If the law was abolished at the cross...

[StanJ]

i agree with you on that stan, yet i believe few people understand it.

Yes I would agree and just as Jesus stated he is the narrow gate and few there are that enter in. That doesn't mean however that few Christians believe that it means that few in comparison to the world population believe that. Last time I looked at World figures on the Christian population, it was hovering somewhere around 2 billion, and I must admit based on my experience over my lifetime, a great many of those are probably not real Christians.

not sure i agree on that one as it would mean all other teachings of Jesus would go right out the window the minute He ascended to His Father. if all is accomplished, complete, then why is Jesus coming back, why are we even here?

Not at all, it just means that God's Plan of Salvation was accomplished. God has no further use for the old Covenant and Hebrews says it has become obsolete and has now disappeared. The New Covenant is established and shows us what we must do to attain eternal life. Jesus accomplished everything he was sent here to do.

 

[Tropical Islander]

Nobody here is talking about the old Covenant, except you. I agree of course that God deals with individuals, but not that the laws in the mind and on the heart are not meant collectively for the body of Christ. That's double talk, because they are the essence of the new covenenant. You cannot seperate the two, only in bad theology. If anybody has the laws not written on their heart that means they are not born again yet. And that's an awful lot these days, and of course they never repent of their sins all while they say grace, grace....what remains a theory for them until they really repent and accept Jesus and His the new covenant - was I a bit clearer now?

 

[StanJ]

Nobody here is talking about the old Covenant, except you. I agree of course that God deals with individuals, but not that the laws in the mind and on the heart are not meant collectively for the body of Christ. That's double talk, because they are the essence of the new covenenant. You cannot seperate the two, only in bad theology. If anybody has the laws not written on their heart that means they are not born again yet. And that's an awful lot these days, and of course they never repent of their sins all while they say grace, grace....what remains a theory for them until they really repent and accept Jesus and His the new covenant - was I a bit clearer now?

That's exactly what is being discussed, because when you talk about Old Testament written laws you're talking about the old Covenant. They are not meant collectively for the body of Christ because the body of Christ is a collective of individuals. Nobody gets saved because of what was given to the body of Christ. People get saved because of their individual confession to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Only God knows whether or not a person is really saved and whether or not a person has his laws written on their heart but regardless of that, having his laws written on their heart does not mean that they won't sin. 1 John 2:1

 

[jaybird]

For the life of me I will never understand why so many translate the phrase "written on our heart" to mean Jesus took the law of his Father and threw it in the garbage. A law that was written in stone. and its interesting how today we use the term "written in stone" to emphasize now and forever, we dont use it when talking about things that are temporary.

 

[Tropical Islander]

"why so many translate the phrase "written on our heart" to mean Jesus took the law of his Father and threw it in the garbage." --> it's reverse speech. First you symbolize something, then you rationalize it merging it with a pre-text someone gave you, then you can arrive at the reverse meaning of the original words. It's clever, but it's an occult trick. Kind of brainwashing.

 

[StanJ]

For the life of me I will never understand why so many translate the phrase "written on our heart" to mean Jesus took the law of his Father and threw it in the garbage. A law that was written in stone. and its interesting how today we use the term "written in stone" to emphasize now and forever, we dont use it when talking about things that are temporary.

It's because we are no longer under the letter of the law but the spirit of the law. God doesn't write the same thing on everybody's heart, it's based on what that person needs are required to walk with God. If it's a New Covenant then everything is new, right?

 

[brrrilliantsteve]

could u please explain this?? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

and i hope you dont believe in once saved always saved becasuse that is a big lie from the devil

Hi ScaliaFan, I think the explanation you are looking for is in the original post under the authors explanation of "how it went down", but probably the best way to make sense of it is to read it straight from the bible and the book I quoted.

I have tried giving my own simple explanation a few times but it keeps getting long and complicated so I delete it. I'll try one more time. Satan wants Gods position so he wants God dead, his law dead, and people "free" to worship him.

No I don't believe once saved always saved, not sure how you came to that thought.

 

[mjrhealth]

I guess it comes down to the question, can God save man or not?? For the non osas, i have yet to find anyone explain a way that God can, to teh OSAS well there is this.

1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Well I guess it says , it all, Non osas people seem to think teh whole thing is foolishness.

As for teh Law. well those in Christ are resting from their own works.


Heb_3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb_4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb_4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb_4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb_4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb_4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb_4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb_4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb_4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

As I keep repeating, so much unbelief.

 

[brrrilliantsteve]

But you see, that is how he twists it all around, because you have now forgone grace (which is the work of God) so that you can keep the law(which is all your work), or as teh bible puts it
...
Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hey that's a good quote, thanks I missed that one.
The original post was not talking about justification through the law.
Of course our salvation comes through our faith in Jesus being gracious enough to forgive our sin.
Grace does not negate the law, if there was no law there would be no need for grace or Jesus (which is what Satan wants).
The only way someone can personally gain justification through the law is to die, because that is the penalty for sin. But that person would be rejecting Christ's grace then making him of no effect to them.

Wherever Gods law of love is written a person committed to God will want to keep it. Satan wants to get rid of it or minimilise it so that anyone may break even the least of them.

Break here has these meanings...
to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together
*an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up
*laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds
*to annul, subvert
*to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act
*to declare unlawful
*to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy
*to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy
*metaph., to overthrow, to do away with

 

[brrrilliantsteve]

Stop and consider what the Ten Commandments are, and whether they could be "done away"...

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

These laws are the basic, fundamental laws that everything else is built on. Without them, there is nothing but chaos.

I would modify your last statement a little considering that Jesus said...
"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Mat 22:40
Referring to Love for God being the greatest Law and Love for your neighbor as yourself being the second. These would be the basic fundamental Laws on which the 10 commandments and any other principles of Love are built on. (While not negating Any of them).

 

[mjrhealth]

One tiny thing,

Christ came to fullfill the law, so when we are in Him the law through Him is fullfilled. That is why we dont have to worry over it, for our rest is in Him from all our own works.

Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[brrrilliantsteve]

Stan Stan Stan...

They have been. We no longer live under the law, we live under grace.

You can not justify what you have just said here with...
Mat 5:17-19
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
There has always been law, it has always been grace which saves us from the penalty of the law. Satan wants us to think the law was done away with. Because without the law there is no need for grace, and no need for Jesus and his sacrifice for us.

Then I guess you have to understand what Jesus meant by; "until everything has been accomplished".
IMO, that happened when Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to the Father.

Sorry but your opinion is wrong. As Mat (5:18) stated above "Till heaven and earth pass... Till all be fulfilled."
Christ still has a work to do interceding on our behalf before the father, till heavean and earth pass. Then all will be fulfilled.

God doesn't have a relationship with a nation anymore, that was under the Old Covenant with the nation of Israel. Under the New Covenant, God has a personal relationship with individuals through his son Jesus Christ, if those individuals confess Him as their savior.

If you read the new covenant you will find it is also with the nation of Israel and Judah, (jer 31:31, heb 8:8) not with individuals.

.
The New Covenant is established and shows us what we must do to attain eternal life.

Was this a lapse in concentration? Are you saying that the new covenant requires to do certain things to attain eternal life? That is works. I think you must have got confused for a minute.

God doesn't write the same thing on everybody's heart, it's based on what that person needs are required to walk with God. If it's a New Covenant then everything is new, right?

Stan this is clearly a doctrine of devils. I don't even need a bible verse for this. Gods law of love is immutable and for ever for everyone. God does not change and his law does not change. Everyone still needs the law of love for God to include having no other gods before him and the law of love for his neighbor to include do not murder.

Can you name even 1 of the 10 which should Not be included in the laws written on our hearts?

Ps. I do believe your heart is in the right place, just some of these things your teaching are a slippery slope.

 

[Tropical Islander]

I agree, that statement "God doesn't write the same thing on everybody's heart" clearly is a doctrine of devils and NOT New Testament teaching.

Paul, the apostel to the gentiles told us there are and remain absolutes in the New Covenant, valid for every believer:

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[StanJ]

You can not justify what you have just said here with...
Mat 5:17-19
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
There has always been law, it has always been grace which saves us from the penalty of the law. Satan wants us to think the law was done away with. Because without the law there is no need for grace, and no need for Jesus and his sacrifice for us.

Did you read my post? I did justify it.
Let's just be clear that we're talking about written law not law in general. God has had law since he first told Adam to not eat from the tree at the center of the garden. 'Till Heaven and Earth pass away' has the same impetus as 'all people'. It's a Hebrew saying from the day that needed to be understood in the Hebrew context. It was meant to show the dichotomy between one and the other. The Heaven and Earth will one day pass away but God's word never will. The point is the ending which has until all is accomplished, and that is exactly what Jesus did when he gave his life on the cross and rose again from the dead. The law requires nothing more than what Jesus did so in that vein all is accomplished under the law.

Sorry but your opinion is wrong. As Mat (5:18) stated above "Till heaven and earth pass... Till all be fulfilled."
Christ still has a work to do interceding on our behalf before the father, till heavean and earth pass. Then all will be fulfilled.

Actually if you were to use your rationale in this regard then when Jesus returns would be when all is accomplished, but as I've just shown you above, that is not the case.

If you read the new covenant you will find it is also with the nation of Israel and Judah, (jer 31:31, heb 8:8) not with individuals.

It's still with individuals as Paul clearly teaches in Romans 11. Plus the promise here is that all Israel will be saved as individuals not as a nation. Under the New Covenant there is no longer a difference between Jew and Gentile. In Exodus 19:4-6, God's covenant is with the people and nation of Israel collectively, not with individuals. Sorry if you cannot see the difference here but it's clearly depicted in scripture.

Was this a lapse in concentration? Are you saying that the new covenant requires to do certain things to attain eternal life? That is works. I think you must have got confused for a minute.

It was a simple statement and is understood by those who understand the New Testament. both Paul and Jesus said if we enjoy we will receive eternal life.
As far as your facetious comments are concerned, I suggest you stop while you're head. You'll find I don't suffer people like you quietly or kindly.

Stan this is clearly a doctrine of devils. I don't even need a bible verse for this. Gods law of love is immutable and for ever for everyone. God does not change and his law does not change. Everyone still needs the law of love for God to include having no other gods before him and the law of love for his neighbor to include do not murder.
Can you name even 1 of the 10 which should Not be included in the laws written on our hearts?

Given your OP, I'm not surprised that you would say this, but I caution you to not start accusing me of pushing doctrines of devils. You have no credibility to say this and then you refuse to give any support for your accusation? I said nothing about the law of love, which doesn't really exist because the Bible says God is love so I'm not quite sure again what you're referring to? Thoughts popping into your mind don't really count here.
Obviously you know the Ten Commandments, but more impotantly, do you know what God has written on your heart?

 

[StanJ]

I agree, that statement "God doesn't write the same thing on everybody's heart" clearly is a doctrine of devils and NOT New Testament teaching.
Paul, the apostel to the gentiles told us there are and remain absolutes in the New Covenant, valid for every believer:
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Devils don't have doctors but clearly you seem to identify more with Devils than you do with Paul's teaching? Point is Paul was assigned to be the Apostle to the Gentiles and to most of those that he taught they were either new believers are just hearing the message for the first time. Jesus gave teachers and apostles to the church and Paul was both. What exactly do you think an apostle and a teacher should do if not to teach? You are talking apples and oranges and I'm talking something else completely different. You might want to understand what it actually means to have God's law written on your heart?

 

[jaybird]

paul seems to suggest the law is very much valid

Romans 3:31(NIV)
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

 

[StanJ]

paul seems to suggest the law is very much valid
Romans 3:31(NIV)
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

It's always best to not cherry-pick verses but to read them in context. What Paul is referring to here in verse 31, is the law of faith, which you would have found in verse 27 had you read this in context.

 

[Barrd]

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Paul says quite plainly, that as many as have sinned, whether with or without the law, will perish.
By the way, you do know that the definition of "sin" would be to break the law, right?

And who is justified before God, according to Paul?
Looks like "the doers of the law"...

We blithely talk about being "conformed to the Spirit of Christ" and in the next breath, we talk about how He kept the law for our sakes....and yet, somehow, we still cannot connect the dots. How very sad....

 

[Barrd]

Again:


Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Looks a whole lot as if Paul is recommending that you yield yourself to be the servant of obedience unto righteousness, rather than to sin unto death.
I agree.

 

[Barrd]

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

We like that part, where He gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity...

It's that bit about Him wanting to purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works, that we have a problem with.

I wonder why?