If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?

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Ronald Nolette

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Nope, the 144k ended in verse 8, the great crowd was the other sheep not of that fold sir.

And they are 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel, not some special spiritual class as created by the Watchtower.

The bible says on ething, but the Watchtower boldly and arrogantly says: " We know what the bible says, but this is what it means."
 

Ronald Nolette

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That is very true, in the future they will become one flock under one shepherd as Jesus prophesied.

And true believers are already one flock. Jew and Gentile are now one body in christ! Not two as they were in OT times. Just like the bible says!

Once again the bible says Jews and Gentiles will be one fold- but the Watchtower in its arrogance declares: We know what the bible sayus. but we are sayi9ng what it means." Like God needs an editor Or that a person seeking to follow God is too stupid to receive from the Holy Spirit.
 

Robert Gwin

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Hello Robert,
"No Jesus is not equal to Jehovah, but he is the closest that will ever be. Are you aware that sitting at the Fathers right hand signifies position maam? 1 Cor 11:3"


in Isaiah 43:10-11 (NWT), “Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.” And Isa: 44:6 (NWT) says: “I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”

So, Jesus is just another of a ton of other mighty"god's" small "g". Is Jesus a false G"god" or is Jehova a false "god"? No. So in reality you are worshipping two "gods"...mighty gods! And before you talk about Capital "G" Gods, the Hebrew has no caps, NWT boo boo.

Jesus positioning at The Fathers right hand, you say is just a title, position thing. In that case there are many "true" Gods and not just one.
John 17:3 (NWT) says “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”
If that’s true, how could you say that Jesus is a true God?

How many god's are true and how many are false?

In answer to your question maam, there are two real Gods. The Bible teaches there are many gods and many lords, however in the grand scheme of things you will be found in judgment to have served either Jehovah or satan. If you worship or give allegiance to any other god no matter what you call it other than Jehovah you will be judged as siding with satan on the issue. If you disagree, do you have any Scriptural evidence to support your view?
 

Robert Gwin

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I"m NOT interested in scripture dueling you Robert. I stated that quite clearly. No means no.

I acknowledge and celebrate your individual faith, and I hope to see you in the hereafter even through the theological difference. I have zero interest in joining the abusive wolf that is the Watchtower organization. Nor am I going to force you to see that fact-- I acknowledge your autonomy. And I demand that you acknowledge mine.

Your options here are:
1) Acknowledge and celebrate my faith -- as a person whom will never join the Watchtower.
2) End of conversation. If that means you mourn my death because I reject the WatchTower then go go ahead and have a funeral.

No problem, Jehovah forces no one to serve Him maam.
 

Robert Gwin

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No..."the time of his presence" started when He said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Which began "quickly" after His going to the Father, just as He said it would, during the times of the gentiles. Of which He said, "I must also bring." This is the chronology according to His own revealing, as apposed to what may be interpreted of prophecy as calculated by men.

As for "no king sitting on the throne of God"...Jesus received His throne and became the King of Kings, when and as He said, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

As for the "seven times"-- I tell you, as did He, saying, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." which "He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John" that which "must shortly take place" during His generation.

What convinced me Scott, the brothers put in print in 1879 that 1914 would end the gentile times, and then the biggest fulfillment of the signs Jesus gave, WW#1, definitely the fulfillment of Mat 24:6,7. Had that not have happened I might be open to discussion on it, but no disputing evidence sir.
 

Robert Gwin

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And they are 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel, not some special spiritual class as created by the Watchtower.

The bible says on ething, but the Watchtower boldly and arrogantly says: " We know what the bible says, but this is what it means."

Yes sir, the Israel of God, from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues Gal 6:16; Rev 5:9,10 Believe it or not.
 

Robert Gwin

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And true believers are already one flock. Jew and Gentile are now one body in christ! Not two as they were in OT times. Just like the bible says!

Once again the bible says Jews and Gentiles will be one fold- but the Watchtower in its arrogance declares: We know what the bible sayus. but we are sayi9ng what it means." Like God needs an editor Or that a person seeking to follow God is too stupid to receive from the Holy Spirit.

They will be one flock under one shepherd after Jesus hands the Kingdom back to his God sir. As Paul Harvey would say the rest of the story: (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) . . .the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, . . .when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

When God is all things to everyone that is when we are the one flock under one Shepherd sir.
 

Nancy

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In answer to your question maam, there are two real Gods. The Bible teaches there are many gods and many lords, however in the grand scheme of things you will be found in judgment to have served either Jehovah or satan. If you worship or give allegiance to any other god no matter what you call it other than Jehovah you will be judged as siding with satan on the issue. If you disagree, do you have any Scriptural evidence to support your view?
Two "real" Gods huh. Does this mean you think Satan is a real God?? The TRUE and ONLY God has no rivals and nobody equals Him in any way so right off the bat you've lost me.
As far as the bible stating there are many gods yes, true...and Lords and masters as well but zero Gods but the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...the others are ALL false.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Yes sir, the Israel of God, from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues Gal 6:16; Rev 5:9,10 Believe it or not.

Yes from all nations- as long as they are ethnically from one of the twelve physical tribes, we can agree. Otherwise, it is just me and the bible in agreement.
 

Ronald Nolette

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They will be one flock under one shepherd after Jesus hands the Kingdom back to his God sir. As Paul Harvey would say the rest of the story: (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) . . .the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, . . .when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

When God is all things to everyone that is when we are the one flock under one Shepherd sir.

That is not what teh Bible says! Paul said jew and gentile are one flock--now! Once again you must choosde to believe teh simple, clear and unambiguous Inspired Word of God, or the reinterpretations of a man made institution
 

ScottA

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What convinced me Scott, the brothers put in print in 1879 that 1914 would end the gentile times, and then the biggest fulfillment of the signs Jesus gave, WW#1, definitely the fulfillment of Mat 24:6,7. Had that not have happened I might be open to discussion on it, but no disputing evidence sir.
The problem with that is that Jesus was referring to "this [that] generation", as He continued on in verse 9 to say, "Then they will deliver [you] up to tribulation..." speaking to His disciples living at that time who would first see those signs and "then" they would be delivered up.
 

Robert Gwin

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Two "real" Gods huh. Does this mean you think Satan is a real God?? The TRUE and ONLY God has no rivals and nobody equals Him in any way so right off the bat you've lost me.
As far as the bible stating there are many gods yes, true...and Lords and masters as well but zero Gods but the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...the others are ALL false.

Yes maam, satan is the god of this world, and believe me he is a very powerful god, 1/3 of the angels chose to follow him in his rebellion, and when he is finally cast into the lake of fire with those angels, a vast quantity of humans will follow him as well, the Bible innumerably numbers them as the grains of the sand of the sea. Rev 20:8
 

Nancy

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Yes maam, satan is the god of this world, and believe me he is a very powerful god, 1/3 of the angels chose to follow him in his rebellion, and when he is finally cast into the lake of fire with those angels, a vast quantity of humans will follow him as well, the Bible innumerably numbers them as the grains of the sand of the sea. Rev 20:8
Satan is no "true" god....only one, remember? We gave Satan the keys to the earthly kingdom in the garden but, Jesus, through His death, gained them back and will rip them from the talons of the evil one one day.
 

Robert Gwin

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Yes from all nations- as long as they are ethnically from one of the twelve physical tribes, we can agree. Otherwise, it is just me and the bible in agreement.

No need for further discussion on this Ron, the 144k is a Biblical fact, and they are humans that have been selected to rule with Christ, if you disagree fine, but that is my teaching and opinion sir.
 

Robert Gwin

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That is not what teh Bible says! Paul said jew and gentile are one flock--now! Once again you must choosde to believe teh simple, clear and unambiguous Inspired Word of God, or the reinterpretations of a man made institution

I say it is future, you say it is now, any evidence to show the unity now? I don't see it.
 

Robert Gwin

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That is not what teh Bible says! Paul said jew and gentile are one flock--now! Once again you must choosde to believe teh simple, clear and unambiguous Inspired Word of God, or the reinterpretations of a man made institution
Two threads same topic
 

Robert Gwin

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The problem with that is that Jesus was referring to "this [that] generation", as He continued on in verse 9 to say, "Then they will deliver [you] up to tribulation..." speaking to His disciples living at that time who would first see those signs and "then" they would be delivered up.

Yes sir, the end of this system will not exceed the generation of 1914, it will appear late Mat 24:48 but it will be right on time before the expiration of that generation.
 

ScottA

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Yes sir, the end of this system will not exceed the generation of 1914, it will appear late Mat 24:48 but it will be right on time before the expiration of that generation.
Well...that is an obvious disregard for the fact that Jesus was speaking to those of [that] generation, specifically referring to them as "you", and obviously not at all the proper definition of a generation.

As for Mat 24:48, you have missed the timing of when the leaders of the church began to say and teach that ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ by more than 1,800 years.

Among others, those are some major holes in what you have believed.
 

Marine0311

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You have presented your evidence Scripturally, and I definitely see why you believe that way backed up by scripture.

I have presented Scriptural evidence as to why I believe Jesus was resurrected as a spirit being. We have concluded this topic, one of us is in error Ron. But it is not a critical topic as we both believe Jesus was resurrected which is an essential doctrine of the Christian faith.

So moving on to the next point. You said: 2. Only 144,000 can be born again when Jesus placed no such number.

You are correct, Jesus did not place that number, Jehovah did through the disciple John. Jesus called them a little flock (Luke 12:32) . . .“Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom. He said that he had sheep which was not of their fold: (John 10:16) . . .I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

The Bible has to be taken as a whole Ron, evidences of who they are are gradually revealed, but we can even see that in Jesus day they could be distinguished from the other sheep. Out of all of God's people in Jerusalem that night Jesus only made the covenant with his faithful 11: (Luke 22:28-30) . . .you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

The Bible went on to reveal these anointed ones of the covenant as called to be holy ones:
(1 Corinthians 1:2) . . .you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours. . . a letter from Paul written primarily to them but also to those of the other sheep as well, both flocks mentioned here.

They were called to be a holy nation: (1 Peter 2:9, 10) . . .But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy. Referred to as the Israel of God: (Galatians 6:16) . . .for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God. . .

John revealed the number of them and itemized them as tribes in Rev 7, and in chapter 5 gave the reason for their calling: (Revelation 5:9, 10) . . .And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
Those singing that new song number 144k and are purchased from the earth to reside in heaven with Jesus: (Revelation 14:1-3) . . .I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.

No doubt this is foreign to you Ron, pray for understanding, everything necessary to show who they are and why is in these verses. Will take some thinking on it as I know you haven't been taught this way.