If the law was abolished at the cross...

[jaybird]

It's always best to not cherry-pick verses but to read them in context. What Paul is referring to here in verse 31, is the law of faith, which you would have found in verse 27 had you read this in context.

i dont call it cherry picking i call it not ignoring scripture that shows the law is not abolished, or in pauls words nullified.

context is irrelevant, it would never change a yes to a no.

 

[Barrd]

Just about every Christian on this board can quote:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Most of 'em don't even have to crack open their Bible.

But how many can quote the very next verse, I wonder?

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[FHII]

Just about every Christian on this board can quote:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Most of 'em don't even have to crack open their Bible.

But how many can quote the very next verse, I wonder?

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I Barrd! I can! And i can make it coincide with the previous two verses! Want to hear it?

We are Christ's workmanship. We ARE the work. And we walk in that good work Christ did as he foreordained us to do.

The way people want to read those verses is that we are saved by grace; not of works but we still have to do works.

But that of course, is silly.

 

[Barrd]

I Barrd! I can! And i can make it coincide with the previous two verses! Want to hear it?

We are Christ's workmanship. We ARE the work. And we walk in that good work Christ did as he foreordained us to do.

The way people want to read those verses is that we are saved by grace; not of works but we still have to do works.

But that of course, is silly.

Nice effort...doesn't quite make it, though.

Tell ya what, ol' buddy...you show me yours, and I will show you mine:

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Does that sound silly to you? This is even sillier:

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Yes, and even Paul tells us:


Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

There is a very important fact that you are missing here (I mean besides the fact that it is a little difficult at times to get a straight answer from a Jewish lawyer), and that is:
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

You're a smart guy, even if you have been just a trifle brainwashed. I have confidence in you. You'll "get it", if you just apply yourself...

 

[StanJ]

By the way, you do know that the definition of "sin" would be to break the law, right?

No I don't agree with that. Paul said whatever does not come from faith is sin. That is the New Covenant. Paul makes a distinction between the old Covenant and the New Covenant. Hebrews says the old Covenant is obsolete.

 

[StanJ]

i dont call it cherry picking i call it not ignoring scripture that shows the law is not abolished, or in pauls words nullified.
context is irrelevant, it would never change a yes to a no.

So then you didn't read v27?

 

[StanJ]

Just about every Christian on this board can quote:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Most of 'em don't even have to crack open their Bible.

But how many can quote the very next verse, I wonder?

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Yep, so did you have a point about v10?

 

[StanJ]

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

We like that part, where He gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity...

It's that bit about Him wanting to purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works, that we have a problem with.

I wonder why?

not much different than when Peter says God is not willing that any should perish but that all should have eternal life. Both don't actually express a reality that will happen, they express the condition of God's heart if you will.

 

[FHII]

Nice effort...doesn't quite make it, though.

Tell ya what, ol' buddy...you show me yours, and I will show you mine:

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Does that sound silly to you? This is even sillier:

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Yes, and even Paul tells us:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

There is a very important fact that you are missing here (I mean besides the fact that it is a little difficult at times to get a straight answer from a Jewish lawyer), and that is:
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

You're a smart guy, even if you have been just a trifle brainwashed. I have confidence in you. You'll "get it", if you just apply yourself...

Wow, you certainly left Eph 2:8-10 quickly.

Concerning Rom 2:13: you probably hate when people tell you this; but you must read in proper context.

Paul was making a point which lasted from verse 1 all the way to Rom 3:18 or 19.

The point was that Jews were trying to judge gentiles by the law and bring them under the bondage of the law. He states that when they do that and don't keep the law themselves they are hypocrites and will be under God's judgement.

So the point is that IF you are going to live under the law, you better keep it, especially if you preach it to others. Now in 3:20 -21 he makes his final diagnosis to this whole problem. That is, no flesh shall be justified by the law AND That the righteousness of God is without the law.

Now who was Paul speaking of in chapters 2 and 3? JAMES! Or at least people like James who were trying to keep people -even gentiles - under the law!

James first off was talking to Jewish Christians whom he never freed from the law at the council of Jerusalem. Second of all, he wasn't trying to justify his faith to God. He was trying to justify himself in the eyes of men (he said so himself! Check it out for yourself!)

So faith without works is NOT dead in the eyes of God. Men (and appearently women) need to see works.

As for the Jewish lawyer comment.... I am not one to appreciate stereotypes about Jews. But you should see that Paul wrote and spake with great plainness of speach. Furthetaore, he was multilingual and could talk to the rich, the poor, other Jews, Greeks and gentiles and even to barbarians. I dare say, he was the easiest to understand of all the men who wrote the Books of the Bible.

As for me being brainwashed... Absolutely! My mind has been clensed by the washing of water by the word!

Who washed your brain?

Ok, that was fun! Where in the bible do you want to run to next?

 

[Barrd]

Wow, you certainly left Eph 2:8-10 quickly.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now, if I stop right there, it looks a whole lot as if Christ doesn't expect anything from me, doesn't it? Although I know that He did say that, if I love Him I will obey His commandments, and many other such things.
But if I continue...

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I see that I was created unto good works which God has ordained that I should walk in them.


Concerning Rom 2:13: you probably hate when people tell you this; but you must read in proper context.

Actually, I'm not overly fond of self-righteous stuffed shirts assuming that I've not read the entire text.

Paul was making a point which lasted from verse 1 all the way to Rom 3:18 or 19.

Don't stop there. Keep going all the way to the end of the chapter.

The point was that Jews were trying to judge gentiles by the law and bring them under the bondage of the law. He states that when they do that and don't keep the law themselves they are hypocrites and will be under God's judgement.

There is a bit more to it than that.

So the point is that IF you are going to live under the law, you better keep it, especially if you preach it to others. Now in 3:20 -21 he makes his final diagnosis to this whole problem. That is, no flesh shall be justified by the law AND That the righteousness of God is without the law.

You really need to read on down to the bottom of the page.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We do not make the law void through our faith...in fact, we establish the law! Again, I think we need to actually read those Ten Words over...before we go and toss Grandma's precious silver out along with the dishwater. Just as a "for instance"...is the first Commandment now void? May I, then, worship other gods besides the Christian God?
Go on down through all ten of them, and tell me...which one of them may we throw out?

Now who was Paul speaking of in chapters 2 and 3? JAMES! Or at least people like James who were trying to keep people -even gentiles - under the law!
James first off was talking to Jewish Christians whom he never freed from the law at the council of Jerusalem. Second of all, he wasn't trying to justify his faith to God. He was trying to justify himself in the eyes of men (he said so himself! Check it out for yourself!)

Whoa, are you now telling me that I should cut James from my Bible? I thought "all scripture is given", blah blah blah. This is cherry-picking at it's finest!

So faith without works is NOT dead in the eyes of God. Men (and appearently women) need to see works.

Let's see....should I believe you? Or should I believe James.
You? Or my Bible.
Hmmm....

Sorry, dude. You lose. I will believe James.

As for the Jewish lawyer comment.... I am not one to appreciate stereotypes about Jews. But you should see that Paul wrote and spake with great plainness of speach. Furthetaore, he was multilingual and could talk to the rich, the poor, other Jews, Greeks and gentiles and even to barbarians. I dare say, he was the easiest to understand of all the men who wrote the Books of the Bible.

One hopes he had more of a sense of humor than you have. But probably not...

As for me being brainwashed... Absolutely! My mind has been clensed by the washing of water by the word!

I hate to break it to you...but you have left out the actual cleansing agent...

Who washed your brain?

Mine? My mind has been opened by the Lord, Jesus Christ. I know He isn't as popular as Paul...but I love Him.
I guess that makes me a bit weird...but, you know...i don't mind a bit.

Ok, that was fun! Where in the bible do you want to run to next?

It's funny, how people will talk about how their spirit is being conformed to the Spirit of Christ....and they'll talk about how Jesus Christ kept the law for our sakes (which He did, of course).

But, somehow, they cannot connect the dots....

 

[mjrhealth]

But, somehow, they cannot connect the dots....

Yes some need paint by numbers because the dots confuse them.

Now who is it we are married to?? the Law as what the Jews where,( notice WHERE) or Christ as we are His church??

Rom_7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

So again who is it you choose, teh Law or Christ, to whom will you be wed.

 

[Barrd]

Yes some need paint by numbers because the dots confuse them.

Now who is it we are married to?? the Law as what the Jews where,( notice WHERE) or Christ as we are His church??

Rom_7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

So again who is it you choose, teh Law or Christ, to whom will you be wed.

My Bridegroom is He that said:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
....
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
...
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

I am familiar with His voice, and I follow Him.
You, I do not know, nor will I follow you.

 

[FHII]

Wow, you certainly left Eph 2:8-10 quickly.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now, if I stop right there, it looks a whole lot as if Christ doesn't expect anything from me, doesn't it? Although I know that He did say that, if I love Him I will obey His commandments, and many other such things.
But if I continue...
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I see that I was created unto good works which God has ordained that I should walk in them.

That's right.... We were created by Christ in Christ unto his good works. Not ours.

Actually, I'm not overly fond of self-righteous stuffed shirts assuming that I've not read the entire text.

I didn't say you didn't read the entire text. I said you have to read it in context. And I'm not self righteous.... Looking at these verses, the self righteous ones were those that follow the law. That ain't me... That's you!

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We do not make the law void through our faith...in fact, we establish the law! Again, I think we need to actually read those Ten Words over...before we go and toss Grandma's precious silver out along with the dishwater. Just as a "for instance"...is the first Commandment now void? May I, then, worship other gods besides the Christian God?
Go on down through all ten of them, and tell me...which one of them may we throw out?

Well, you did it again! This time you skipped the entire 2 chapters we are talking about just to take the last verse of Romans 3 out of context. One of the verses you skipped was:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

You missed several others... But your conclusions are again taken out of context. Actually, the proper context is that we establish the Law THROUGH faith.

Whoa, are you now telling me that I should cut James from my Bible? I thought "all scripture is given", blah blah blah. This is cherry-picking at it's finest!

Nope.... I never said you should cut James out of the Bible. I know that would be something you do as you do not believe all scripture is inspired.... But I never said that. Furthermore, it is not cherry picking, as you should have picked up on I note you have to look at Acts 15, 21 and Galatians. CHerry picking is looking at Romans 2:13 without the rest of the CHapter or looking at Romans 3:31 without looking at the rest of the chapter.

 

[Barrd]

That's right.... We were created by Christ in Christ unto his good works. Not ours.

I think that's what I am saying. We are to walk in the path He laid out for us. Careful...it's narrow, and can be a bit tricky in places...and you have to learn to ignore the mocking you will hear from those on the broad and well-traveled path.
Following Jesus isn't always easy....but it is always worth it!

I didn't say you didn't read the entire text. I said you have to read it in context. And I'm not self righteous.... Looking at these verses, the self righteous ones were those that follow the law. That ain't me... That's you!

Of course.
Let me see if I have this straight.
God steps down from His throne, lays His crown to the side, and comes slumming on this filthy ball of rock. He walks and talks with the creatures He created from the dust of the ground, healing their diseases and trying to teach them how to live a happy, productive life, and in our gratitude, we beat Him, scourge Him with a cruel whip, flaying Him to the bone, and end by driving spikes through His flesh, ripping through muscle, shredding veins and tendons, shattering bone...and why? Because we cannot obey a handful of simple rules.

Is this enough to suggest to us that, perhaps ignoring this handful of simple rules is maybe not such a great idea?
NO...of course not. We are going to interpret this incredible love for us as a license to sin.

And because I object to seeing my Lord's sacrifice abused in such a callous fashion, I am labeled as "self-righteous."
Oh, Lord, you were right. They didn't love You...and they are none to fond of those who love You, even to this day...

Well, you did it again! This time you skipped the entire 2 chapters we are talking about just to take the last verse of Romans 3 out of context. One of the verses you skipped was:
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
You missed several others... But your conclusions are again taken out of context. Actually, the proper context is that we establish the Law THROUGH faith.

I'm not going to try to post three whole chapters at a time, fapeetsakes.
My conclusion is taken directly from the context, and it agrees with everything Jesus did and taught while He was here.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Nope.... I never said you should cut James out of the Bible. I know that would be something you do as you do not believe all scripture is inspired.... But I never said that. Furthermore, it is not cherry picking, as you should have picked up on I note you have to look at Acts 15, 21 and Galatians. CHerry picking is looking at Romans 2:13 without the rest of the CHapter or looking at Romans 3:31 without looking at the rest of the chapter.

If all scripture is inspired, then so is James inspired. No matter how you tapdance around it, faith without works is dead.
Just as surely as a body without a heartbeat...

 

[jaybird]

So then you didn't read v27?

i get what ur saying. paul says at one point we are justified by our faith apart from the works of the law. but then just a few lines down he says this does not nullify the law. i dont think you can pick one and ignore the other. IMO paul is saying that through faith we can uphold the law. something to that effect.
paul can be a bit hard to read. i think this is just one of several misunderstood paul sayings.
Jesus on the other hand is much easier to understand, for me anyway. and Jesus spoke many times on the importance of the law.

 

[StanJ]

i get what ur saying. paul says at one point we are justified by our faith apart from the works of the law. but then just a few lines down he says this does not nullify the law. i dont think you can pick one and ignore the other. IMO paul is saying that through faith we can uphold the law. something to that effect.
paul can be a bit hard to read. i think this is just one of several misunderstood paul sayings.
Jesus on the other hand is much easier to understand, for me anyway. and Jesus spoke many times on the importance of the law.

No, because the laws still in effect for those that are under the law and not under grace. It can't be nullified but at that time it was close to disappearing as per Hebrews and in fact it did disappear in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed and the levitical priesthood was disbanded. Today that law is nullified despite the fact that Orthodox Jews follow it. Peter made that clear and Acts 4:12.
I agree with you that you can't take one verse and ignore it for the sake of another and my point has always been that if verses seem to disagree it is because we don't understand them not that they contradict one another. Throughout everything that Paul writes in Romans, it is clear that the law is not what we as Christians live by but it is clear that Paul understood it very well and communicated to those who were trying to bring the law into Christianity that it did not apply. You also have to understand what Jesus' mission was in order to understand what he said and why. If you accept Matthew 15:24 as literal then you have to accept that the Gentiles we're not to be saved. However it is clear given everything that we see in the New Testament that Jesus did call Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentiles and to spread that news. Even Jesus himself knew he had to start with the children of Israel and that others would bring his mission to all the nations. This is why I say you have to take everything and let the totality of the New Testament interpret it.

 

[FHII]

I think that's what I am saying. We are to walk in the path He laid out for us. Careful...it's narrow, and can be a bit tricky in places...and you have to learn to ignore the mocking you will hear from those on the broad and well-traveled path.
Following Jesus isn't always easy....but it is always worth it!

Of course.
Let me see if I have this straight.
God steps down from His throne, lays His crown to the side, and comes slumming on this filthy ball of rock. He walks and talks with the creatures He created from the dust of the ground, healing their diseases and trying to teach them how to live a happy, productive life, and in our gratitude, we beat Him, scourge Him with a cruel whip, flaying Him to the bone, and end by driving spikes through His flesh, ripping through muscle, shredding veins and tendons, shattering bone...and why? Because we cannot obey a handful of simple rules.

Is this enough to suggest to us that, perhaps ignoring this handful of simple rules is maybe not such a great idea?
NO...of course not. We are going to interpret this incredible love for us as a license to sin.

And because I object to seeing my Lord's sacrifice abused in such a callous fashion, I am labeled as "self-righteous."
Oh, Lord, you were right. They didn't love You...and they are none to fond of those who love You, even to this day...
I'm not going to try to post three whole chapters at a time, fapeetsakes.
My conclusion is taken directly from the context, and it agrees with everything Jesus did and taught while He was here.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


If all scripture is inspired, then so is James inspired. No matter how you tapdance around it, faith without works is dead.
Just as surely as a body without a heartbeat...

1. "A handful of simple rules".... Well there's a big understatement since no one has ever kept them! This Romans 3 says it clearly as does John. And remember the words of Jesus when he said, "therefore he that breaks the least of these laws and shall teach men to do so, the same shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven".

And even James said something similar.

2.are you offended because i called you srlf righteous? Have you read YOUR posts to me? Remember the words of Jesus: "thou hypocrit! First cast out the beam in your eye; then thou shalt see clearly to cast the moat out of your brother's eye".

Read the chapters Barrd! Paul was clearly indicating fault in the form of hypocracy and self righteousness to them that were pushing the law. And he didn't accuse them of wearing a stiff white shirt or being brainwashed either (to which i am grateful for my brain washing).

3. I'm not asking you to post 2 whole chapters. Lord have mercy on my sanity if you did! I'm asking you to consider them as part of your thinking when you isolate one single verse like Rom 3:31.

4. Speaking of which... I don't know how i missed it, but that verse alone counters you belief in works!

"Do we make the law through FAITH? God forbid, yea we establish the law."

How? Through works? No, he's still on the subject of faith. This verse is saying we establish the law by faith. Please show me where it says we establish the law through works. Can't be done.

5. Only in the eyes of men is faith without works is dead. James himsrlf pointed that out when he said he would show is faith TO MEN by his works and Romans 4:2 plainly confirms it.

 

[Barrd]

1. "A handful of simple rules".... Well there's a big understatement since no one has ever kept them! This Romans 3 says it clearly as does John. And remember the words of Jesus when he said, "therefore he that breaks the least of these laws and shall teach men to do so, the same shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven".

And even James said something similar.

He that breaks the least of these laws and shall teach men to do so, the same shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
That's quite a mouthful, isn't it?
Once again, take a look at the Ten Commandments. I could post them again, I suppose, if you need me to do that.
Anyhow, please tell me which of these commandments it would be okay for us to ignore.
I could probably predict your choice, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

2.are you offended because i called you srlf righteous? Have you read YOUR posts to me? Remember the words of Jesus: "thou hypocrit! First cast out the beam in your eye; then thou shalt see clearly to cast the moat out of your brother's eye".

Did you ever notice that everyone who posts this verse sees him/herself as the party with the moat, while it is the other guy who is walking around with the beam in his eye?

Read the chapters Barrd! Paul was clearly indicating fault in the form of hypocracy and self righteousness to them that were pushing the law. And he didn't accuse them of wearing a stiff white shirt or being brainwashed either (to which i am grateful for my brain washing).

That was stuffed shirt, not stiff...and who said it was white?

What did Paul really mean when he said this:

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Or this:


Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

3. I'm not asking you to post 2 whole chapters. Lord have mercy on my sanity if you did! I'm asking you to consider them as part of your thinking when you isolate one single verse like Rom 3:31.

Don't be so sure that I haven't done so.
The conclusion is the conclusion...

4. Speaking of which... I don't know how i missed it, but that verse alone counters you belief in works!

"Do we make the law through FAITH? God forbid, yea we establish the law."

How? Through works? No, he's still on the subject of faith. This verse is saying we establish the law by faith. Please show me where it says we establish the law through works. Can't be done.

First of all, where did you get the notion that I have a belief in works?
We establish the law through our faith in the One Who gave us the law. We strive to obey Him because we love Him. We are servants to the One to Whom we give ourselves to obey, whether we obey sin unto death...or whether we obey Jesus unto eternal life.
Remember, neither Paul, nor James, nor Matthew can give you eternal life. Only Jesus can do that. That being so, it might be a good idea to spend a bit more time in the red writing...and a little less trying to make sense out of Paul's conflicting statements.

5. Only in the eyes of men is faith without works is dead. James himsrlf pointed that out when he said he would show is faith TO MEN by his works and Romans 4:2 plainly confirms it.

Did Abraham show his faith by his works?
What about Moses?
Or Samuel?
Or Elijah?
Or David?

I could go on...but I think you get the point...

 

[mjrhealth]

I am familiar with His voice, and I follow Him.
You, I do not know, nor will I follow you.

Never asked you to,

Do you not read what I say,
.
1. Who believes god, show me one,
2. Why dont people take things to Christ
3. Ask God He has all teh anwers.

So I guess Jesus is haveing a hard time getting your head around this. Is ok can take years. You know this bit

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

or

Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

When we ask God we must ask knowing we know nothing, as soon as we declare we know it all, than He has no plcae to work, for we have alreday determined the outcome without giving Him a chance.

You really should go read wormwoods post in one of teh other topics if you havnt already done so.

 

[FHII]

He that breaks the least of these laws and shall teach men to do so, the same shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
That's quite a mouthful, isn't it?
Once again, take a look at the Ten Commandments. I could post them again, I suppose, if you need me to do that.

Yea... Umm... No, it's not a mouthful. And second there were a lot more then ten. There were actually 613. And if you keep one you have to keep them all.

Did you ever notice that everyone who posts this verse sees him/herself as the party with the moat, while it is the other guy who is walking around with the beam in his eye?

No, but I notice the guilty party never believes its them even after you give scriptural proof.

That was stuffed shirt, not stiff...and who said it was white?

What did Paul really mean when he said this:

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Or this:


Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Oh jee. A thousand pardons. <_<

AND HERE WE GO AGAIN TO ANOTHER SET OF SCRIPTURE!!! No need to stick around and discuss anything.... RUN! RUN! RUN!!! (I can't wait till we go full circle and end up back at Eph 2:8-10)


But... You know.... Romans 6:15 has been talked about and explained so many times by so many people.... No need for me to do it again.


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FHII: 3. I'm not asking you to post 2 whole chapters. Lord have mercy on my sanity if you did! I'm asking you to consider them as part of your thinking when you isolate one single verse like Rom 3:31.

Don't be so sure that I haven't done so.
The conclusion is the conclusion...

I'm pretty sure you haven't. Otherwise, you wouldn't be taking them so badly out of context.

First of all, where did you get the notion that I have a belief in works?

I get it from the things you say! What do you mean where did I get the notion?!?!? You challenged Eph 2:8, you keep quoting Jas 2:17 and every other opportunity you get you throw off on the idea that faith needs works. I mean... DUH!!!!

That being so, it might be a good idea to spend a bit more time in the red writing...and a little less trying to make sense out of Paul's conflicting statements.

First off, they only conflict with your works philosophy. Number two: I quoted Jesus twice in my last post which is two more times than you have done in your previous two posts!

Did Abraham show his faith by his works?

If you would look at Romans 2:4, you would see what I'm talking about. If he were justified by works, it wouldn't be seen as glory to God.