If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?

[Bob Carabbio]

God's people have never been perfect Bob, but yes from the first Covenant given through Moses, He had a visible Denomination on earth. His people underwent a covenant change and you are absolutely correct that covenant is with the born again Christians only. They as well are not perfect, and still sin like the other sheep do, but they are God's visible representatives here on earth.

Since Jesus' disciples have been making disciples since the first century, and we have entered into the last days after the apostasy ended His people have been gathered to His figurative Holy mountain Isa 2:2-4 and are very visible and identifiable, in fact there are at least four identifications I see in those three verses alone. Can you see any of those identifying facts Bob? It can be fun to break down those verses to see the meaning.

Are you able to post more identifying passages that narrow it down further?

I wouldn't bother.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Since what I have posted is in writing maam, it is easy enough to show.

If I found JW's were not the one faith of God I would exit fast. I have invited others many times to scripturally identify the faith, but to date no one has. The Bible identifies God's people beyond any doubt, if it doesn't then God has no right whatsoever to remove wicked, as He has not given the requirements to be righteous, does this make any sense Jane.

I certainly do not give death threats maam, but God promises what He recorded for us at 2 Thes 1:6-9 His words not mine. I think that may be what you refer to. I guarantee God is not a liar, and what He foretells will come to be, so if you want to consider the broad road to destruction a death threat, fine, I consider it a future fact.

I believe there are many loving people in the world, and sometimes I question the lack of love among us Jehovah's witnesses. The truth is however, not all who claim to be Jehovah's witnesses are, and that has always been the case. A true witness of Jehovah will in fact be a very loving person. I try not to concentrate on it, as we are imperfect humans, but if we are lacking love, we should really take action to correct it before Jehovah does.

I am very appreciative of your honesty maam, so lets get down to business. Pick one false teaching you think we twist, and I will be glad to show you why it is Scriptural, put me to the test, as I fully intend to live up to 2 Tim 4:5

Your honesty is once again admired. Also the fact that you actually talk with me, versus talking at me or going off on unrelated tangents. I can tell the thought in your posts. You're the first JW I've talked with that displays these qualities, and I've talked to a LOT of JW. I spent months trying to see something good in that denomination.

I'll be direct: I have zero interest in listening to you quote Bible versus to defend your beliefs. I've studied dozens of Christian denominations, and seen dozens of such defenses, each very thought out, each listing a million quotes. Heck, even the devil quotes scripture to defend his points. I am completely unimpressed with such.

As to my own beliefs: that also doesn't matter for this conversation. You aren't a JW because you reject my beliefs, but because you have found what you to be Truth in the JW denomination. Likewise I found Truth in my beliefs. And I'm not going to harass you. Instead, I celebrate your love of God & your honesty. May He ever bless you.

 

[ScottA]

We agree that it is ongoing, however we certainly do not agree on the time it started, we believe the first resurrection occurred after the end of the times of the gentiles.

Perhaps we need to clarify what that term means. It is a time period where Jehovah had no King to sit on His throne. It started when the last King (Zedekiah) was removed from the throne, and ended when Jesus received the crown. The prophecy in Daniel reveals this time period to be a period of 2520 yrs. We believe that Zedekiah was removed in 607 BCE and Jesus was enthroned in 1914 CE, and the signs Jesus gave his followers appear to bear out the accuracy of that understanding. We entered into the last day stretch of this world in 1914.

Okay... Would you not say that Jesus is the center of all this, the center of all of Daniel's prophecy and the times appointed?

If so, then He has stated the times as the times of the two flocks of sheep that He must bring, the house of Israel, and then the gentiles. As He said, "It is finished" for the house of Israel. Then, by His appointment He sent forth the Holy Spirit as foretold by Joel the prophet, which was to be upon all flesh, and began at Pentecost, as confirmed by Peter. Which to be upon all flesh, would mean every people and nation of the gentiles, which is the church age that He defined the end as coming as the end, not before.

Thus, I would reason that your math of times according to Daniel is convenient, but does not reconcile with the end of the age coming to its full end with the fullness of the times of the gentiles, which times are evident by the ongoing activity of the Holy Spirit ordered by Christ until the end.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Get serious Ron, if Jesus was not raised what hope do we have sir? Of course we believe he was resurrected and our written conversations have shown that I believe such, why do you make false accusations sir?
(1 Corinthians 15:20-32) . . .Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone. 29 Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the purpose of being dead ones? If the dead are not to be raised up at all, why are they also being baptized for the purpose of being such? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour? 31 Daily I face death. This is as sure as my exultation over you, brothers, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If like other men, I have fought with wild beasts at Ephʹe·sus, of what good is it to me? If the dead are not to be raised up, “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.. . .

Let's try to learn from the exchanges, do you think that is possible Ron?

If y9u believede the real definition of resurrection, I could agree with you. But you are using a lie as to what resurrection means, Jesus rose from teh dead! It means what died was made alive again! that is resurrection! anything else is a lie! Every dictionary, every Hebrew and Greek dictionaries all say this as well! the Watchtower denies this. If Jesus died physiocally and rose as a spirit, He did not experience resurrfection, no matter how reasoned out the Watchtower tries to make iT.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Once again yuo9 call Jesus a liar if He di dnot rise with the body He died with!

John 2:19-22
King James Version

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.



Look and pray at verse 21

BUT HE SPAKE OF THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY!

How much plainer and easier to understand does Jesus have to make it????????????????????????????????????????

 

[Ronald Nolette]

As the passages I posted showed, they are from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues sir.

But you wrongly made Rev. 7:9 mean the 144,000. but if you read Gods word as He wrote it you would see that cannot be!

for the multitude no man could number while the 144,000 have a number. and tot eh writers of Scripture (who were the ones inspired by God) "every nation, tribe, tongue is simply a euphemism for Gentiles while God went to great lengths to make sure we understood the 144,000 to be Jews!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No matter what you call them sir, there are in fact two groups of sheep.

Yes and as Jesus said, they become on efold- not two! Just like Paul revealed in Ephesians 2! Trust the Word of God as written and not a man made organization.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes - the Truth is far too important to be "lessened" by other issues.

Fantastic Air. Do you believe the Bible identifies the faith?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Are you a JW? This reasoning has been used for establishing 1914 as the beginning of Christ's invisible reign.

Yes sir I am. Welcome to the forum sir, I hope we will have many meaningful conversations.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I agree Jane,
I wonder what @Robert Gwin would answer to: " Isaiah 9:6 we read: “For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” NWT

So, is Jehovah equal to The Father God?

No Jesus is not equal to Jehovah, but he is the closest that will ever be. Are you aware that sitting at the Fathers right hand signifies position maam? 1 Cor 11:3

 

[Robert Gwin]

I wouldn't bother.

Most people don't sir of which I find very strange. The very most important step in life, and most people take no note as Jesus said.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Your honesty is once again admired. Also the fact that you actually talk with me, versus talking at me or going off on unrelated tangents. I can tell the thought in your posts. You're the first JW I've talked with that displays these qualities, and I've talked to a LOT of JW. I spent months trying to see something good in that denomination.

I'll be direct: I have zero interest in listening to you quote Bible versus to defend your beliefs. I've studied dozens of Christian denominations, and seen dozens of such defenses, each very thought out, each listing a million quotes. Heck, even the devil quotes scripture to defend his points. I am completely unimpressed with such.

As to my own beliefs: that also doesn't matter for this conversation. You aren't a JW because you reject my beliefs, but because you have found what you to be Truth in the JW denomination. Likewise I found Truth in my beliefs. And I'm not going to harass you. Instead, I celebrate your love of God & your honesty. May He ever bless you.

I became one of Jehovah's witnesses Jane by trying to prove them wrong. I really thought you would be able to come up with something. What is the most serious reason that you would not consider us to be the people of God. You will either be correct in your analogy, or I will be able to show you why it is a teaching from God, or you might even be able to make me put my foot in my mouth. Keep in mind the title of this post.

I will give you one, in fact I just addressed it, you believe Jesus is equal to Jehovah correct? What Scriptural evidence do you have to support that teaching? You didn't teach that but Nancy did and you liked her post.

 

[Nancy]

No Jesus is not equal to Jehovah, but he is the closest that will ever be. Are you aware that sitting at the Fathers right hand signifies position maam? 1 Cor 11:3

Hello Robert,
"No Jesus is not equal to Jehovah, but he is the closest that will ever be. Are you aware that sitting at the Fathers right hand signifies position maam? 1 Cor 11:3"


in Isaiah 43:10-11 (NWT), “Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.” And Isa: 44:6 (NWT) says: “I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”

So, Jesus is just another of a ton of other mighty"god's" small "g". Is Jesus a false G"god" or is Jehova a false "god"? No. So in reality you are worshipping two "gods"...mighty gods! And before you talk about Capital "G" Gods, the Hebrew has no caps, NWT boo boo.

Jesus positioning at The Fathers right hand, you say is just a title, position thing. In that case there are many "true" Gods and not just one.
John 17:3 (NWT) says “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”
If that’s true, how could you say that Jesus is a true God?

How many god's are true and how many are false?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Okay... Would you not say that Jesus is the center of all this, the center of all of Daniel's prophecy and the times appointed?

If so, then He has stated the times as the times of the two flocks of sheep that He must bring, the house of Israel, and then the gentiles. As He said, "It is finished" for the house of Israel. Then, by His appointment He sent forth the Holy Spirit as foretold by Joel the prophet, which was to be upon all flesh, and began at Pentecost, as confirmed by Peter. Which to be upon all flesh, would mean every people and nation of the gentiles, which is the church age that He defined the end as coming as the end, not before.

Thus, I would reason that your math of times according to Daniel is convenient, but does not reconcile with the end of the age coming to its full end with the fullness of the times of the gentiles, which times are evident by the ongoing activity of the Holy Spirit ordered by Christ until the end.

The end of the age Mat 24:3 is when this world ends sir, after that last day stretch. The time of his presence starts when the gentile times ended. I think you need to research what does the term mean. I think you will find I am not incorrect that it means there is no King sitting on the throne of God's people. The 7 times were not just the 7 yrs that Nebuchadnezzar did not sit on the throne, rather they represented God's people not having a King sitting on the throne for seven times, and since Jesus said those times were going on in his day, each time would be longer than one year sir. We figure them at totaling 2520 yrs.

 

[Robert Gwin]

If y9u believede the real definition of resurrection, I could agree with you. But you are using a lie as to what resurrection means, Jesus rose from teh dead! It means what died was made alive again! that is resurrection! anything else is a lie! Every dictionary, every Hebrew and Greek dictionaries all say this as well! the Watchtower denies this. If Jesus died physiocally and rose as a spirit, He did not experience resurrfection, no matter how reasoned out the Watchtower tries to make iT.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Once again yuo9 call Jesus a liar if He di dnot rise with the body He died with!

John 2:19-22
King James Version

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.



Look and pray at verse 21

BUT HE SPAKE OF THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY!

How much plainer and easier to understand does Jesus have to make it????????????????????????????????????????

After Jesus’ Resurrection, Was His Body Flesh or Spirit?
The Bible’s answer
The Bible says that Jesus “was put to death in the flesh but made alive [resurrected] in the spirit.”—1 Peter 3:18; Acts 13:34; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 5:16.
Jesus’ own words showed that he would not be resurrected with his flesh-and-blood body. He said that he would give his “flesh in behalf of the life of the world,” as a ransom for mankind. (John 6:51; Matthew 20:28) If he had taken back his flesh when he was resurrected, he would have canceled that ransom sacrifice. This could not have happened, though, for the Bible says that he sacrificed his flesh and blood “once for all time.”—Hebrews 9:11, 12.
If Jesus was raised up with a spirit body, how could his disciples see him?
Spirit creatures can take on human form. For example, angels who did this in the past even ate and drank with humans. (Genesis 18:1-8; 19:1-3) However, they still were spirit creatures and could leave the physical realm.—Judges 13:15-21.
After his resurrection, Jesus also assumed human form temporarily, just as angels had previously done. As a spirit creature, though, he was able to appear and disappear suddenly. (Luke 24:31; John 20:19, 26) The fleshly bodies that he materialized were not identical from one appearance to the next. Thus, even Jesus’ close friends recognized him only by what he said or did.—Luke 24:30, 31, 35; John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7.
When Jesus appeared to the apostle Thomas, he took on a body with wound marks. He did this to bolster Thomas’ faith, since Thomas doubted that Jesus had been raised up.—John 20:24-29.

 

[Robert Gwin]

But you wrongly made Rev. 7:9 mean the 144,000. but if you read Gods word as He wrote it you would see that cannot be!

for the multitude no man could number while the 144,000 have a number. and tot eh writers of Scripture (who were the ones inspired by God) "every nation, tribe, tongue is simply a euphemism for Gentiles while God went to great lengths to make sure we understood the 144,000 to be Jews!

Nope, the 144k ended in verse 8, the great crowd was the other sheep not of that fold sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes and as Jesus said, they become on efold- not two! Just like Paul revealed in Ephesians 2! Trust the Word of God as written and not a man made organization.

That is very true, in the future they will become one flock under one shepherd as Jesus prophesied.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I became one of Jehovah's witnesses Jane by trying to prove them wrong. I really thought you would be able to come up with something. What is the most serious reason that you would not consider us to be the people of God. You will either be correct in your analogy, or I will be able to show you why it is a teaching from God, or you might even be able to make me put my foot in my mouth. Keep in mind the title of this post.

I will give you one, in fact I just addressed it, you believe Jesus is equal to Jehovah correct? What Scriptural evidence do you have to support that teaching? You didn't teach that but Nancy did and you liked her post.

I"m NOT interested in scripture dueling you Robert. I stated that quite clearly. No means no.

I acknowledge and celebrate your individual faith, and I hope to see you in the hereafter even through the theological difference. I have zero interest in joining the abusive wolf that is the Watchtower organization. Nor am I going to force you to see that fact-- I acknowledge your autonomy. And I demand that you acknowledge mine.

Your options here are:
1) Acknowledge and celebrate my faith -- as a person whom will never join the Watchtower.
2) End of conversation. If that means you mourn my death because I reject the WatchTower then go go ahead and have a funeral.

 

[ScottA]

The end of the age Mat 24:3 is when this world ends sir, after that last day stretch. The time of his presence starts when the gentile times ended. I think you need to research what does the term mean. I think you will find I am not incorrect that it means there is no King sitting on the throne of God's people. The 7 times were not just the 7 yrs that Nebuchadnezzar did not sit on the throne, rather they represented God's people not having a King sitting on the throne for seven times, and since Jesus said those times were going on in his day, each time would be longer than one year sir. We figure them at totaling 2520 yrs.

No..."the time of his presence" started when He said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Which began "quickly" after His going to the Father, just as He said it would, during the times of the gentiles. Of which He said, "I must also bring." This is the chronology according to His own revealing, as apposed to what may be interpreted of prophecy as calculated by men.

As for "no king sitting on the throne of God"...Jesus received His throne and became the King of Kings, when and as He said, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

As for the "seven times"-- I tell you, as did He, saying, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." which "He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John" that which "must shortly take place" during His generation.

 

[APAK]

Faith isn't something you can choose. Rather, faith grows within you until the day comes when you realize you believe. Oftentimes that belief comes as a shock, being wholly unexpected. At least that's my experience.

Yes indeed, my experience as well. We are given faith to grow, and to then one day believe and realize we know!

As a further refinement for completeness:

We are given faith to grow into, and to then one day believe and realize we know that we are one, with our God, the Father, and his Son!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Bible says that Jesus “was put to death in the flesh but made alive [resurrected] in the spirit.”—1 Peter 3:18; Acts 13:34; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 5:16.

Now you are twisting the word of god.

and it is by the Spirit not in the Spirit.

So you do think Jesus a liar!

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus said He would raise His body from the dead!

all your fancy philosophy and plauying sapiritual twister cannot remove the fact jesus said- destroy His body and He will raise it up!

For anyone truly seeking to follow Jesus- this verse shouldebe enough!