If no Rapture - then what ?

[Arnie Manitoba]

I am reluctant to start another "rapture thread"
The topic has been debated to death many times already

I can appreciate and respect the beliefs of the anti-rapture folks
But the doctrine is always about ... "how wrong the pre-tribbers are"


For once I would like to hear the explanation of how the christian church (1.3 billion people) fit into the tribulation events.

Please try to explain it in your own words .... (it doesn't have to be perfect ) ... (just an overview)

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hi Arnie,
One thing that you notice while reading the book of the revelation, is that there are a whole lot of people dieing. You also see that during at least one of the plagues, that those with the mark of the beast are not permitted to die even though they wish for death. I wouldn't be dogmatic about it, but I'm inclined to believe that many of those who die during the tribulation period are professing Christians. To the degree that we understand geological phenomena, almost the entire population of the United States could be taken out by a single eruption of the great caldera underneath yellowstone national park. If you saw the movie "2012," the eruption at that park was based upon real geological data, but what was depicted in the movie probably didn't represent the potential release of energy that could happen if the caldera became a super volcano. I don't actually believe that such an eruption will happen, but it could. However, the book of the revelation describes some disasters which would be on the same sort of scale. Well before the invention of the atomic bomb, in the early 1900s (?) there was an explosion which occured over an isolated region in Russia called Tunguska (I'm unsure of my spelling here). That explosion leveled hundreds of square miles of forest, and whatever it was that struck the atmosphere there had to be relatively small. Something like a mountain striking the earth, would cause immense devastating damage, and anything living within miles of the strike would be killed in seconds. Some people would say that this couldn't happen to Christians, because they aren't supposed to experience the wrath of God, but Christians have been dieing in disasters since the resurrection of our Lord, and how would this be any different. For us, death shouldn't hold any great threat.
The Lord has promised that our boides will be raised incorruptible (at the return of Christ) and that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. None of us wants to experience an unpleasant death, but I can't imagine too many ways to go more unpleasant than dying from cancer or some other slow and degenerative disease, yet christians are not immune to such things. Our purpose on the earth remains what it is now until the day that Christ returns, to spread the gospel and make disciples of men. The fact that men reject the gospel, hate God and those who serve Him, and persecute and kill Christians is nothing new. We are counted as lambs for the slaughter, but this doesn't diminish God's love for us in the least:
“For a mere moment I have forsaken you,
But with great mercies I will gather you.
8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment;
But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,”
Says the Lord, your Redeemer. Isaiah 54:7-8
I'm inclined to believe that individuals like me, who have shown the least love toward those on the outside, will have to stay around the longest in order to learn compassion through the suffering of others, although I would hope that I am wrong. But even so, come Lord Jesus, come. Amen.

 

[IBeMe]

Right now is the time to make sure the ship is ready to weather the storm.

Can't put it off until we're in the middle of the storm.

And everywhere I look I see dark clouds.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

.

Thank you Michael .... I am off to a family gathering this afternoon ... so a short reply for now ..... I have displayed your post in red with my comments in black


.

Hi Arnie,
One thing that you notice while reading the book of the revelation, is that there are a whole lot of people dieing. You also see that during at least one of the plagues, that those with the mark of the beast are not permitted to die even though they wish for death. I wouldn't be dogmatic about it, but I'm inclined to believe that many of those who die during the tribulation period are professing Christians.
I agree with a lot of people dying .. plus a lot wishing death but unable .... but to me they are not christians .... they are the ungodly receiving wrath
To the degree that we understand geological phenomena, almost the entire population of the United States could be taken out by a single eruption of the great caldera underneath yellowstone national park. If you saw the movie "2012," the eruption at that park was based upon real geological data, but what was depicted in the movie probably didn't represent the potential release of energy that could happen if the caldera became a super volcano. I don't actually believe that such an eruption will happen, but it could.
I have followed the Yellowstone possibilities for years .... yes it sure would be a massive destruction in the center of our continent ... rather frightening actually ... and could be on the scale of revelation disasters ..... in the back of my mind I consider that maybe it will be released during the tribulation .... maybe God has it planned that way ......on the other hand it could happen tomorrow..
However, the book of the revelation describes some disasters which would be on the same sort of scale. Well before the invention of the atomic bomb, in the early 1900s (?) there was an explosion which occured over an isolated region in Russia called Tunguska (I'm unsure of my spelling here). That explosion leveled hundreds of square miles of forest, and whatever it was that struck the atmosphere there had to be relatively small. Something like a mountain striking the earth, would cause immense devastating damage, and anything living within miles of the strike would be killed in seconds.
I have in my possession a tiny fragment of meteorite than is one of many found in tree bark in the devastated area .... the "explosion" has all the earmarks of a large meteorite exploding in the atmosphere .... they enter the atmosphere at 25;000 mph .... such a strong wave pressure formed in front of the meteorite and it disintegrated .... some make craters (Arizona) but many do not (Russia) .... I hunt and collect meteorites and books on the subject ... (hobbyist) .... in the 1800's it was not known (beleived) that rocks could come from space .. thus all the misinformation on the cause ..... but you make a good point about revelation .... some of the happenings sound just like a meteorite ..... could very well be.
Some people would say that this couldn't happen to Christians, because they aren't supposed to experience the wrath of God, but Christians have been dieing in disasters since the resurrection of our Lord, and how would this be any different. For us, death shouldn't hold any great threat.
Agreed ..... we were never promised only blessings without tribulations ... terrible things can and do happen to Christians .... I do not feel the rapture is simply to protect us from harm (although it would of course) .... but we must be out of the picture because the way I read it .... the Great tribulation is designed from front to back to be against the ungodly in the world .... we are not the un-godly .... and the unspeakable wrath is to convince the ungodly to repent (very few do by the sounds of it) .... and if very few repent .... yet the christian is punished at the same time ..... I fail to see the purpose.
The Lord has promised that our boides will be raised incorruptible (at the return of Christ) and that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. None of us wants to experience an unpleasant death, but I can't imagine too many ways to go more unpleasant than dying from cancer or some other slow and degenerative disease, yet christians are not immune to such things. Our purpose on the earth remains what it is now until the day that Christ returns, to spread the gospel and make disciples of men. The fact that men reject the gospel, hate God and those who serve Him, and persecute and kill Christians is nothing new. We are counted as lambs for the slaughter, but this doesn't diminish God's love for us in the least:
“For a mere moment I have forsaken you,
But with great mercies I will gather you.
8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment;
But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,”
Says the Lord, your Redeemer. Isaiah 54:7-8
....................
I'm inclined to believe that individuals like me, who have shown the least love toward those on the outside, will have to stay around the longest in order to learn compassion through the suffering of others, (I am just as guilty of this) although I would hope that I am wrong. But even so, come Lord Jesus, come. Amen.

Talk later
Arnie M

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hi again Arnie,
I don't mind you using different text colors to distinguish between our comments, but I'd really appreciate it if you used some color other than red. I often use red when quoting Christ and my own words have no weight to them at all. I sometimes write without quoting scripture, but I generally can provide the scripture that my understanding is based upon. I just don't believe it to be necessary unless trying to prove a point and tends to make postings rather long. I'd considered going verse by verse through all the passages used to support pre-trib rapture doctrine and explaining their meaning contextually, which is only sound exegetically, but when people are receiving the doctrine out of a sense of fear (and the great tribulation is a fearful thing) they tend to cling to the doctrine irrationally (fear is not generally rational, especially for those who will never die, or even if they do die, yet live.)
Revelation 20:4-6 is a passage which is written very explicitly about the first resurrection and the church. When the Lord showed me what it is plainly saying, I was convinced that the pre-trib rapture doctrine is in error. You can only change the meaning of the text of Rev. 20:4-6 by adding to what is written in the book of the Revelation and I'm reasonably sure that you will understand the implication of that. It's really not where a believer wants to be going.
I hope that you had a wonderful time with your family gathering. If you want to continue to support the pre-trib rapture doctrine in a public fashion, I would suggest that you are extremely cautious in your handling of Revelation, for your own good. The Lord has better things in mind for us.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Michael .... I agree about the red color .... I feel the same ..... I do not know how to do a multi-quote so that is why ... if I do it again I will use blue ....

 

[Alanforchrist]

Hi again Arnie,
I don't mind you using different text colors to distinguish between our comments, but I'd really appreciate it if you used some color other than red. I often use red when quoting Christ and my own words have no weight to them at all. I sometimes write without quoting scripture, but I generally can provide the scripture that my understanding is based upon. I just don't believe it to be necessary unless trying to prove a point and tends to make postings rather long. I'd considered going verse by verse through all the passages used to support pre-trib rapture doctrine and explaining their meaning contextually, which is only sound exegetically, but when people are receiving the doctrine out of a sense of fear (and the great tribulation is a fearful thing) they tend to cling to the doctrine irrationally (fear is not generally rational, especially for those who will never die, or even if they do die, yet live.)
Revelation 20:4-6 is a passage which is written very explicitly about the first resurrection and the church. When the Lord showed me what it is plainly saying, I was convinced that the pre-trib rapture doctrine is in error. You can only change the meaning of the text of Rev. 20:4-6 by adding to what is written in the book of the Revelation and I'm reasonably sure that you will understand the implication of that. It's really not where a believer wants to be going.
I hope that you had a wonderful time with your family gathering. If you want to continue to support the pre-trib rapture doctrine in a public fashion, I would suggest that you are extremely cautious in your handling of Revelation, for your own good. The Lord has better things in mind for us.

The reason your words have no weight in them Is because you don't understand the end times, For instance, The first resurrection in Rev 20. Has nothing to do with the Church age.
The Church had already been raptured, came back with Jesus and reigned with Him for a thousand years.
And at the rapture of the Church, The departed Christians come from heaven with Jesus and collect their new bodies.
1 Cor 15: 48--54. 1 Thess 4: 13--18. This is the real first resurrection, The first one in Rev 20, Is the first one after the dispenstion of wrath.
The Old Testament was the dispensation of law.
The New Testament [The Church age], Is the dispensation of Grace. See Jn 1: 16--17.
And the tribulation is the dispensation of wrath. Rev 6: 17. Rev 12: 12.
But the Church isn't apointed to wrath. 1 Thess 5: 9.

Please note, At the physical coming of Jesus, There is no rapture or resurrection. Rev 19: 11--16.
Plus, Jesus is coming to take His people to heaven, Jn 14: 1--3, This connot be at the physical coming of Jesus, Because there would be no point in going to heaven just to come straight back to earth again.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Revelation 20:4-6 is a passage which is written very explicitly about the first resurrection and the church.

Agree about first resurrection ... not sure about the word "Church" .... lets take a look ...

... And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

These beheaded ones certainly testified about Jesus ... and they certainly were here during the tribulation .... and they certainly refused the mark ... and they certainly will be the ones who will reign with Christ for the 1000 years .... no way to dispute that whatsoever .

Is this the "church" ? .... if so , we have several possibilities
-- all 1.3 billion Christians on earth have been beheaded during the tribulation
-- if so , all 1.3 billion Christians will reign with Christ for the 1000 years
-- the second death has no power over them
-- that leaves no Christians on earth at the start of the 1000 years
-- that leaves nobody left to populate the millennium
-- nobody on earth for the 1.3 billion Christians to reign over
-- no Christians on earth for Christ to translate (rapture)
-- we have a problem


or another possibility
-- only some of the "church" were beheaded .... the rest survived the tribulation (still alive on earth)
-- the alive ones populate the millennium kingdom
--the tribulation beheaded-ones reign over the still-alive christians
-- the second death will have power over them
-- that leaves nobody for Christ to translate a split second after the resurrection of the beheaded ones
-- there is nobody else on earth (no unsaved)


or another possibility
-- when Christ comes to earth to reign for the millennium
-- he first resurrects the beheaded ones and brings them down to reign with him
-- a split second after resurrecting the beheaded ones ... he translates (raptures) the alive ones (who survived the tribulation)
-- the translated ones meet him in the clouds in the air to be with him for evermore
-- but Christ is heading to earth with the beheaded ones
-- where do the translated (raptured) ones go .... ??
-- if they come back to earth a split second after Christ removed them from earth we still have a problem
-- no humans on earth to populate the millennium kingdom

Getting late .... off to bed .... I will continue to focus on those Rev 20:4-6 verses tomorrow and see how they fit (or not)

I have typed this out using my own thoughts and logic and do not claim to be correct ... but it is a start.
I have not (and will not) change one single word in the book of revelation

ps: ... yes .... had a good family visit (thanks) .... on my way home I stopped at a gas-conv store owned by a long time friend from India (Hindu background) (really nice guy - well respected) ... knows I am Christian .... he is happy and successful businessman who has accomplished everything he wanted .... but something missing ..... asking me about Christianity .... everything happens for a purpose .... his name is Haas (pronounced Hazz)
Just saw your post Alan

For instance, The first resurrection in Rev 20. Has nothing to do with the Church age.

(I am pre-trib) .... but lets acknowledge it does say first resurrection

The Church had already been raptured, came back with Jesus and reigned with Him for a thousand years.

(I am pre-trib) ... but lets acknowledge it is only the tribulation beheaded who reign with Christ Rev 20:4

 

[michaelvpardo]

Allanforchrist,
Have you even read the scriptures? The reasons my words have no weight is because they're my own and not God's. His word says that the first resurrection occurs after the destruction of the anti-christ:Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. . I've underlined the relevant words so that you might possibly see them. Try reading them 7 times and maybe they'll sink in. Where do you think the church is while the saints who've been martyrd by the anti-christ are living and reigning with Christ for a thousand years? The "rapture" of 1st thessalonians is describing the 1st resurrection, not some mythical event: 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

Perhaps you should read the book of the Revelation a little more carefully, before you add to it.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

All the doctrine you present is sheer nonsense. The reasons my words have no weight is because they're my own and not God's. His word says that the first resurrection occurs after the destruction of the anti-christ. The "rapture" of 1st thessalonians is describing the 1st resurrection: 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Perhaps you should read the book of the Revelation a little more carefully, before you add to it.

HUH ??? Where did I present doctrine ?
I simply looked at the pros and cons of several possibilities

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hi again Arnie,
I'd hoped this thread was a genuine attempt to understand what the scripture says, but clearly some would rather use the thread to perpetuate a lie. It's a shame as the cost will be very high and possibly more than they can bear. I've done my job, fulfilled the requirement of my calling, and at least with respect to those who've had oppurtunity to hear, my hands are clean. May the Lord continue to bless you and grow you to the fulness of the stature of our Savior, even Christ Jesus. Amen.
I'll say a prayer for Haas after I post this.

HUH ??? Where did I present doctrine ?
I simply looked at the pros and cons of several possibilities

That wasn't written about your post, but the on-line editor does flakey things with deletions. Sorry about that. It seems that the only safe way to create a post is to do it offline with a word processor and then cut and paste. I wouldn't shut you down when you're clearly being honest in your approach here. The same couldn't be said for AFC.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hi again Arnie,
I'd hoped this thread was a genuine attempt to understand what the scripture says, but clearly some would rather use the thread to perpetuate a lie. It's a shame as the cost will be very high and possibly more than they can bear. I've done my job, fulfilled the requirement of my calling, and at least with respect to those who've had oppurtunity to hear, my hands are clean. May the Lord continue to bless you and grow you to the fulness of the stature of our Savior, even Christ Jesus. Amen.
I'll say a prayer for Haas after I post this.

That wasn't written about your post, but the on-line editor does flakey things with deletions. Sorry about that. It seems that the only safe way to create a post is to do it offline with a word processor and then cut and paste. I wouldn't shut you down when you're clearly being honest in your approach here. The same couldn't be said for AFC.

thanks for clearing that up Michael .... I find the software does some strange things on this forum ,, .... and yes ... I do plan to be as honest as I can trying to sort out rapture possibilities. I am hoping for freindly discussions .... I am just as guilty as anyone for getting rude and cutting sometimes. ... I am trying to be better.

Obviously i have pre-trib tendencies ... but it has snags along the way as well .... less snags than mid-trib or post- trib .... but that alone does not make pre-trib true.

Believe it or not I (and most of the pre-tribbers I know ) .... are quite prepared to be wrong , and do not completely rule out being around during at least part of the trib.

I suspected you might pray for Haas .... and I thank you ..... I will keep you updated .... I feel God is reaching into his life .... I have known him for 25 years .... he came to Canada looking for happiness and opportunity .... he accomplished a lot .... but something missing .... and I think he is realizing it is Christ that is missing. Thanks again for praying.
==========================
Back to topic regarding rapture possibilities
One thing i dislike about this forum software is that we cannot make individual posts .... it combines them all .... I prefer shorter posts with dealing with specific topics.

Below in blue are some portions of Thessalonians .... and my comments inserted in black

1 Thessalonians 4:13
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
The above was written because some of the Thessalonians were worried that Christians who recently died had missed out on the coming of the Lord .... the issue is not about the rapture (although we sometimes use it that way)

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
It goes on to say that the dead Christians will actually rise first .... presumably rise from the graves to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air ... then any Christians still alive will be caught up to meet Christ in the clouds in the air ..... again , this is not about the rapture as much as it is to reassure the living christians that the dead ones actually are a split second ahead at the coming of the Lord .... but we use part of it ... ie: .... this "catching-up" is what we call loosely call the rapture ....

The "encouragement in" verse 18 is in regard to reassuring them the departed dead believers have not (will not) miss out on the coming of the Lord .... they had been expecting him any day and were disappointing when friends had died and maybe missed something.

Chapter 5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
When I read the above it almost sounds like the Thessalonians already knew much more about the coming of the Lord than revealed here ..... but they had "forgotten it" temporarily ..... I wish we knew what they knew.

3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
"Peace and safety" is sometimes used to form doctrine that just before the Lord comes there will be a time of peace and safety in the world .... I tend to lean that way myself ..... but I think the main point is the surprise aspect (for the rest of the world)

4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
It sounds like by default ... we Christians will not be caught by surprise .... providing we are awake and alert
6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.


9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath we pre-tribbers sometimes use this as an indication we will not suffer the wrath of the tribulation ... but probably the true context is about the wrath of hell which we will not suffer because it includes the dead Christians (vs 10 below) .... who of course will not go thru the trib see the word salvation next but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

 

[michaelvpardo]

[SIZE=medium]That was a good post Arnie, and pretty much the way I understand the scriptures that you quoted. I thought that I might comment on one part:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]"Peace and safety" is sometimes used to form doctrine that just before the Lord comes there will be a time of peace and safety in the world .... I tend to lean that way myself ..... but I think the main point is the surprise aspect (for the rest of the world)”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I find that I agree with much of the interpretation of the times of the tribulation as presented by Pre-trib. teachers like John MacArthur and David Jeremiah. I just don’t believe that the church is raised and glorified until Christ returns in judgment. Much of the detail about the anti-christ is derived from the book of Daniel and prophecies partially fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. That is Antiochus IV is considered by some to be a type of the anti-christ and desecrated the temple prior to the Maccabean revolt, but this occurred well before the birth of Jesus, who spoke of the abomination of desolation. The book of Daniel suggests that the anti-christ rises to power by peaceful, but deceptive means, and the New Testament authors suggest the same.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Jesus spoke of the times approaching His return as being like a woman going into labor, with disasters, both man made and natural occurring like birth pangs, getting more intense and more frequent as His return approaches. Many people on the planet are already looking for a leader to provide them with solutions to the world’s problems and quite ready to accept one who demonstrates the ability to do so. Prior to the first term election of President Obama, it seemed that his supporters demonstrated an irrational confidence in his ability to bring change, with some in the media lauding him as a modern messiah. I found these things quite disturbing and if things were bad then, they only seem to have gotten worse in the last eight years. Americans were willing to give up many of their freedoms in return for the promise of security when the Patriot Act was signed into law. What will men be willing to do as world events become more disastrous?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The scripture suggests that the anti-christ will be successful in effecting a covenant or treaty to bring a period of peace for three and a half years, and afterwards break his covenant. If the anti-christ receives the backing of an overwhelming military force at his command, he could conceivably enforce a time of peace like the PAX Romana, certainly one more effective than the U.S.A.’s attempts at a PAX Americana. We’ve already seen a number of attempts to bring a peace treaty to the Middle East, and while it’s hard to imagine this happening, there are already people on both sides of the conflict entertaining the possibility of treaties if concessions are made. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]How could these things happen with so many Christians around that are anticipating the events? Some think that a pre-trib rapture will just take Christians out of the way, but so would mass arrests and detentions. Under the Reagan administration and following it, the U.S. Military was drastically cut to reduce the nation’s spending, but the government retains ownership of most of the bases that were closed. These bases are generally equipped with barracks and dormitories, fences and electronic security, and it would take very little to turn them into “detention centers” or our version of concentration camps. I’ve also read reports, that I’m unable to verify, that our government has built large detention centers or minimum security prisons in a number of isolated regions. All these facilities probably wouldn’t be sufficient to hold the entire population of professing Christians, but I’m quite sure that there will be more than a few defections from the ranks when persecution and the threat of imminent death becomes a reality. I’m not saying that these things will happen, but they could and the signs of the times are not encouraging in that respect.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] If we look at the propaganda ministry of Joseph Goebbels, we can see that he caricatured and demonized the Jews in Nazi Germany in much the same manner as Christians are being demonized in our culture, through the media and popular entertainment. Fear and anger need a target and Goebbels gave Germany the Jews, someone is giving America and the west, Christians as a scapegoat. If it isn’t the person who will be called the anti-christ, it is certainly the spirit of anti-christ that has been working in the world for at least two thousand years, (if not throughout history.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I think that I’ve rambled on enough and I have to rise early for work, so I’ll quit here. I’m quite sure that there are members that are more informed about these matters than I am and perhaps they’ll contribute to the commentary.[/SIZE]

 

[Robertson]

Im searching for the word rapture in the Bible. Cant seem to find it. Someone help!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Im searching for the word rapture in the Bible. Cant seem to find it. Someone help!

Hi Robertson

The word rapture does not exist in the bible
It is a man-made word garnered from the snatching up of living Christians in the end times
Also known as the "translation" of living Christians (to new bodies)
All the rest (dead Christians) will be resurrected .... a live body cannot be resurrected (thus the translation)

Some verses in the bible are as follows:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:16-17)

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor 15:51-52)

... and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. ( 1 Thess 1:10)
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. (Matthew 24:40)

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, (2 Thess 2:1)

I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. (Rev 3:10)

There are more references regarding this "gathering" of living Christians to meet Christ in the clouds in the air (rapture) .... it is a known fact that it will indeed happen ..... the controversy surrounds the timing of it ....... (before , during, or after , the tribulation )

The bible is skimpy on the timing details ... (thus the different viewpoints)

best wishes

 

[Robertson]

Thanks Arnie!

I see. Yeah the Bible does jump around a lot and topics are scattered throughout. Obviously we don't have all that was written, but I am glad we have what we do. Maybe some day more will come

 

[Wormwood]

I am reluctant to start another "rapture thread"
The topic has been debated to death many times already

I can appreciate and respect the beliefs of the anti-rapture folks
But the doctrine is always about ... "how wrong the pre-tribbers are"


For once I would like to hear the explanation of how the christian church (1.3 billion people) fit into the tribulation events.

Please try to explain it in your own words .... (it doesn't have to be perfect ) ... (just an overview)

There is really only one word for "rapture" regarding the Second Coming in the New Testament. It is in 1Thess. 4 where the dead in Christ are raised first and the living, with the raised are "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air on the same day that the wicked are judged (cf. 1 Thess 5:2-3).

So, it is not that I am "anti-rapture," but I am "anti-secret rapture" ala Left Behind/Tim LaHaye/Hal Lindsay. Thus, I do not believe 1.3 billion people will disappear either before or after some period known as the Great Tribulation, 7 years before the Second Coming. The only Great Tribulation I see in Revelation is the one John claims he is enduring (Rev. 1:9).

So, in my own words, it looks like this. Jesus returns with a great trumpet blast, the shout of the Archangel and the dead are raised. The heavens will flee from his presence and all mankind will fall on their knees at his presence. The wicked are "raptured" first by angels to be gathered together and burnt (Matt. 13:47; 24:36-43). Then the dead and the living in Christ will be "raptured" to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:17). Then the earth will be purged with fire (2 Peter 3:10). Then a new heavens and new earth will appear and the people of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, will descend back upon the new earth to live in the presence of the Lord forever (Rev. 21:1-2).

 

[michaelvpardo]

There is really only one word for "rapture" regarding the Second Coming in the New Testament. It is in 1Thess. 4 where the dead in Christ are raised first and the living, with the raised are "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air on the same day that the wicked are judged (cf. 1 Thess 5:2-3).

So, it is not that I am "anti-rapture," but I am "anti-secret rapture" ala Left Behind/Tim LaHaye/Hal Lindsay. Thus, I do not believe 1.3 billion people will disappear either before or after some period known as the Great Tribulation, 7 years before the Second Coming. The only Great Tribulation I see in Revelation is the one John claims he is enduring (Rev. 1:9).

So, in my own words, it looks like this. Jesus returns with a great trumpet blast, the shout of the Archangel and the dead are raised. The heavens will flee from his presence and all mankind will fall on their knees at his presence. The wicked are "raptured" first by angels to be gathered together and burnt (Matt. 13:47; 24:36-43). Then the dead and the living in Christ will be "raptured" to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:17). Then the earth will be purged with fire (2 Peter 3:10). Then a new heavens and new earth will appear and the people of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, will descend back upon the new earth to live in the presence of the Lord forever (Rev. 21:1-2).

I think that your understanding is closer to the truth than the traditional pre-trib doctrine, but are you including the millenial reign of Christ in your summation of history? The scripture does discuss an earthly kingdom over which Christ will rule, with an enforced participation in one of the Old testament feasts; Those peoples who do not come will have their "rain" withheld. As this is found in the Old testament prophets, the fulfillment may be a spiritual one, but if it is, I have yet to see what that spiritual fulfillment would be. I am inclined to believe that God fulfills all His word in the physical world simply because of His faithfulness to His word, but that the physical realities are shadows of the spiritual truth(s). There appears to be more to the "end times" than we clearly understand, but I don't see where we're required to understand everything. That being said, I've been listening to quite a bit of teaching in the last week or so, by pre-trib proponents, and the event of a pre-trib rapture, by necessity, alters their understanding of all the events which follow and that is problematic.
I'm having some problems again with the on-line editor, so I hope no bizarre posts appear with my name on them. But I wanted to add one possibility to the things being discussed with regard to post tribulation events. We have this question about who will the church reign over (with Christ above all) during the millenium, if all christians have been raised up and glorified, and all the wicked have been consumed. The answer which presents itself to my mind, is the children who are alive at the time that these events occur. Will the Lord consume "innocents," or those lacking in understanding and knowledge, together with those who willfully reject Him? Not having any children of my own, might the Lord not entrust the care of some to me and/or my wife (although we won't be given in marriage at that time). That seems both fair and just in the light of God's promises. There is even some scripture that suggest that this were true, and I find the thought quite comforting. My wife would be more than content with caring for animals in God's kingdom, but I had the desire from my youth to just have a normal family life. God was nothing but Just in preventing my marriage from bearing a descendancy, given the sinful circumstances of my choices prior to my salvation, but in the grace that He's bestowed in granting me faith, wouldn't it be a faithful and yet gracious thing for Him to satisfy the desires of my heart? I've often thought that it was better that I had no children, because of the sinful ways I'd received from my own lineage, but when glorified in His image how could an orphaned family have a better "father?" Now, I might not even have such a desire when glorified, but there are "true treasures" promised to those that are faithful, and wouldn't this seem to be consistent with God's perfect character?

 

[Wormwood]

My personal view is that the milinnium is symbolic and the "rein" taking place is already established in Christ. Currently we are raised and seated above all principalities and powers in Christ. I think this reflects the entire picture of revelation where evil seems to be prevailing, but in reality, Christ is seated on the throne and those who follow him are sealed and "overcome" by faith in him. The early church believed in a literal millennium, but historic premillennialism resembles amillennialism more than dispensationalism premillennialism.

 

[michaelvpardo]

My personal view is that the milinnium is symbolic and the "rein" taking place is already established in Christ. Currently we are raised and seated above all principalities and powers in Christ. I think this reflects the entire picture of revelation where evil seems to be prevailing, but in reality, Christ is seated on the throne and those who follow him are sealed and "overcome" by faith in him. The early church believed in a literal millennium, but historic premillennialism resembles amillennialism more than dispensationalism premillennialism.

I beleive that I've heard this point of view before, but it leaves at least some of God's promises unfulfilled and that just doesn't fit the character of God. I beleive now that the Lord was giving me some real insight into His millenial kingdom as I was writing the last post. One of the questions people have about the millenial reign of Christ is "what's the purpose of it?" Most people that believe in it justify their belief by saying that some of God's promises remain unfulfilled and must be fulfilled, hence the purpose of the thousand year reign is explained, and rightly so, but the Lord showed me something else, something quite awesome.
In chapter 1 of the book of Hebrews we find the excellencies of Christ as compared to the angels and in verses 13 qnd 14 we find:
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

In 1st Corinthians, the Apostle tells us that we shall judge angels:
Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 1st Corinthians 6:3

In God's master plan to reveal His glory in the person of His Son, He first gave us angels to lead, to guide, to minister, to execute judgments, and to exercise dominion over this world until the arrival of the rightful heir, His own Son, even our Lord Jesus Christ. During the millenial kingdom, God restores dominion to man in the person of His Son, and to those whom He has chosen to be renewed in His image, to that of the fullness of the stature of Jesus Christ. At the end of the millenium Satan is released one more time and for what point? Again to demonstrate the excellencies of His Son and through those renewed in His image. The millenial reign will be a glorious reign and the ministry of the Son of God (and His body) will be demonstrated as far superior to that of the angels, and to whom? To those fallen ones who have been our accusers, denied God's word, and blasphemed His Spirit, as well as to the Holy angels to whom most of this remains a mystery. I'm struck with the awesomeness of his plan and amazed that he's given us a part in it.
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels,
And You have crowned him with glory and honor. Psalm 8:4-5
Now the on-line editor won't allow me to even correct "typos," but the post should be understandable as is.