If no Rapture - then what ?

[Arnie Manitoba]

..................... (snip) ....... but the Lord showed me something else, something quite awesome.
In chapter 1 of the book of Hebrews we find the excellencies of Christ as compared to the angels and in verses 13 qnd 14 we find:
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

In 1st Corinthians, the Apostle tells us that we shall judge angels:
Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 1st Corinthians 6:3

Michael .... I snipped a bit of your earlier post regarding angels ..... I also find those verses intriguing.

Some of my general thoughts are as follows ...... it sounds like all saved people have an angel .... I think that is where we get the term "guardian angel" from ...... and the fact that we will judge angels is a powerful thing to consideration .... and a huge responsibility ..... kinda scary too !!

When we become Christians ..... maybe it saves "our angel" as well ..... something to think about.

We all know there is an invisible spiritual battle going on around us ..... good versus evil ..... we are all influenced by it ..... and maybe there is a lot more at stake than we realize ...... there is even a place in the bible where it says the angels rejoice when a person becomes a believer ... it almost sounds like they benefit from it too .....

Thanks for pointing out those intriguing angel verses .... I have always been fascinated by them.

Arnie M.

 

[Wormwood]

It is good when two people can converse like adults, but that doesn't mean a rebuke isn't warranted at times.

And no, we do not ALL approach God's Word with preconceptions, since the preconceptions idea you're inferring points to men's traditions instead of staying with the Scripture itself.

When a believer on Christ Jesus has studied enough of God's Word for theirself the way God said do it, and learns to listen to Him in His Word regardless of the popular traditions of men, that's when those preconceptions begin to leave. One learns to accept what God reveals as written, regardless of being able to fully understand how what is revealed can be.

So when God said He is against those false prophets of the house of Israel who hunt the souls to make them fly per Ezekiel 13, and that He did not 'send' them, that's HIM speaking, not me.

Well when you can begin to explain your exegesis and basis for your claims rather than simply saying, "I believe God's Word and you listen to men's traditions" then perhaps we can have a discussion. That really does nothing for the discussion except imply that you have no real answer for my posts other than, "Im right and youre wrong." Its not very helpful or persuasive.

 

[veteran]

Well when you can begin to explain your exegesis and basis for your claims rather than simply saying, "I believe God's Word and you listen to men's traditions" then perhaps we can have a discussion. That really does nothing for the discussion except imply that you have no real answer for my posts other than, "Im right and youre wrong." Its not very helpful or persuasive.

I and others here already have pointed out the relevant Scripture to you, and to those like you who believe the same rapture you do. When you get ready to 'listen' to God's Word, you can go back and study the Scriptures we've already posted and compare to God's Word as the measure. No need to keep doing it over and over for you. The ball is your park, and you're just stalling.

 

[ezekiel]

wormwood i understand this also to be the last day and to the 1000 years peter tells us it will be 1 day moreover michael shall stand up for the saints and in daniel the saints will rule and the meek shall take over the earth but during the trib. them that fight with sword shall die by the same please know the way of the prophets for the nations have drunk the wine of wrath. note ( For David himself said in the Holy Spirit,'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet )

 

[michaelvpardo]

[SIZE=9pt]Wormwood, on 18 Aug 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Michael, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Maybe this is how you read my interpretations, but this is certainly not what I have said. I have never claimed that God did not mean what he said. I am saying that "Israel" and the promises made to this people group is defined in the New Testament as Jews and grafted in Gentiles who believe in Jesus. Thus, the promises in the OT to God's faithful people belong still to God's faithful people (which are now defined as those who have faith in Jesus). Jesus IS Israel fulfilled and those who are in Christ are true Israel. Paul makes this astoundingly clear. So the problem here is not that I discount God's promises, but that I believe those promises are fulfilled in Christ (as Paul makes clear in Galatians 3). God always saved people of faith and has never been a deliverer of the faithless. If the OT teaches us anything, its that God did not deliver Israel when she was faithless...rather he judged her. So the fact that you still want to make the promises of God apply to a nationality rather than a people of faith discounts the teaching of both the New and Old Testaments in my opinion. I hope this helps.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Doesn't a "type" of Jesus make reference to Jesus? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]No, the types were revelations of the person of Jesus, before He was born to human flesh, though writers sometimes use them in reference to Jesus to make a point. Jesus said, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. [/SIZE]John 5:39
[SIZE=medium]He wasn’t just speaking about “messianic passages,” but more broadly about the “volume of the book.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]God communicates to us through language such as poetry, proverbs, parables, narratives, apocalyptic literature, etc. God is not a 21st century Western American who wants to make everything fit into a science book. Are you telling me that there is literally going to be a multi-headed dragon that erupts from the sea and beast-like creatures are going to crawl out of the ocean and ground as declared in Revelation? I mean, if you want to be "literal" and take God at his word...this is what you are saying...right? So who gets to decide what is a metaphor, image, or literal declaration? Why is it okay for you to view this symbolically, but is an offense to God's word for me to view Isaiah's prophetic vision of paradise that way? Are you suggesting the New Jerusalem will be a literal cube with walls around it that have gems in them? What good would walls be in heaven? What good are walls today??? The locusts with long hair and teeth....what about those? The prophets in the OT often paint beautiful pictures of the promises of God in to a people who are about to undergo horrible judgment. These pictures are way better when understood in their imagery than when flattened by a Western modernistic agenda. For example. Jesus said we should forgive like the Father forgives...70x7. Does that mean God only forgives 490 times? or, is 7 a number of perfection and completion multiplied by itself times 10? Which is more beautiful and powerful? Which is a more limiting and narrow look at God's word?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]I still think that you’re missing the point that I’m trying to make. God has promised a national Israel, a Kingdom, which will reign over the earth, with Jesus Christ as it’s king, and the church as it’s rulers, in the same manner in which God gave over the rule of the earth to angels until the rightful inheritor of the promises came, that is Jesus Christ. While the book of Revelation is filled with symbolic imagery, the promises given to Israel, as a nation, by the prophets and also through Moses, are by no means allegorical writing, poetry, parables, or simple historical writing. They are covenant promises. God will demonstrate the superiority of Jesus and of those that He’s renewed in His image over the angels, with a thousand years of generations raised under the guidance of His glorified children, and a final release of Satan to test their work. I think God is a little more concerned with the glory of His Son and with keeping His promises, than with imaginative imagery to inspire men. How do you get a metaphor out of a covenant? What kind of exegeses is that? By the way, God judged Israel for her disobedience, but always preserved a remnant. Paul addressed that remnant in Romans and obviously wasn’t talking about the occasional Jewish person who turned to Christ. The original church was entirely Jewish and Paul was speaking of the future, not of the past. Again, using doctrine to put meaning into scripture is Isogetical, not exogetical.[/SIZE]

 

[Wormwood]

"No, the types were revelations of the person of Jesus, before He was born to human flesh, though writers sometimes use them in reference to Jesus to make a point. Jesus said, You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. John 5:39
He wasn’t just speaking about “messianic passages,” but more broadly about the “volume of the book.”"

Huh? All I said was Melchizedek makes reference to Jesus. I think you're diverting from the simplicity of my original point.

"I still think that you’re missing the point that I’m trying to make. God has promised a national Israel, a Kingdom, which will reign over the earth, with Jesus Christ as it’s king, and the church as it’s rulers, in the same manner in which God gave over the rule of the earth to angels until the rightful inheritor of the promises came, that is Jesus Christ."

Do you have a verse for that promise?


"While the book of Revelation is filled with symbolic imagery, the promises given to Israel, as a nation, by the prophets and also through Moses, are by no means allegorical writing, poetry, parables, or simple historical writing. They are covenant promises."

How do you get a metaphor out of a covenant? What kind of exegeses is that?

When did I say Gods covenant was a metaphor? The text you referenced about children dying at 100 is not a covenant. You're overstating you case.

By the way, God judged Israel for her disobedience, but always preserved a remnant. Paul addressed that remnant in Romans and obviously wasn’t talking about the occasional Jewish person who turned to Christ.

Yes, that is precisely what it is saying. Look at the context for yourself.

even us whom he ihas called, jnot from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
k“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’ ”
26 l“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called m‘sons of the living God.’ ”
27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: n“Though the number of the sons of Israel3 be as the sand of the sea, oonly a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.”

This is referring to the church, believing Jews and Gentiles. The remnant are the believing Jews and the sentence is judgment on the unbelieving who "stumble over the stumbling stone."

The original church was entirely Jewish and Paul was speaking of the future, not of the past. Again, using doctrine to put meaning into scripture is Isogetical, not exogetical."

I don't know what you are referencing here. How am I inserting something into Romans. Just cause you don't like my interpretation doesn't mean I'm not drawing it from the text itself.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hello again, bitterness,
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

30 “Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God drives you, 2 and you return to the Lord your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 that the Lord your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the Lord your God has scattered you. 4 If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you. 5 Then the Lord your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. Deuteronomy 30:1-6

This passage from Deuteronomy is very specifically from the covenant that God made with "the nation of Israel," the covenant of law. This is by no means promised to Abraham, as those promises and the covenant made with Abraham are a different covenant and one of faith. The covenant of law is one of works. The fact that the covenant of law has been replaced by the new covenant, doesn't nullify God's promises to "national" Israel. He blessed Israel as a nation and cursed Israel as a nation, and promised a restoration to Israel as a nation. The books of the prophets repeat these same promises to that nation under God's judgment.
One of the books that you've quoted very heavily, when speaking of the promises of the inheritance says that "it is impossible for God to lie" So, I put it to you plainly, is Deuteronomy 30:1-6 the word of God? Did He make a promise to Israel here, even as He kept His promises regarding the cursing and blessing of that "nation"? Will He keep His promise or did He lie?

 

[Wormwood]

Michael,

Thanks for responding. Sometimes it takes some bitterness and challenges to what is comfortable for people to enable them to repent and turn to The Lord Even Wormwood had a redemptive purpose.

If I am being obtuse, then the entire church for 1800 years must have been obtuse as well. No believer in the history of the church prior to Darby and company ever interpreted these "promises" as limited to national Israel in light of God's fuller revelation in Christ. You make it sound like this is so plain and basic that one has to ignore it not to see it. However, NO CHRISTIAN in history ever saw these points you feel are so obvious until about 200 years ago. So while this doesnt prove me right, it certainly proves that my views are not based on merely being "obtuse." Rather, I am consistent with what believers have understood about the church and the promises of God for almost two thousand years.

You should look again at verse 6. The NT writers use this language in reference to believing the Gospel and receiving the Spirit. Paul, Stephen and others spoke of those who rejected the Gospel as evidence of having "uncircumcised hearts" and ears. So, if one has to become a believer in Jesus Christ to receive the circumcision of the heart, then this promise is fulfilled for a believing people...not merely a national people. To say otherwise is to make the flesh a priority over the faith. That has been my point and I think Romans 9-10 cannot be more clear that those who do not believe are "cut off" from the tree (which represents Israel) and those who believe who are not of national Israel are "grafted in." Thus, it is belief that makes someone part of true Israel, both Jews and Gentiles.

Futhermore, Paul speaks regularly of the "gathering" of God's people at the Second coming of Christ. So it is not that I discount this promise. Not at all. I just see this promise as eschatological and referring to the heavenly realities of which the earthly lands and cities are merely a shadow.

This shows how God's people will be gathered to live in the land and receive the rest and righteousness he promised.

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one “like a son of man”a with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5 for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

God promised to save his people, make their righteousness shine like the sun, drive away their enemies, establish Jerusalem over all the earth and give them abundant, lasting life. These promises are all fulfilled here....I see no need for a lesser fulfillment to prove God's promises are true. All of his promises are "yes" to US IN CHRIST Paul declares.

 

[veteran]

There is really only one word for "rapture" regarding the Second Coming in the New Testament. It is in 1Thess. 4 where the dead in Christ are raised first and the living, with the raised are "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air on the same day that the wicked are judged (cf. 1 Thess 5:2-3).

Let's go back to the beginning as to what you state your beliefs on the rapture are.

The Greek word for "caught up" in 1 Thess.4 is 'harpazo', which means 'to sieze'. Greek 'harpazo' is used in different situations within The New Testament though. Paul also used 'harpazo' in 2 Cor.12 about being caught up to Paradise. From further study of the word, and the events of 1 Thess.4 in context, none of that limits us only to the 1 Thess.4 example of that "caught up" event at Christ's coming.

So when you say things like, "There is really only one word for "rapture" regarding the Second Coming in the New Testament," and it's only in 1 Thess.4, that is misleading.

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(KJV)

That Greek word 'allasso' for "be changed" and "shall be changed" is a word for that same 'harpazo' event of 1 Thess.4:17. Just because Paul uses a different word to describe that event, that's supposed to mean he was speaking of some different event? No, not hardly.

It's because God's Word declares TWO groups of saints being gathered by Christ at His coming:

1. "the dead shall be raised incorruptible"
2. "we shall be changed"

Do we have these same two groups of saints given in the 1 Thess.4 Scripture like here in 1 Cor.15? Yes...

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

1. "the dead in Christ shall rise first"
2. "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"


What about the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 chapters where our Lord Jesus Himself taught about this event?

Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

Once again, we see Christ's gathering of TWO groups of saints, one group from one end of heaven to the other represeting those who 'sleep' in Jesus that He will bring with Him, and then the other group from the uttermost part of the earth which represent those of us who remain alive on earth to the day of His coming.

So, it is not that I am "anti-rapture," but I am "anti-secret rapture" ala Left Behind/Tim LaHaye/Hal Lindsay. Thus, I do not believe 1.3 billion people will disappear either before or after some period known as the Great Tribulation, 7 years before the Second Coming. The only Great Tribulation I see in Revelation is the one John claims he is enduring (Rev. 1:9).

You've never read these verses then???

Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(KJV)

Rev 7:14
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
(KJV)


What about this verse in Daniel 12?

Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(KJV)


It's pretty clear Wormwood, that you only 'see' what you want... to see... as a requirement of the doctrine you're following.

So, in my own words, it looks like this. Jesus returns with a great trumpet blast, the shout of the Archangel and the dead are raised. The heavens will flee from his presence and all mankind will fall on their knees at his presence. The wicked are "raptured" first by angels to be gathered together and burnt (Matt. 13:47; 24:36-43). Then the dead and the living in Christ will be "raptured" to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:17). Then the earth will be purged with fire (2 Peter 3:10). Then a new heavens and new earth will appear and the people of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, will descend back upon the new earth to live in the presence of the Lord forever (Rev. 21:1-2).

Well, that is COMPLETELY omitting the Revelation 20 chapter about Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth with His elect over the nations, and all associated Scripture with that chapter.

You're just following the same old doctrines of men that many others here do, which wrongly teach them to take away from the Words of The Book.


Here's one such associated Scripture the substantiates Christ's future "thousand years" reign on the earth, with this earth not being destroyed...


Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(KJV)

That event has NEVER... to this day ever happenned on this earth. Those events are all for AFTER... Christ's second coming on the day of The LORD. It is a direct parallel about the 'nations' of Rev.20 during Christ's future "thousand years" reign.


What did Apostle Paul say about that future "thousand years" reign by Christ?

1 Cor 15:23-26
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
(KJV)

That's exactly what Jesus is doing with His elect in the Revelation 20 chapter for a "thousand years", i.e., reigning OVER all His enemies on this earth! Even in Rev.2 Jesus tells His elect that He make those of the "synagogue of Satan" to come and worship before the feet of His elect, which has never... happened yet to this day.

You have a whole LOT... of Scripture MISSING from the 'doctrine of men' that you choose to follow.

 

[Wormwood]

Veteran,

The straw men have all toppled over, but lets look at what I actually said and the point of this thread.

1. I said there is only one word for "rapture" regarding the 2nd coming. I agree that it means to seize, or be caught up. The idea of the secret "rapture" many talk about today has to do with people being secretly "seized" from the world while leaving others behind. There is only ONE place in the NT that speaks of people being seized in relation to the 2nd coming. I was pretty clear on this. 2 Cor. 12 uses the same word, but this hardly has to do with the 2nd coming of Jesus. If so, then we all missed it and we can just close this thread down.

2. I never said other passages did not speak of the 2nd coming. I agree with you that "we will be changed" has to do with Jesus' second coming and our bodily transformations. However, this says nothing about a "rapture." The point is...there is no secret rapture that snatches people from the world. There is one "rapture" that will happen when Christ returns and at that moment we will all be changed...and the unbelievers will be judged. So while "we will all be changed" may deal with the 2nd coming...it certainly doesnt give evidence of a secret rapture as many espouse. So...I dont see how this goes against my OP.

I gotta run now. Will respond to the rest later.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Michael,

Thanks for responding. Sometimes it takes some bitterness and challenges to what is comfortable for people to enable them to repent and turn to The Lord Even Wormwood had a redemptive purpose.

If I am being obtuse, then the entire church for 1800 years must have been obtuse as well. No believer in the history of the church prior to Darby and company ever interpreted these "promises" as limited to national Israel in light of God's fuller revelation in Christ. You make it sound like this is so plain and basic that one has to ignore it not to see it. However, NO CHRISTIAN in history ever saw these points you feel are so obvious until about 200 years ago. So while this doesnt prove me right, it certainly proves that my views are not based on merely being "obtuse." Rather, I am consistent with what believers have understood about the church and the promises of God for almost two thousand years.

You should look again at verse 6. The NT writers use this language in reference to believing the Gospel and receiving the Spirit. Paul, Stephen and others spoke of those who rejected the Gospel as evidence of having "uncircumcised hearts" and ears. So, if one has to become a believer in Jesus Christ to receive the circumcision of the heart, then this promise is fulfilled for a believing people...not merely a national people. To say otherwise is to make the flesh a priority over the faith. That has been my point and I think Romans 9-10 cannot be more clear that those who do not believe are "cut off" from the tree (which represents Israel) and those who believe who are not of national Israel are "grafted in." Thus, it is belief that makes someone part of true Israel, both Jews and Gentiles.

Futhermore, Paul speaks regularly of the "gathering" of God's people at the Second coming of Christ. So it is not that I discount this promise. Not at all. I just see this promise as eschatological and referring to the heavenly realities of which the earthly lands and cities are merely a shadow.

This shows how God's people will be gathered to live in the land and receive the rest and righteousness he promised.

God promised to save his people, make their righteousness shine like the sun, drive away their enemies, establish Jerusalem over all the earth and give them abundant, lasting life. These promises are all fulfilled here....I see no need for a lesser fulfillment to prove God's promises are true. All of his promises are "yes" to US IN CHRIST Paul declares.

I understand your opinion, but how in the world do you know that "NO CHRISTIAN in history ever saw these points you feel are so obvious until about 200 years ago." You couldn't possibly know such a thing unless you're God and I'm reasonably sure that such isn't the case. I'm unfamiliar with Mr. Darby, but if he believed the promises of God, good for him.
You skated over the simple questions that I've asked you in the last post and based your response on something that you can't possibly know.
I don't believe that my opinion has any more value than yours. I've been known to quote a saying about opinions that I learned while serving in the USAF, but repeating it here would likely get me ejected from the forums. However, I wasn't called to give my opinion about anything. My calling is to proclaim the gospel and the truth of God's word, with conviction and understanding, and as "the oracles of God" according to the measure of faith that I've received. You seem to be missing the point that the promises of a national Israel are made to us, as much as they were made to Jacob, and the church remains an essential part of those promises.
You speak of greater "heavenly realities," but what greater heavenly reality is there than proving that God's word is both true and eternal. The millennial reign isn't necessary for our redemption, but it is necessary to prove the truth of God revealed in the person of Jesus Christ to all men, including those that reject Him, as well as to the angels, including those that rebelled against Him. You don't have to believe it, but that doesn't make it less true.

 

[sanhedrin]

Let's go back to the beginning as to what you state your beliefs on the rapture are.

The Greek word for "caught up" in 1 Thess.4 is 'harpazo', which means 'to sieze'. Greek 'harpazo' is used in different situations within The New Testament though. Paul also used 'harpazo' in 2 Cor.12 about being caught up to Paradise. From further study of the word, and the events of 1 Thess.4 in context, none of that limits us only to the 1 Thess.4 example of that "caught up" event at Christ's coming.

So when you say things like, "There is really only one word for "rapture" regarding the Second Coming in the New Testament," and it's only in 1 Thess.4, that is misleading.

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(KJV)

That Greek word 'allasso' for "be changed" and "shall be changed" is a word for that same 'harpazo' event of 1 Thess.4:17. Just because Paul uses a different word to describe that event, that's supposed to mean he was speaking of some different event? No, not hardly.

It's because God's Word declares TWO groups of saints being gathered by Christ at His coming:

1. "the dead shall be raised incorruptible"
2. "we shall be changed"

Do we have these same two groups of saints given in the 1 Thess.4 Scripture like here in 1 Cor.15? Yes...

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

1. "the dead in Christ shall rise first"
2. "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"


What about the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 chapters where our Lord Jesus Himself taught about this event?

Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

Once again, we see Christ's gathering of TWO groups of saints, one group from one end of heaven to the other represeting those who 'sleep' in Jesus that He will bring with Him, and then the other group from the uttermost part of the earth which represent those of us who remain alive on earth to the day of His coming.

I Cor. 15 is simply talking about the dead and the living who will be both changed to incorruptible and that is for sure to happen in the Judgment Day or the second coming of the Lord Jesus. In those verses above, there are always two groups of people to be changed in that very hour - the dead and the living. If we will notice in those verses, incorruption and immortality is one and the same thing and it is conversion from one nature to another nature - mortal being to spirit being which is our final state of being to be spent with the Lord in Paradise or in torment in Hell (death is swallowed up in victory).

Paul did not mention that after the incorruption and immortality, there will be still be people to be left behind in this earth, did he? And come to think of it, why did not the Lord Jesus Christ teach anything about the rapture if there is really rapture that is to take place sooner or later? Why do others force Paul's words over Jesus' words in the bible, which one must really prevails?

 

[michaelvpardo]

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34
Not much point to a kingdom without subjects.

 

[veteran]

I Cor. 15 is simply talking about the dead and the living who will be both changed to incorruptible and that is for sure to happen in the Judgment Day or the second coming of the Lord Jesus. In those verses above, there are always two groups of people to be changed in that very hour - the dead and the living. If we will notice in those verses, incorruption and immortality is one and the same thing and it is conversion from one nature to another nature - mortal being to spirit being which is our final state of being to be spent with the Lord in Paradise or in torment in Hell (death is swallowed up in victory).

Paul did not mention that after the incorruption and immortality, there will be still be people to be left behind in this earth, did he? And come to think of it, why did not the Lord Jesus Christ teach anything about the rapture if there is really rapture that is to take place sooner or later? Why do others force Paul's words over Jesus' words in the bible, which one must really prevails?

I think you're a little mixed up. NONE of what I covered there was to support some false Pre-trib Rapture. Instead, it all... supports Christ's gathering of His Church of both the 'asleep' saints in Heaven and His saints still alive on earth, AT THE SAME TIME.

It is a detail focus upon the very act of the 'gathering' of the saints. I did not go into the time of that, like before or after the tribulation (though God's Word declares it will occur at the end of the great tribulation - Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

What I showed there from God's Word is just 'how' ALL ... of those 1 Cor.15, 1 Thess.4, Matt.24, and Mark 13 Scriptures are about the very SAME event of the gathering of The Church by our Lord Jesus Christ.


Concerning The 1 Corinthians 15 Example:

Paul is preaching the 'same' idea of 1 Thess.4 in the following...

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In 1 Thess.4 Paul spoke of the 'asleep' saints, to not worry about them, because our Lord Jesus is going to 'bring' them WITH HIM when He comes. That means those asleep saints return WITH our Lord Jesus. But His saints still alive on earth, which are not... asleep, are instead "changed", even "in the twinkling of an eye". There is no way to miscontrue those events apart from the 1 Thess.4 events.

As for the KJV words "corruptible", "incorruption", "this mortal", and "immortality", they are FOUR SEPARATE Greek words per the New Testament manuscripts. I'll give their meanings here in context (but you can do your own research):

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible (perishable body) must put on incorruption (non-perishable), and this mortal (liable to die) must put on immortality (deathlessness).
(KJV)

If you try to apply all those four words to be about the same object you run into a major problem. It would leave no room for how the "second death" into the future "lake of fire" destroys the devil and the abode of hell which are not of... flesh material matter. It even confuses the mere idea of a first death, which is of the flesh. Can the flesh... really die a second time per God's Word?? The answer is NO.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body (flesh body), but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body (spirit body) in hell (lake of fire).
(KJV)

That second mention of "body" is the incorruptible body. How? Because we know the wicked dead are RESURRECTED too (John 5:28-29). Men's traditions have always taught the body of 'incorruption' Paul mentioned means automatic Salvation through our Lord Jesus, some of the Jews even misunderstanding it by thinking only Christ's Church will have that incorruptible body while the wicked remain in flesh bodies. That is not so per God's Word. It's like Paul said in 1 Cor.15:49, as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Have the wicked here on earth borne the image of the earthy? Yes. Likewise they also will bear the image of the heavenly, i.e., the "spiritual body" Paul spoke of in v.44.

The difference between the wicked and Christ's servants in that time will be, the CONDITION of the soul. That is actually the part Paul was speaking about with "this mortal" (liable to die) that MUST put on immortality to receive Christ's Salvation. The souls of the wicked will still be in a 'liable to die' condition. But they will be in the "spiritual body" state also at Christ's coming. We all will, for Christ's future "thousand years" reign will be the end of man's time in flesh bodies. Another pointer to this is the Isaiah 25 Scripture where Apostle Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up in victory for that future time. It shows all peoples having the vail of this world removed off them.

 

[Wormwood]

I understand your opinion, but how in the world do you know that "NO CHRISTIAN in history ever saw these points you feel are so obvious until about 200 years ago." You couldn't possibly know such a thing unless you're God and I'm reasonably sure that such isn't the case. I'm unfamiliar with Mr. Darby, but if he believed the promises of God, good for him.
You skated over the simple questions that I've asked you in the last post and based your response on something that you can't possibly know.
I don't believe that my opinion has any more value than yours. I've been known to quote a saying about opinions that I learned while serving in the USAF, but repeating it here would likely get me ejected from the forums. However, I wasn't called to give my opinion about anything. My calling is to proclaim the gospel and the truth of God's word, with conviction and understanding, and as "the oracles of God" according to the measure of faith that I've received. You seem to be missing the point that the promises of a national Israel are made to us, as much as they were made to Jacob, and the church remains an essential part of those promises.
You speak of greater "heavenly realities," but what greater heavenly reality is there than proving that God's word is both true and eternal. The millennial reign isn't necessary for our redemption, but it is necessary to prove the truth of God revealed in the person of Jesus Christ to all men, including those that reject Him, as well as to the angels, including those that rebelled against Him. You don't have to believe it, but that doesn't make it less true.

Excuse me.... no Christian leader, teacher or writer in recorded Christian history every had such dispensational beliefs about these promises applying to national Israel.

 

[veteran]

Excuse me.... no Christian leader, teacher or writer in recorded Christian history every had such dispensational beliefs about these promises applying to national Israel.

You'll have eat crow with that kind of statement. John Darby's Dispensationalism also agreed in God's Word about His promises to the seed of Israel that their nation would be restored in final under Christ Jesus, even to include the original inheritances of the land to the 12 tribes. British Bible scholars of Darby's era like E.W. Bullinger also agreed with God's Word on that.

Sounds like you might be listening to some of the Hyper-Dispensationalists of later 20th century times.

 

[Spirit Covenant]

I am reluctant to start another "rapture thread"
The topic has been debated to death many times already

I can appreciate and respect the beliefs of the anti-rapture folks
But the doctrine is always about ... "how wrong the pre-tribbers are"


For once I would like to hear the explanation of how the christian church (1.3 billion people) fit into the tribulation events.

Please try to explain it in your own words .... (it doesn't have to be perfect ) ... (just an overview)

Every thing will go on as It has for the past two thousand years right up to the time when the Lord sends his two witnesses. The Lords two witnesses will shut down the world as we know it and start the three and a half year great tribulation. You can read about them in REV 11, Daniel 12 and Zechariah 4. After the great tribulation the Lord will return to set up His kingdom here on Earth. This is when the saints will go up into the air of earth to meet Him at His coming. It all happens in a moment in a flash of lightning. As the Lightning shines from the east to the west and as it twinkles in the eye of the beholder the Lord will seem to those who are watching to just be coming with His army of saints.

 

[veteran]

1. I said there is only one word for "rapture" regarding the 2nd coming. I agree that it means to seize, or be caught up.

Yeah, and I showed by Scripture how you are wrong about that. There's more than one word used for that point of the 'gathering' to Christ at His coming.

You see, I'm well aware of how the Pre-trib Rapture school wrongly... tries to separate the 1 Thess.4 "caught up" Scripture away... from all other Bible descriptions of that event.

2. I never said other passages did not speak of the 2nd coming. I agree with you that "we will be changed" has to do with Jesus' second coming and our bodily transformations. However, this says nothing about a "rapture." The point is...there is no secret rapture that snatches people from the world. There is one "rapture" that will happen when Christ returns and at that moment we will all be changed...and the unbelievers will be judged. So while "we will all be changed" may deal with the 2nd coming...it certainly doesnt give evidence of a secret rapture as many espouse. So...I dont see how this goes against my OP.

If the 1 Cor.15 Scripture is speaking of being 'changed' at the 'twinkling of an eye' wtihout using the Greek word 'harpazo', does it have any less meaning about the "caught up" of 1 Thess.4? No, of course not. Instead, the 1 Cor.15 is giving us another view of it, MORE detailed even.

Furthermore, the word 'rapture' itself is NOT... in the New Testament Greek manuscripts. That word is an English transliteration from the Latin word used for Greek harpazo. So wanting to even argue over that word 'rapture' is meaningless.


A Mystery -

When one studies the other NT examples of how Greek harpazo is used in the sense of one being siezed away, we discover more that shows how to properly interpret the "caught up" of 1 Thess.4:17.

In Acts 8, Philip was "caught away" in his flesh, literally removed from one location on earth to another location on earth by The LORD. In 2 Cor.12, Paul spoke of one that was "caught up" to God's Paradise. In Rev.12:5, it's about our Lord Jesus' ascending to The Father in Heaven.

We are thus left with only 3 Bible examples of its usage in relation to 1 Thess.4:

1. being "caught away" in the flesh
2. our spirit being caught up to Paradise while our flesh is left behind
3. Christ in His resurrection body ascending to The Father in Heaven


What use then is the lesson Apostle Paul gave us in 1 Cor.15 about the mystery of the resurrection and change at the twinkling of an eye on the day of Christ's coming? Simple, it's a FURTHER DETAIL of the "caught up" event to show us 'how' it will occur. And what Paul showed with that is the event will be likened to No.2 more than anything else.

In 1 Cor.15:50 Paul said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, as neither can corruption inherit incorruption. So that leaves out No.1 like what happened to Philip since he was merely transported in his flesh upon the earth. We know we'd have to die and be resurrected and somehow be on earth before we could ascend to Heaven like our Lord Jesus did, so that leaves out No.3. And that would omit those of us Paul said that remain alive to Christ's coming being 'changed'.

Thus the "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4 will be more like No.2. I believe Apostle Paul was speaking about himself in modesty about being caught up to Paradise in 2 Cor.12, for he had once been stoned and thought dead, until the disciples stood over him and he arose (Acts 14:19-20). Paul's spirit is what was "caught up" to the third Heaven, not his flesh that was stoned laying on the ground.

Throw in with that what our Lord Jesus said in Matt.22:30 that those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven", and we have yet another clue of 1 Thess.4:17 being like No.2.

Consider the Zechariah 14 Scripture of Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, and all the saints fleeing there, and we have yet another part of this mystery of 1 Thess.4:17. It also reveals the heavenly being revealed upon this earth with Christ's coming, which is what the Isaiah 25 Scripture reveals where Paul was pulling the death swallowed up in victory idea from (thus Isaiah 25 is part of this 1 Thess.4 "caught up" event also).

There are many other Bible Scripture related to that 1 Thess.4 event of Christ's coming to gather His saints, both from Heaven and from the earth. And this is how... one properly begins to get the big picture of such an event per God's Word, being careful to compare Scripture with Scripture.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Jesus said "he that believeth on me shall never die"

He was speaking of spiritual death, we will go right on to heaven when we leave our fleshly body. That is our rapture.

This is based on scripture.

Covered by His blood

 

[michaelvpardo]

Excuse me.... no Christian leader, teacher or writer in recorded Christian history every had such dispensational beliefs about these promises applying to national Israel.

Hello Bitterness, perhaps you should change your screen name to "arrogance."
Prior to the invention of the printing press, the vast majority of the population was illiterate. During most of the church's history, anyone who had anything to say that disagreed with what came out of Rome was labeled as a heretic and at risk of excommunication, torture or execution. Do you possess every written document from every born again believer that ever lived? Highly unlikely. Do you possess copies of the documents that have been destroyed or hidden away, because they were deemed by "church authorities" as illegitimate or uninspired or heretical? Highly unlikely. Nothing that I've said is the least bit dispensationalist, but apparently you aren't able to understand what I'm saying. I've presented what God has said in His word, so you're really not arguing with me, but with Him. Show me your authority, I've already shown you mine; the Word of God. Your unbelief won't affect His will in the slightest, nor alter His plan. God will demonstrate Himself entirely just in the judgment by fulfilling His word. No man will be able to justify himself in his unbelief by claiming that God's word wasn't kept to those whom He gave it to. If you don't understand these things, perhaps you don't know God at all. If that's the case, then I urge you to confess your nature of sin to Him and your inability to save yourself, then throw yourself upon His mercy by believing in His Son, Jesus Christ. He is the faithful witness to everything we say and do, including those things which are being posted here.