good heart?

If it is not an honest and good heart, then his heart is not good soil; and we cannot trust him to be the apostle to the Gentiles. He would not be able to bear any kind of fruit bearing seed, let alone good fruit; and therefore the seeds of the gospel that are planted in us in the New Testament, where do they come from?

If it is an honest and good heart, then Paul is not the chief of sinners (any more).
 

mailmandan

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Obviously we receive regeneration and renewal through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
Amen! The problem is that you say that out of one side of your mouth and out of the other side of your mouth you say something else.

And we do not do the will of the Father in order to be saved.
We do the will of the Father by looking to the Son and believing in Him in order to receive eternal life/be saved. (John 6:40)

However, Matthew 7:21-23 appears to be clear on the idea that if we do not do the will of the Father after we are saved, He will say to us on that day, I never knew you.
How could these workers of iniquity/unbelievers do the will of the Father after they are saved when they did not do the will of the Father in order to become saved? Your theology is all over the place.

This is not salvation by works.
Doing the will of the Father after we have been saved in order to become saved is salvation by works.

It is to say that faith is an attitude in which we become obedient to the will of the Father. The obedience doesn't save us; the attitude does.
That makes no sense. Obedience after we have been saved is works. You say that faith is an attitude in which we become obedient to the Father, so you are basically saying that faith "is" an attitude along with obedience/works, then you say we are not saved by obedience, but the attitude. o_O It's faith that saves us. Period. We are saved the very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

I have been told that this is a "FALSE and PERVERTED" gospel...
Works salvation is a false and perverted gospel which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

but I consider that it is merely taking into account those verses in James, and here in Matthew, that speak of how a man is justified by works and not be faith only (for example, James 2:24).
First you say that obedience doesn't save us (and obedience is works), yet here you seem to be saying that we are saved by works. Like I said before, your theology is all over the place. "Justified by works" does not mean saved by works. James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

I am a full proponent of the idea that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works. You will often find me referencing Romans 4:5-6, Titus 3:5 (kjv), Romans 11:5-6 (kjv), and Ephesians 2:8-9 to those who teach salvation by works. But there are verses that tell us that we cannot be saved apart from doing the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21 is one of these); and we would be neglectful in our Bible Study to ignore such verses.
Sounds like an oxymoron. The will of the Father in John 6:40 lines up with saved by grace through faith apart from works.

People are children of God because they have repented of their sins...they don't commit the same sins any more that they used to (1 John 3:9, 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17). Thus they are no longer "workers of iniquity" in the practical sense. See also Matthew 13:41-42.
So children of God never sin anymore at all/never stumble and if they ever sin at all, they are considered "workers of iniquity?"

When God says in Psalms 103:12 that He has removed our transgressions from us as far as the east is from the west, He is not only talking about the penalty for our sins. He is talking about our sins themselves (see also Matthew 1:21).
I understand that, yet our perishable, vile bodies will not be changed until we receive our glorified bodies. (1 Corinthians 15: 50-52; Philippians 3:21)

Much like circumcision was a seal of Abraham's righteousness (see Romans 4:11), baptism can be a seal of our righteousness (Colossians 2:11-12).
Exactly and neither circumcision or baptism is what literally saves us.

Those who merely believe "should not perish" (John 3:16).

Those who believe and are baptized "shall be saved" (Mark 16:16).
I already covered this in post #255.

Those who call on the name of the Lord "shall be saved" (Romans 10:13).
Calling on the name of the Lord to be saved = relying on the name of the Lord, trusting in Him for salvation. When you call upon Jesus to save you to it is that you trust in him to come to your aid. Inherent in your calling upon Jesus is the essential faith that he can and will save you.

Therefore, if you would refuse to be baptized in Jesus' Name, it would behoove you to call on His name for salvation, at the very least (the name, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Acts 4:10-12).
Genuine believers would not refuse to be water baptized. I could not wait to receive water baptism after I received Christ through faith and was saved the night before. I gave a 5 minute testimony just before receiving water baptism on how I previously attended two different false religions prior to my conversion that taught salvation is obtained by water baptism and other works, yet now I finally understand that we are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Just know that if you merely call on the name of the Lord, the promise is not in red letters (which to me does not make a difference; but it may make a difference to you).
What do you mean by "merely" call on the name of the Lord? The result is salvation, so it's not merely. (Romans 10:13)

A "worker of iniquity" is someone who commits sins.
Apart from the blood of Christ to wash away our sins, we would all be seen in the eyes of God as "workers of iniquity."

Those who are born of God are not workers of iniquity in this sense (1 John 3:9, 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 john 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), Colossians 2:11 (nlt))
No one who is born of God practices sin.. (1 John 3:9) yet that still does not mean that we are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time. (1 John 1:8-10)

That is not what I said. I said that we can become "sinless" in the sense of practical sinning (but not concerning indwelling sin); while those who have reached that goal of perfection will have within them the attitude that they have room to grow: they will always be pressing forward to obtain the reachable goal of entire sanctification. Once they reach it, they will not consider that they have reached it (Philippians 3:13-15).
How many people do you know who have reached entire sanctification and are now sinless, without fault or defect, absolutely perfect, flawless 100% of the time exactly like Jesus? It sounds like a contradiction at first glance: Philippians 3:12 - "..not that I have already become perfect.." Verse 15 - "..as many as are perfect.." In verse 12, Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - "Or am already made perfect (h hdh teteleiwmai). Perfect passive indicative (state of completion) of teleiow, old verb from teleio and that from telo (end). Paul pointedly denies that he has reached a spiritual impasse of non-development." In verse 15, he comments - "Here the term teleioi means relative perfection, not the absolute perfection." So depending on the context, "perfect" may mean "absolute perfection" or "relative perfection," which is in regards to maturity or completeness and not necessarily absolute perfection/sinless perfection.

See Job 9:21 and compare it to 1 John 1:8. Also Isaiah 42:19 (kjv) and John 9:41.
Perfect here does not mean that Job was sinless, without fault of defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time. Job had admitted his human sinfulness (Job 7:21; 13:26). Isaiah 42:19 is in reference to Israel. Isaiah 43:10 - "You are My witnesses, says the Lord," And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. In John 9:41, Jesus was referring to some of the Pharisees.
 
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Before Jesus came in the world John baptised people and taught repentance. Regular Baptism makes a holy thru the repentance. Jesus hadn't come in the world yet, I mean the holy spirit had not come yet because Jesus mission or ministry hadn't begun yet. Jesus was the son of God but when God sent the holy spirit down it was to empower and anoint Jesus with God's power and holiness. I believe Jesus was just a pure hearted divine man when he got baptised by John until the holy spirit empowered him fully. It just made him more powerful because he was born of God already. Or maybe God just put his words in Jesus heart and mouth. God is the one with true power. It's God's spirit that empower men to work thru him. When John taught repentance he was making people holy thru that repentance only thereafter baptising them after. Baptism in the world is just traditional religion thing we do to show our love and seriousness for the Lord. It does not make one fully holy in God's holy perspectives. Only the holy spirit does that. Just to think of it when people get baptised they still repenting right? Didn't Jesus say those who invited him in and come to him will receive the holy spirit? I just thought of something. I think baptism does make us holy because it's like still repenting and coming to Christ like when Jesus came to John the Baptist and the dove came down after.
 
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CadyandZoe

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I think that I disagree with you there.
I was speaking of confessing my sins before God . . . in my prayer closet. I suppose one might argue that Baptism is a public confession in the same way that a marriage ceremony is a public confession.

Essentially, however, the rite of baptism is a signal event whereby one declares his or her intent to become the student of the baptizer. Those whom John baptized, for instance, became students of John. As it pertains to Jesus' apostles, baptism becomes problematic because Jesus didn't send his apostles to make students for themselves. (Witness the factionalism in Corinth.) For this reason, Jesus commanded his apostles to make disciples in his name. That is, those whom they baptize will become students of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
 

CadyandZoe

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Is Paul's heart deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, or is it an honest and good heart?
Both are true. He argues in Romans 7 that at the penultimate level of his inwardness, he loves the Law and recognizes it as good. But at the ultimate level of his inwardness he finds sin. Thus he refers to himself as "a wretched man."

In my experience, those who confess themselves to have victory over sin, have either not confronted sin at the ultimate level of inwardness, or they excuse it as "just being human."
 
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I was speaking of confessing my sins before God . . . in my prayer closet. I suppose one might argue that Baptism is a public confession in the same way that a marriage ceremony is a public confession.

Essentially, however, the rite of baptism is a signal event whereby one declares his or her intent to become the student of the baptizer. Those whom John baptized, for instance, became students of John. As it pertains to Jesus' apostles, baptism becomes problematic because Jesus didn't send his apostles to make students for themselves. (Witness the factionalism in Corinth.) For this reason, Jesus commanded his apostles to make disciples in his name. That is, those whom they baptize will become students of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Lol people who go to church are "christian". So anyone who goes to church should have the holy spirit since they sitting in church worshipping the Lord. That's what we Christians do right. Repent go to Jesus and receive the holy spirit after. I think one only becomes fully holy thru obedience to God. We aren't obedient because we are righteous and holy though. We are obedient because we love God the father and want to please him. People who are in Baptism water are saying they want God in their life. Simple as that. Baptism is also something that is apart of the church and things they do by it. Etc. It does not make one purified unless until we come perfect thru obedience.
 
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That's why one of the fruits of the spirit is self-control. Thru the holy spirit only we can conquer perfection and sanctification and among other things.
 
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Remember John also said Jesus would come to baptise with fire too. There's no fire in churches lol. I think thru the fire is where one truly becomes holy. Because people can truly change when being corrected and disciplined. Just like a parent who sits a child in the corner after spilled milk. They will learn not to do it again and grow up thru their discipline and obedience by the parent.
 

mailmandan

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It's not the water outside us, it's the water within us we suppose to feel that makes us feel pure
John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

John 4:14 "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."

John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. :)
 
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John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

John 4:14 "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."

John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. :)
It's true. The holy spirit has a character and I know my body feels like water that is 30 degree weather when I feel "pure." And Jesus wasn't ever glorified until he did some miracle. Lol
 

Truther

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I explained why "for" doesn't mean "obtain". Argue with my reasons. Peter already said that Israel was forgiven. They don't need to be forgiven again.
You can be forgiven for a particular sin, but still be an active sinner.

So, to not be an active sinner, one must have their sins remitted.

This is how the name of Jesus in the water trumps our sins en masse.
 
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user

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You can be forgiven for a particular sin, but still be an active sinner.

So, to not be an active sinner, one must have their sins remitted.

This is how the name of Jesus in the water trumps our sins en masse.


1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The blood comes when we stand in the waters of baptism calling upon the name of Jesus.


(science tells us water helps blood flow.)
God Bless!
 
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GISMYS_7

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So you are hanging on to your false idea that getting baptized saves you!!! Satan and demons must be laughing!!!
 
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