If Baptism could save then there is no need for the shed Blood of Jesus.

[CadyandZoe]

Basically, the first mention of a word in scripture defines the use of that word ever afterward.

Therefore the fact that the first mention of baptism in scripture has it referring to baptism in water, means that baptism is in water ever afterwards.

According to my training, a passage should be understood in the way the author originally intended.

So, for example, consider the following passage from Acts chapter 8,
Acts 8:36
As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?”
The eunuch speaks about water and baptism in the same sentence. Therefore we conclude that he is talking about being immersed in water.

Now consider this passage from later in Acts:
Acts 19:2-4
He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
Paul talks about teaching and baptism in the same context. Therefore we conclude that in this context, "baptism" refers to the teaching of John. The disciples were immersed in what John taught them.

Also, notice that these disciples were already water baptized and did not receive the Holy Spirit. It wasn't the water that made the difference, it was the teacher, i.e. Jesus Christ, that made the difference. The Holy Spirit is granted to those who believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:13

There is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5) not two...a baptism in water and a baptism in the Spirit.

Which is it? Water or Spirit?

In Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39, we find baptism in water procuring a promise of being baptized in the Spirit.

This is the question. What was Peter asking them to do? Was he asking them to get into a basin of water alone? Or was Peter asking them to repent and become disciples of Jesus Christ, which would be initiated by a water baptism?

But the question in our time is this. What if the meaning behind the ritual has changed? What then? Are you able to answer that?

 

[CadyandZoe]

So what part of "baptism saves you now" doesn't mean "baptism saves you now"?

And you imply that if you have been given a false understanding, so that is what you have always understood it to mean, then that is what it actually means. No correction is possible.

False logic!!

"not the removal of dirt from the flesh" = not getting into a basin of water.

 

[Mungo]

"not the removal of dirt from the flesh" = not getting into a basin of water.

False equivalence.
You are missing the point. Baptism is not about removal of dirt. Just washing doesn't save you.
But baptism isn't just washing. It's the second part of Jesus' promise: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved".
Why do you not believe Jesus?
Why do you not believe Peter?

 

[Mungo]

According to my training, a passage should be understood in the way the author originally intended.

So, for example, consider the following passage from Acts chapter 8,
Acts 8:36
As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?”
The eunuch speaks about water and baptism in the same sentence. Therefore we conclude that he is talking about being immersed in water.

Now consider this passage from later in Acts:
Acts 19:2-4
He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
Paul talks about teaching and baptism in the same context. Therefore we conclude that in this context, "baptism" refers to the teaching of John. The disciples were immersed in what John taught them.

Also, notice that these disciples were already water baptized and did not receive the Holy Spirit. It wasn't the water that made the difference, it was the teacher, i.e. Jesus Christ, that made the difference. The Holy Spirit is granted to those who believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:13

Which is it? Water or Spirit?

This is the question. What was Peter asking them to do? Was he asking them to get into a basin of water alone? Or was Peter asking them to repent and become disciples of Jesus Christ, which would be initiated by a water baptism?

But the question in our time is this. What if the meaning behind the ritual has changed? What then? Are you able to answer that?

There is only one NT baptism and that is with water.

 

[CadyandZoe]

False equivalence.
You are missing the point. Baptism is not about removal of dirt. Just washing doesn't save you.
But baptism isn't just washing. It's the second part of Jesus' promise: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved".
Why do you not believe Jesus?
Why do you not believe Peter?

You are the one missing the point, perhaps because you live in a place where you can take a bath every day. In Peter's day, removing dirt from the body was used symbolically to represent removing sin from your life.

 

[Mungo]

You are the one missing the point, perhaps because you live in a place where you can take a bath every day. In Peter's day, removing dirt from the body was used symbolically to represent removing sin from your life.

Daily ritual bathing was common among many Jewish groups, for example the Essenes. According to archaeologists excavations of the TempleMount area have shown that there were 48 mikvahs for ritual bathing.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

God does not force people to believe in Him Belief or not is your choice!!!

Yes, God does not force people to believe in Him-- He creates them NEW-- 'True Believers'. Believe or not is not your choice but the gift of God.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Yes, God does not force people to believe in Him-- He creates them NEW-- 'True Believers'. Believe or not is not your choice but the gift of God.

Think!!!! God does not force people to believe in Him Belief or not is your choice!!! It was Adam's choice to not obey God.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

God does not force people to believe in Him Belief or not is your choice!!! It was Adam's choice to not obey God.

Certainly, and Adam was not even a sinner when he chose and sinned choosing. We are not better; we can never choose and not sin choosing. God did not tell Adam to choose to obey; He told him to obey and Adam not obeying chose not to obey God, in other words, chose sinning and sinning chose. That is the full scope of man's free-will choice.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Certainly, and Adam was not even a sinner when he chose and sinned choosing. We are not better; we can never choose and not sin choosing. God did not tell Adam to choose to obey; He told him to obey and Adam not obeying chose not to obey God, in other words, chose sinning and sinning chose. That is the full scope of man's free-will choice.

THINK! What you do today is your choice you can choose to do evil or not to do evil to lie or not lie!!!=all your choice!!

 

[justbyfaith]

Which is it? Water or Spirit?

Both, in one.

But the question in our time is this. What if the meaning behind the ritual has changed?

Has it?

"not the removal of dirt from the flesh" = not getting into a basin of water.

Not necessarily. The water symbolizes being buried with Christ and being raised with Him when you come out of the water. It is this identification with the death, burial, and resurrection that saves rather than being washed by the water, is what Peter is saying. If this could be symbolized in some other fashion, it would be a valid representation that might indeed save. But it seems that going under the water is the best way to represent burial after you have been crucified with Christ.

 

[WaterSong]

I've traveled quite a bit in my time. In Christian discussion circles there seems an inevitable singular protracted point that arises regardless of where I find them, or what tradition said circle ascribes itself to. That is, the belief the bible is the word of God but with a singular caveat;
The bible is the word of God and Jesus didn't really mean to teach all that is written.

If baptism was a non-issue there would not have been one word of it mentioned by Jesus after he himself was baptized.

I browsed a forum not long ago that carries a thread that is nearing 20 thousand pages and has spanned years. I don't think ten thousand pages debating this one matter will serve to change anyone's mind on either side of the issue.
That is as it should be I think.
Because we are each individuals, saved, redeemed, saints, in the church that is comprised of that collection of faithful within and to him. And we are not bound to reach a consensus on any given article of faith in order to repose there as the grace filled immortals in Christ.

How to find peace in your life. Don't take anything anyone else thinks personally. God knows you. God is alive inside you. Opinions can't touch that.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

THINK! What you do today is your choice you can choose to do evil or not to do evil to lie or not lie!!!=all your choice!!

Absolutely, yes! just shows you your totally impotent choice. Did you THINK? Obviously you not even noticed there's no 'good' thing among the things you choose from. <All your choice> - like mine - friend, as the Bible says, "IS ONLY EVIL".

 

[justbyfaith]

Since there are promises of salvation concerning baptism but there is no condemnation for those who receive baptism, I would say, just get it done.

Why take chances on eternity?

Why gamble on your fate of going to heaven or otherwise being cast into hell?

Just get it done!

What are you waiting for?

Act 22:16, And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Both, in one.



Has it?



Not necessarily. The water symbolizes being buried with Christ and being raised with Him when you come out of the water. It is this identification with the death, burial, and resurrection that saves rather than being washed by the water, is what Peter is saying. If this could be symbolized in some other fashion, it would be a valid representation that might indeed save. But it seems that going under the water is the best way to represent burial after you have been crucified with Christ.

You just proved my point.

 

[user]

Which is it? Water or Spirit?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

You just proved my point.

Not that I can see.

Perhaps you should elaborate your point.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Absolutely, yes! just shows you your totally impotent choice. Did you THINK? Obviously you not even noticed there's no 'good' thing among the things you choose from. <All your choice> - like mine - friend, as the Bible says, "IS ONLY EVIL".

God is saying ,"choose to think on these things" Philipians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

God is saying ,"choose to think on these things" Philipians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Yes, God LIMITS your 'choice' of 'thinking' to "these things". If you are God's chosen, then you won't be able to not 'choose' or love or prefer "these things", but if you're not God's chosen, you won't even stand a chance to 'choose' or love or prefer "these things"-- it's all God's 'choice' or all evil man's sure EVIL choice.

Can't you ever get to a godly knowledge of the truth? If not for God you never can and never will.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

To be "born of water and of spirit" is born once at one birth-"of-water-and-of-spirit". You have no right to insert <the>. 'eks hudatos kai pneumatos'.