If sealed with the HS, how does one become UNsealed ?

[GodsGrace]

Hey GG, relying on James, Hebrews, Matthew etc confirms your ignorance re how they do not have the unique Christ given authority as Paul does to teach how we are saved today.
....
Go ahead GG, mock these following verses
Who did Christ select as the Apostle & Minister to the Gentiles ?
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, ...
Rom 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles...
Rom 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God...
+++
The other Apostles agreed & knew who taught who
Gal 2:2
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,....
Gal 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
++++
What is the role of an Apostle/Minister ?
To teach THEIR audience.
BUT NOW there are NO SEPARATE audiences ALL are equal :-
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
++++
How are believers 'today' saved, sealed, justified, made righteous ?
By the SAVING Gospel that applies today.
Gal 1:11-12
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
++++
The PERFORMANCE conditions :-
Titus 3:
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
++++
Your 'deeds'/works/behavior/performance only decide your eternal rewards/loss
Rom 14:10
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
1 Cor 3:10-15
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

oh my.
Another PAUL TAUGHT A DIFFERENT GOSPEL advocate.

Where were you guys when Christianity started out!!

We had to wait 2 thousand years for you!!

or it's happening as YOUR HERO Paul taught:



1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


I do believe we're in the later times.
And some are falling away.
From the faith.
They pay attention of deceitful spirits.
And dcotrines of demons.

 

[GodsGrace]

So you claim you no longer sin ?

Maybe YOU are a sinner.

I'm a child of God.

1 John 3:1
1See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are.


And,,,where did I post that I do not sin?

This is the problem right here....
you don't seem to comprehend what is being said...

which would, of course, include the NT and what Jesus taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

How about you realize what passages in the NT are meant for us while other passages apply to a different audience

PeterAndoz

The ENTIRE NT is for YOU.

This is a new heresy at work.
And YOU believe it.

Perhaps you and some others could start your very own relligion?

Did you read 1 Corinthians 3:4-15 BTW?

I'll be you missed that part of the NT too.

Paul woulnd't be too happy with your idea of dividing HIS teaching and that Jesus.

 

[PeterAndroz]

oh my.
Another PAUL TAUGHT A DIFFERENT GOSPEL advocate.

Where were you guys when Christianity started out!!

We had to wait 2 thousand years for you!!

or it's happening as YOUR HERO Paul taught:



1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


I do believe we're in the later times.
And some are falling away.
From the faith.
They pay attention of deceitful spirits.
And dcotrines of demons.

Falling away by ACTIONS or by no longer believing the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel ?
......
As stated before, since FAITH is THE requirement to be saved,sealed,justified, then it makes sense that faith needs to be ongoing.
Since ACTIONS are NOT a requirement then list the verses that teach ACTIONS are :)
..
Titus 3:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 3:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 11:
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[GodsGrace]

Falling away by ACTIONS or by no longer believing the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel ?
......
As stated before, since FAITH is THE requirement to be saved,sealed,justified, then it makes sense that faith needs to be ongoing.
Since ACTIONS are NOT a requirement then list the verses that teach ACTIONS are :)
..
Titus 3:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 3:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 11:
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Did I not give you a long list of verses stating we are to do good works?
Please advise.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Did I not give you a long list of verses stating we are to do good works?
Please advise.

Yes, Paul teaches how a believer should lead their lives and what they do will determine rewards/loss at the JSOC yet regardless they remain saved since they are already Eph 4:30 SEALED
..
Your 'deeds'/works/behavior/performance only decide your eternal rewards/loss
Rom 14:10
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
1 Cor 3:10-15
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[GodsGrace]

Falling away by ACTIONS or by no longer believing the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel ?
......
As stated before, since FAITH is THE requirement to be saved,sealed,justified, then it makes sense that faith needs to be ongoing.
Since ACTIONS are NOT a requirement then list the verses that teach ACTIONS are :)
..
Titus 3:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 3:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 11:
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

First, a slight correction:

We are saved by BELIEVING.
Jesus said so in John 3:16

When we BELIEVE we get FAITH.

If we received FAITH FIRST,,,,
BEFORE BELIEVING....

we'd all be Calvinists.
Think about it.


And,,,you're not very good at reading, which is a real problem.
You missed my posts to you numbers 220, 221 and 222.

Three pages of works.
And there's MORE!

And,,,,they ARE about works.

YOUR verses, up above, don't prove your point at all.

But you like carpet bombing instead of focusing on a verse or two.

Here's a verse you can focus on:


John 15:1-2
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


° Jesus is the vine.
° God is the vine dresser/keeper.
° There are branches IN JESUS. These are born again believers.
° They do not bear fruit.
° God takes them away/cuts them off.
° God prunes those that DO bear fruit so they could produce even more.

Sounds like God is expecting us to produce fruit.
Or
He will cut us off.


(Does it count if Jesus taught this and not Paul??)

 

[PeterAndroz]

First, a slight correction:

We are saved be BELIEVING.
Jesus said so in John 3:16

When we BELIEVE we get FAITH.

If we received FAITH FIRST,,,,
BEFORE BELIEVING....

we'd all be Calvinists.
Think about it.


And,,,you're not very good at reading, which is a real problem.
You missed my posts to you numbers 220, 221 and 222.

Three pages of works.
And there's MORE!

And,,,,they ARE about works.

YOUR verses, up above, don't prove your point at all.

But you like carpet bombing instead of focusing on a verse or two.

Here's a verse you can focus on:


John 15:1-2
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


° Jesus is the vine.
° God is the vine dresser/keeper.
° There are branches IN JESUS. These are born again believers.
° They do not bear fruit.
° God takes them away/cuts them off.
° God prunes those that DO bear fruit so they could produce even more.

Sounds like God is expecting us to produce fruit.
Or
He will but us off.


(Does it count if Jesus taught this and not Paul??)

""""We are saved be BELIEVING.
Yes, that is clearly taught in the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30 Gospel taught to ONLY Paul by Christ - Gal 1:11-12

Good to see you slowly catching on :)

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, Paul teaches how a believer should lead their lives and what they do will determine rewards/loss at the JSOC yet regardless they remain saved since they are already Eph 4:30 SEALED
..
Your 'deeds'/works/behavior/performance only decide your eternal rewards/loss
Rom 14:10
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
1 Cor 3:10-15
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Oh.

So Jesus died so we could get some rewards.
This has always been an intersting concept to me.

I THOUGHT it was to teach us how to go to heaven.

Let's see what both Jesus and Paul have to say about this odd idea:


Paul ---- Your hero:

Romans 2:6-8
God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.



Here's Jesus....you like Him less, but He's the one that died for you, so I like to post Him too:



John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.



They seem to agree.
Must seem strange to you.

So. Take your pick.

It's not about rewards...
It's about SALVATION.

THIS is what the Christian religion teaches.

 

[GodsGrace]

""""We are saved be BELIEVING.
Yes, that is clearly taught in the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30 Gospel taught to ONLY Paul by Christ - Gal 1:11-12

Good to see you slowly catching on :)

Jesus forgot to teach the other Apostles?

John 3: 3,5
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Looks like Jesus was willing to teach ANYBODY that would listen !

 

[GodsGrace]

""""We are saved be BELIEVING.
Yes, that is clearly taught in the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30 Gospel taught to ONLY Paul by Christ - Gal 1:11-12

Good to see you slowly catching on :)

And I'm so happy that you will now correct your statement about faith.
I'll be looking out for you!

 

[ProDeo]

@GodsGrace , @mailmandan, @PeterAndroz

I know from experience it's pointless to interfere in a OSAS vs NOSAS discussion but here we go one more time

Order of things :

Grace = Jesus -> faith -> repentance -> saved (sealed) -> good works / fruits (Eph 2:10)

The absence of one of those 4 will put us in hell.

If the order of things is broken folks will end up in hell.

Meaning -

Without the grace of God and the obedience of the Son to die for the sins of the world all mankind would be lost. That is the meaning of the word grace we often use so easily. All our faith and good works / fruits will not save us. So when Paul says :

Efez 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. -> he means the work of Jesus

And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, -> of course it is not ours
Efez 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. -> exactly Paul, not our work, but of Christ!! we are saved/sealed!

But there is a condition :

Efez 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

If people don't produce good works, don't show fruits they will be cut off, plenty of Scripture passages spoken by Jesus about that.

Paul - I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. [2Tim 4:7]

Whoops, that does not sound very OSAS Paul.

Epilogue : I don't doubt any of you posting in this thread is not saved / is sealed and like Paul will finish the race. As an ex OSAS believer, there are definitely Scripture passages giving the impression of OSAS, but (and I won't judge) I changed my mind looking at the whole counsel. And there are exceptions mentioned in the Bible, people falling from Grace, not many fortunately.

 

[mailmandan]

Could you please....handsome please....find out what a heresy is?
Must I teach you everything?

Heresy signifies a teaching or belief that deviates from essential Christian doctrine which deprives one of salvation. The Bible associates' heresies with false prophets and false teachers. 2 Peter 2:1 - “Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. You falsely accused me of teaching heresy.

I NEVER said you teach a "license to sin".
That is NOT what a heresy is.

Jude 1:4 - For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. That's not heresy?

Sure.
Too bad those fallible men gave you a book referred to as The Bible.
Fact is....you can't find what I'm looking for.

So, it's those fallible men who gave us the Bible and not God? The Bible did not come from a single person or institution. In regard to what you are looking for, Augustine taught that a believer’s perseverance to the end is not dependent on personal works but is grounded in God’s unchangeable electing choice. Augustine argued that the grace of perseverance, the gift that keeps a person in Christ until the end is a gift from God, not something earned by human merit. He wrote that it is “inscrutable” why, among two pious men, one is given this grace and the other is not, and that this difference is most certain: the one who perseveres is among the predestined, the other is not. He linked this to Paul’s teaching in Romans that “the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Romans 11:29), meaning that those whom God has chosen will certainly persevere.

Prove, with historical documentation, that the early church taught OSAS.
DOESNT EXIST.

You have Augustine. I wonder what the Donatists, Novatians, Waldenses, the Lollards and the Hussites, who were bitterly persecuted by Catholics wrote. Their writings were probably turned to ash.

The only documentation that I will ever need is God's infallible Word. That is the final court of arbitration.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

2 Corinthians 1:21 - Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

Early church.
Only church writings.
gnostics believed in OSAS.

Were those early church writings infallible, inspired Scripture? Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only. Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plane of existence. On the matter of salvation, unlike mainstream Christianity, which emphasizes faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, Gnosticism teaches that salvation is gained through the acquisition of divine knowledge which frees one from the illusions of darkness. They don't even have how one is saved right so whatever version of OSAS that you claim they teach; it doesn't line up with what the Bible and I teach in regard to preservation of the saints/eternal security of the believer.

Are you really posting something some fallible man wrote?
But
I thought
you didnt like
fallible men.

I shared that article with you to show you that the Roman Catholic Church was not the only church before the reformation, along with some other very interesting information. When it comes to the final court of arbitration on "thus saith the Lord" I will turn to God's infallible Word and not the writings of the church fathers.

Who said you're a gnostic?
Is this how you also understand the Bible?
No.
Really.

Your implication is guilt by association. You said I taught heresy (which is a very serious accusation) and you say the Gnostics taught OSAS, yet they did not even get the gospel right, so whatever they taught, was a different version of OSAS. My belief is that once a person is saved, TRULY saved, they will remain saved and I prefer the terms "preservation of the saints" and "eternal security of the believer" over OSAS because of all the negative connotations that get attached to it by works-salvationists who strongly oppose OSAS.

And could you take the time to explain how 1 John 2:19 helps your cause.

In 25 words or less.

FOR IF THEY HAD BEEN OF US, THEY WOULD HAVE CONTINUED WITH US.

 

[mailmandan]

You better find out what Jesus taught.
Mailmandan is a bit off the rails.
Nice guy.

I'm a bit off the rails? LOL! At least I'm a nice guy though, right?

But when it comes to scripture.....
Yes.
Better find out what Jesus taught.

For isntance, this:

Matthew 7:24-27
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

Are you a wise man or a foolish man?
Let Jesus tell you.

Matthew 7:24-25 is descriptive of believers/genuine Christians.
Matthew 7:26-27 is descriptive of unbelievers/pseudo-Christians.

In context, Jesus starts out in verse 15 with - Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. Jesus makes a contrast between the saved and the lost:

Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Jesus points out that “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

These many people did not do the will of the Father unto salvation. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. These many people (who Jesus never knew) were trusting in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone, which sounds very familiar. Jesus then concludes in descriptive language the difference between two different foundations with two different outcomes and not salvation by works.

 

[mailmandan]

@GodsGrace , @mailmandan, @PeterAndroz

I know from experience it's pointless to interfere in a OSAS vs NOSAS discussion but here we go one more time

Order of things :

Grace = Jesus -> faith -> repentance -> saved (sealed) -> good works / fruits (Eph 2:10)

The absence of one of those 4 will put us in hell.

If the order of things is broken folks will end up in hell.

Meaning -

Without the grace of God and the obedience of the Son to die for the sins of the world all mankind would be lost. That is the meaning of the word grace we often use so easily. All our faith and good works / fruits will not save us. So when Paul says :

Efez 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. -> he means the work of Jesus

And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, -> of course it is not ours
Efez 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. -> exactly Paul, not our work, but of Christ!! we are saved/sealed!

But there is a condition :

Efez 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

If people don't produce good works, don't show fruits they will be cut off, plenty of Scripture passages spoken by Jesus about that.

Paul - I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. [2Tim 4:7]

Whoops, that does not sound very OSAS Paul.

Epilogue : I don't doubt any of you posting in this thread is not saved / is sealed and like Paul will finish the race. As an ex OSAS believer, there are definitely Scripture passages giving the impression of OSAS, but (and I won't judge) I changed my mind looking at the whole counsel. And there are exceptions mentioned in the Bible, people falling from Grace, not many fortunately.

I've heard certain people in the NOSAS camp liken security in Christ to someone walking down a road with two high walls on both sides of the road and say that the believer is secure but is still free to choose to climb over the wall to the other side and imply that only a small percentage of genuine born-again Christians would end up losing their salvation. Yet I've also heard extremists in the NOSAS camp liken security in Christ to someone walking on a tight rope in which suddenly we can slip off and perish and imply that many born again Christians will end up losing their salvation. I have even heard one NOSAS proponent say that continuing in the faith, abiding in Christ etc.. is an extremely difficult burden that most Christians will surely fail to do, and he even implied that around 90% of born-again Christians will end up losing their salvation.

That latter type seems to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome, even referring to ALL believers in the OSAS camp as heretics. They also seem to view themselves as "holier than thou" and are quick to judge. Now I believe you can find brothers and sisters in Christ in both camps, along with lost pseudo-Christians in both camps as well. OSAS only becomes heresy when you attach "a license to sin/license for immorality" to it, just like NOSAS only becomes heresy when you attach "salvation by works/works righteousness to it." I went from being NOSAS while a member of the Roman Catholic church (lived in fear and bondage to insecurity and was miserable!) to OSAS after I received Jesus Christ through faith. I'm glad to hear you are not in that latter type of NOSAS believers.

 

[Wrangler]

there are definitely Scripture passages giving the impression of OSAS, but (and I won't judge) I changed my mind looking at the whole counsel.

That’s how I see it also.

 

[GodsGrace]

Heresy signifies a teaching or belief that deviates from essential Christian doctrine which deprives one of salvation. The Bible associates' heresies with false prophets and false teachers. 2 Peter 2:1 - “Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. You falsely accused me of teaching heresy.

That's because you do teach heresy.
If you believe that doctrine saves MMD
then you better make darn sure that you have your doctrine right.

Jude 1:4 - For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. That's not heresy?

You sure are one confused dude.
Have you become a gnostic?

So, it's those fallible men who gave us the Bible and not God? The Bible did not come from a single person or institution. In regard to what you are looking for, Augustine taught that a believer’s perseverance to the end is not dependent on personal works but is grounded in God’s unchangeable electing choice. Augustine argued that the grace of perseverance, the gift that keeps a person in Christ until the end is a gift from God, not something earned by human merit. He wrote that it is “inscrutable” why, among two pious men, one is given this grace and the other is not, and that this difference is most certain: the one who perseveres is among the predestined, the other is not. He linked this to Paul’s teaching in Romans that “the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Romans 11:29), meaning that those whom God has chosen will certainly persevere.

Not engaging in your tiraid against the very church that saved the NT writings for you.

You have Augustine. I wonder what the Donatists, Novatians, Waldenses, the Lollards and the Hussites, who were bitterly persecuted by Catholics wrote. Their writings were probably turned to ash.

Oh my.
You think they belonged to the EARLY CHURCH?
No further comment.

The only documentation that I will ever need is God's infallible Word. That is the final court of arbitration.

Sure.
Because you cannot make your case.
OSAS WAS NEVER taught in the early church.

Unless you could prove othewise of course.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

The wicked could, maybe, be those that teach doctrine that will send some to hell.
Just sayin.

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

2 Corinthians 1:21 - Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

As you know,,,I'm tired of playing the verse game with you.

Your theology causes conflict in the NT.

This is due to your inability to properly interpret scripture.

Because you twwist it to mean what you THINK it means
or what you WANT it to mean

instead of taking it at face value.

Were those early church writings infallible, inspired Scripture? Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only. Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plane of existence. On the matter of salvation, unlike mainstream Christianity, which emphasizes faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, Gnosticism teaches that salvation is gained through the acquisition of divine knowledge which frees one from the illusions of darkness. They don't even have how one is saved right so whatever version of OSAS that you claim they teach; it doesn't line up with what the Bible and I teach in regard to preservation of the saints/eternal security of the believer.

Sounds kind of like what YOU believe.

I shared that article with you to show you that the Roman Catholic Church was not the only church before the reformation, along with some other very interesting information. When it comes to the final court of arbitration on "thus saith the Lord" I will turn to God's infallible Word and not the writings of the church fathers.

Which OTHER CHURCH existed in the earlty times MMD.
BEFORE the year 1,000AD

And why post articles by men that are fallible?
You haven't replied to this.

And your articles are junk.
Written to degrade the very church that gave you your bible.

Incredible.

Your implication is guilt by association. You said I taught heresy (which is a very serious accusation) and you say the Gnostics taught OSAS, yet they did not even get the gospel right, so whatever they taught, was a different version of OSAS. My belief is that once a person is saved, TRULY saved, they will remain saved and I prefer the terms "preservation of the saints" and "eternal security of the believer" over OSAS because of all the negative connotations that get attached to it by works-salvationists who strongly oppose OSAS.

FOR IF THEY HAD BEEN OF US, THEY WOULD HAVE CONTINUED WITH US.

What's the difference between SAVED
and
TRULY SAVED?

And your copy and paste is rather boring.
Are you incapable of a real conversation?

 

[GodsGrace]

I've heard certain people in the NOSAS camp liken security in Christ to someone walking down a road with two high walls on both sides of the road and say that the believer is secure but is still free to choose to climb over the wall to the other side and imply that only a small percentage of genuine born-again Christians would end up losing their salvation. Yet I've also heard extremists in the NOSAS camp liken security in Christ to someone walking on a tight rope in which suddenly we can slip off and perish and imply that many born again Christians will end up losing their salvation. I have even heard one NOSAS proponent say that continuing in the faith, abiding in Christ etc.. is an extremely difficult burden that most Christians will surely fail to do, and he even implied that around 90% of born-again Christians will end up losing their salvation.

That latter type seems to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome, even referring to ALL believers in the OSAS camp as heretics. They also seem to view themselves as "holier than thou" and are quick to judge. Now I believe you can find brothers and sisters in Christ in both camps, along with lost pseudo-Christians in both camps as well. OSAS only becomes heresy when you attach "a license to sin/license for immorality" to it, just like NOSAS only becomes heresy when you attach "salvation by works/works righteousness to it." I went from being NOSAS while a member of the Roman Catholic church (lived in fear and bondage to insecurity and was miserable!) to OSAS after I received Jesus Christ through faith. I'm glad to hear you are not in that latter type of NOSAS believers.

Why don't you stop listening to FALLIBLE MEN
and read the NT?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm a bit off the rails? LOL! At least I'm a nice guy though, right?

Yes- Always said this: You're a nice guy and most certainly are following Jesus...
but...
your theology is OFF THE RAILS.

What do you make of all those warnings in the NT?
All those IF's.

I guess they're PRESCRIPTIVE.

.

Matthew 7:24-25 is descriptive of believers/genuine Christians.
Matthew 7:26-27 is descriptive of unbelievers/pseudo-Christians.

Oh.
Descriptive.
Sorry.

GENUINE CHRISTIANS
PSEUDO CHRISTIANS

What other type of Christians are there?

In context, Jesus starts out in verse 15 with - Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. Jesus makes a contrast between the saved and the lost:

Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Jesus points out that “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

These many people did not do the will of the Father unto salvation. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. These many people (who Jesus never knew) were trusting in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone, which sounds very familiar. Jesus then concludes in descriptive language the difference between two different foundations with two different outcomes and not salvation by works.

Copy and pasted.
Not interested.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace , @mailmandan, @PeterAndroz

I know from experience it's pointless to interfere in a OSAS vs NOSAS discussion but here we go one more time

In an open thread...
anyone can join
at any time....

it is not considered interfering.
I'll bet you know this but were just enjoying the fun!

Order of things :

Grace = Jesus -> faith -> repentance -> saved (sealed) -> good works / fruits (Eph 2:10)

The absence of one of those 4 will put us in hell.

I'd have to agree.

But OSAS states that any one of those could be missing and a person will still be saved
IF
at one point in their life they believed ---

A member on a different forum said this:
A person could lose their faith and still be saved because God is faithful.

Many of us are not up to date on new teachings.
We could NOT HAVE FAITH....
but STILL BE SAVED.

And I thought we were saved by grace through faith.
the ever famous Eph 2:8

And, apparently, 1 Timothy 2:13 is causing a lot of misunderstanding too.

But no matter,,,,some make up theology as they go..
whatever the NT is trying to teach.

If the order of things is broken folks will end up in hell.

Meaning -

Without the grace of God and the obedience of the Son to die for the sins of the world all mankind would be lost. That is the meaning of the word grace we often use so easily. All our faith and good works / fruits will not save us. So when Paul says :

Efez 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. -> he means the work of Jesus

Yes sir.

And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, -> of course it is not ours
Efez 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. -> exactly Paul, not our work, but of Christ!! we are saved/sealed!

Yes sir.
Man does not manufacture faith...
God does.

But there is a condition :

Efez 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Oops!!

You overlooked the word SHOULD...
That we SHOULD walk in them (the good works)

see God doesn't give commands...
He makes suggestions!!

Yes sir.
You and I just do not understand this.

(No kidding...I've been told lthis.)

If people don't produce good works, don't show fruits they will be cut off, plenty of Scripture passages spoken by Jesus about that.

Paul - I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. [2Tim 4:7]

Whoops, that does not sound very OSAS Paul.

The brand new teaching now is that we could lose our faith but still be saved.

Christianity is becoming easier and easier to follow!
Anyone can be a member.
No rules.
Make them up as you go.

Epilogue : I don't doubt any of you posting in this thread is not saved / is sealed and like Paul will finish the race. As an ex OSAS believer, there are definitely Scripture passages giving the impression of OSAS, but (and I won't judge) I changed my mind looking at the whole counsel. And there are exceptions mentioned in the Bible, people falling from Grace, not many fortunately.

I am also a former OSAS adherent.
I also saw all the warnings in scripture.
I also saw all the IF's and conditions.

It seem like an intelligent undertaking would be to get all those verses harmonized instead of pitting them against each other...
which makes the NT a pretty useless book.

You should interfere more often...
although, in all honesy, I tire of this lately.