If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?

[Jane_Doe22]

and why??

Any Christian organization/movement should be focused on being pro-Christ. Focused on welcoming all to Christ, bringing good things to the table, and uplifting all.

In contrast, the “anti-cult” movement is focused on bringing people down, attacking others, denying persons love of Christ, human gate keepers, discouraging independent research, etc. It’s not healthy for anyone involved. Honestly I find it to a cult itself.

I do strongly reject JW beliefs, but not because of what Walter Martin said. Instead I walked into a JW Kingdom Hall myself and listened to JW persons directly explain their beliefs to me, making sure I correctly understood what those beliefs were, and also examining the fruits therein.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Any Christian organization/movement should be focused on being pro-Christ. Focused on welcoming all to Christ, bringing good things to the table, and uplifting all.

In contrast, the “anti-cult” movement is focused on bringing people down, attacking others, denying persons love of Christ, human gate keepers, discouraging independent research, etc. It’s not healthy for anyone involved. Honestly I find it to a cult itself.

I do strongly reject JW beliefs, but not because of what Walter Martin said. Instead I walked into a JW Kingdom Hall myself and listened to JW persons directly explain their beliefs to me, making sure I correctly understood what those beliefs were, and also examining the fruits therein.

Well I was banned from all kingdom halls. I even had a letter written warning ministerial elders about me.

We must earnestly contend for the faith, and that means exposing false doctrine. I have gone against Mormons, Moonies and other cults in the hopes of gettign them to see the supremacy of Jesus and not their cult.

We by neccesity will step on peoples toes when we share the gospel. Especially with the cults! Men like Martin do a valuable service for many Christians by condensing down the false beliefs of organizations and showing people methods of giving a sound biblical answer to counter the lies these people are indoctrinated in.

Dealing with people in cults requires a much different methodology than dealing with people who simply aren't saved.

These people have been inculcated in slick reinterpreting of Scripture and you must confront them in love.

I respectfully disagree with you on what the "anti-cult movement" does. I imagine there are many out there that do so in hate, but there are many like Martin who do so in love. I sat in two of his seminars and the man is all about seeing those in cults saved.

but I read Christians books on cults and then went to teh cults on my own (just to be a berean) there was nothing written that disagreed with the false demonic doctrines of cults. I owned a library of watchtower materials that was larger than many smaller kingdom halls.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Well I was banned from all kingdom halls. I even had a letter written warning ministerial elders about me.

We must earnestly contend for the faith, and that means exposing false doctrine. I have gone against Mormons, Moonies and other cults in the hopes of gettign them to see the supremacy of Jesus and not their cult.

We by neccesity will step on peoples toes when we share the gospel. Especially with the cults! Men like Martin do a valuable service for many Christians by condensing down the false beliefs of organizations and showing people methods of giving a sound biblical answer to counter the lies these people are indoctrinated in.

Dealing with people in cults requires a much different methodology than dealing with people who simply aren't saved.

These people have been inculcated in slick reinterpreting of Scripture and you must confront them in love.

I respectfully disagree with you on what the "anti-cult movement" does. I imagine there are many out there that do so in hate, but there are many like Martin who do so in love. I sat in two of his seminars and the man is all about seeing those in cults saved.

but I read Christians books on cults and then went to teh cults on my own (just to be a berean) there was nothing written that disagreed with the false demonic doctrines of cults. I owned a library of watchtower materials that was larger than many smaller kingdom halls.

*Jane shakes her head*
Contending for the faith means to preach goodness of Christ, not attacking others humans. I PASSIONATELY disagree with you here with the exact same passion I disagree with a JW. And also like working with a JW, I know nothing I will say will change your mind.

 

[Dropship]

A veteran JW once posted in a religious forum saying-
"Dropship is ignorant, a fable-spinner, talks drivel, a deceiver, racist, self-deluded"
He'd said earlier that he left the JW's as a young man, but later went back to them and married a JW woman, so I jokingly said "I bet you only went back so you could whip her knickers off" and that must have upset him because it struck a raw nerve..

Another oddball who took a dislike to me in another forum was a 'Reverend' Eric Potts, he said "You disgust me".
But it turned out Potts wasn't a real vicar, just a jumped-up 'Assistant Methodist Minister', he was probably the janitor of their local meeting hall and they gave him that lofty title to keep him sweet so he'd go on slopping out their latrines..

Another forum wacko was a witch who said she was invoking the egyptian goddess Sekhmet to come and get me, so I said "Thanks, I'll put the kettle on", but she never turned up. Hey guys don't you just hate getting stood up by goddesses? (sniffle).
Mind you, I wouldn't have known whether to offer her a saucer of milk or tickle her chin-

 

[Ronald Nolette]

*Jane shakes her head*
Contending for the faith means to preach goodness of Christ, not attacking others humans. I PASSIONATELY disagree with you here with the exact same passion I disagree with a JW. And also like working with a JW, I know nothing I will say will change your mind.

Well if one is attacking individuals that is wrong. but to show and expose false doctrine in the hopes of setting them free from the shackles of false teaching is the height of love.

showing a JW that the Watchtower has lied to them and that Jesus is God the Son and physically rose from the dead, may irritate them and even anger them. but we must contend for the faith once for all handed down.

these people are lost and think they are found! Through the use of Scripture we must show them they have been taught wrong in the hopes that the Word of God will help expose false doctrine they have been deceived with.

bob and I on this thread have very heated discussions, but never have I attacked him personally. The organization that has lied to him? Absolultely! that is what Paul did, and even Jesus did My desire is to show Him the truth and be saved! If it means whomping him up side the head with the 2X4 of Scripture- I will do so!

 

[Dropship]

Hey JW's be careful, the naughty step...

"..the Colored race... have been and are a race of servants...There is no servant in the world as good as a good Colored servant"
— JW The Golden Age, July 24, 1929
"..the white race exhibits some qualities of superiority over any other.....the greater intelligence and aptitude of the Caucasian.."— Zion's Watch Tower 07/15 1902
"..colored people have less education than whites.....reading matter distributed to a colored congregation would more than half of it be utterly wasted"- Zion's Watch Tower 03/15 1900

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Well if one is attacking individuals that is wrong. but to show and expose false doctrine in the hopes of setting them free from the shackles of false teaching is the height of love.

showing a JW that the Watchtower has lied to them and that Jesus is God the Son and physically rose from the dead, may irritate them and even anger them. but we must contend for the faith once for all handed down.

these people are lost and think they are found! Through the use of Scripture we must show them they have been taught wrong in the hopes that the Word of God will help expose false doctrine they have been deceived with.

bob and I on this thread have very heated discussions, but never have I attacked him personally. The organization that has lied to him? Absolultely! that is what Paul did, and even Jesus did My desire is to show Him the truth and be saved! If it means whomping him up side the head with the 2X4 of Scripture- I will do so!

And JW use these exact same arguments.

Again: I know that you're not going to change or listen to anything I say, so I'm not going to waste our time with that. I acknowledge your right & the JW right to believe as you do, regardless of what I think of it.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I have known Jesus since a girl and continue to grow closer and closer.
I have no desire to change my faith sir, thanks tho!

Great! May I ask what Jesus said the main reason he was sent was?

 

[Robert Gwin]

The one flock? Sure! Just go with those who believe in the death and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin payment! We aren't perfect- just forgiven.

YOu have been drilled in teh Catholic mindset that it must be a sect or organization. the body of Christ is not! It is a living organism made up of all believers in all sects, that have placed their trust in the death and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin.

I am happy your watchtower revealed that to you Ron, I think I will stick to the Bible however sir. Jesus said Jehovah's word is truth, best pay attention to it.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Besides misinterpreting the word generation, the watchtower just arbitrarily declared Jesus returned invisibly in 1914. They also arbitrarily declared Jesus returned in 1874 and Judge Rutherford ( the 2nd president of the watchtower) wrote in his book "prophecy" published in 1930, ( I paraphrase) that the biblical evidence is conclusive that Jesus returned invisibly in 1874.

And it wasn't his presence that that particular generation would not pass away.

Matthew 24:32-34
King James Version

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

And if you want to know what teh all things are- read Matthew 24 to that point, in any bible other than the New World Mistranslation.

I do not know what your watchtower teaches sir, but Jehovah's witnesses believe that Jesus was enthroned as King in 1914, satan and the demons were cast to the earth, and we entered into the last days of this system. We put into print the end of the times of the Gentiles would end in that year in 1879. Jesus really gave those signs to his disciples for them to understand alone Mat 13:11 but even most unbelievers are able to discern the signs now Ron.

Most faiths out there believe we are at the end of this system and that Jesus can return at any time, so if your watchtower is unable to discern that as of now, perhaps you should get a new one sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well bob we do not have a "Watchtower". We have a bible and Gods Inspired Word calls the 144,000 ethnic Jews! 12,000 from twelve tribes of Israel. Also Gods Inspired Word, believed as written and not mystically reinterpreted lets us know these 144,000 have not even made the scene yet.

All 144,000 appear on earth at the same time and are sealed for service AFTER the first six seals are opened and the damage from them are done. So they are a future event to happen on earth.

Then wouldn't you consider it wise to examine what it says? Making the scene is for those up in the haight ashbury area, but we Christians prefer to dig on the Bible sir.

In all seriousness, the gathering of the anointed began with the outpouring of the holy spirit in 33CE. The covenant is with them sir and Jesus clearly included the faithful 11 in that covenant actually making that covenant with them Luke 22:28,29.

Now I will say this, we believe the first resurrection happened shortly after Jesus was enthroned, but there is no way to prove that, and the account of it in 1 Thes seems to indicate it will happen during his return, so I am at a loss on this. We are not Inspired of God, and subject to error for sure.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well, it is not that there is no such thing as two fold prophecy, but your conclusion should then not go against the actual prophecy given by Christ, that these days are as the days of Noah, eating and drinking, etc..

If you can hear it, I would suggest that the two fold prophecy idea is just a convenient would-be confirmation of the lie and strong delusion that without a doubt is the other actual prophecy of these times. The thing about lies, is you need to keep telling them, while dismissing all else.

You might also consider, that your OP is actually projection, an image of the subconscious wrestling with the truth.

Actually sir there is not much doubt about Mat 24, it had a fulfillment with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, and since the horses of the apocalypse parallel that account, and was recorded around 25 yrs after the destruction of Jerusalem, then we know it has a future fulfillment as well. Keep in mind verse 22 Scott, we have never come close to the point of extinction, and it is then that God will step in to save His chosen ones.

 

[Nancy]

Great! May I ask what Jesus said the main reason he was sent was?

I would think you already knew the answer to this question by now Robert. Please don't pretend to be my teacher cause you aren't...sir.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And JW use these exact same arguments.

Again: I know that you're not going to change or listen to anything I say, so I'm not going to waste our time with that. I acknowledge your right & the JW right to believe as you do, regardless of what I think of it.

Once again this is not to attack the person, but to tear down strongholds through the use of Scripture. This is what we are commanded to do.

And you will not change your opinion no matter what I say! I can only look back at hundreds of encounters with members of cults, and look at the results and fruit.

I also know God has designed each of our personalities. He will not send to you teh tough nuts to crack, but those who need a much more gentle touch. While I get those who need a much stronger confrontation. Both are right based on the person God sends our ways.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Once again this is not to attack the person, but to tear down strongholds through the use of Scripture. This is what we are commanded to do.

And you will not change your opinion no matter what I say! I can only look back at hundreds of encounters with members of cults, and look at the results and fruit.

And I can only look at the hundreds of testimonies of Christ I have seen destroyed and/or twisted by the "anti-cult" movement.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And I can only look at the hundreds of testimonies of Christ I have seen destroyed and/or twisted by the "anti-cult" movement.

Well that is hard because if the anti cult movement is used on Christians that is a wrong application. Once again every person is different and needs a different personality to reach them. God made you with a much softer touch soi you will get those who need more gentle ways. I get those deeply entrenched and ne3ed to be shaken. Both are right in their place.

I don't believe3 we should have an "anti-cult" movement. Every believer is called to be armed to handle those held captive by cults. God will send to each believer the personality type that is best suited for the believer.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Well that is hard because if the anti cult movement is used on Christians that is a wrong application. Once again every person is different and needs a different personality to reach them. God made you with a much softer touch soi you will get those who need more gentle ways. I get those deeply entrenched and ne3ed to be shaken. Both are right in their place.

I don't believe3 we should have an "anti-cult" movement. Every believer is called to be armed to handle those held captive by cults. God will send to each believer the personality type that is best suited for the believer.

Again, I PASSIONATELY disagree with you on every point here. EXTREMELY PASSIONATELY. I am skipping any more explanation because there is no point: you don't want to hear it. I acknowledge your choice there, and won't waste either of our time. But I'm sorry, but I can no longer respect you or your beliefs.

Have a nice day.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Again, I PASSIONATELY disagree with you on every point here. EXTREMELY PASSIONATELY. I am skipping any more explanation because there is no point: you don't want to hear it. I acknowledge your choice there, and won't waste either of our time. But I'm sorry, but I can no longer respect you or your beliefs.

Have a nice day.

I do have nice days. I hope that you never think of me again because it appears the thought of me will not let you have a nice day. I can respect your belief it is too bad you cannot see that the Lord equips His saints for different jobs with different tools.

 

[ScottA]

Actually sir there is not much doubt about Mat 24, it had a fulfillment with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, and since the horses of the apocalypse parallel that account, and was recorded around 25 yrs after the destruction of Jerusalem, then we know it has a future fulfillment as well. Keep in mind verse 22 Scott, we have never come close to the point of extinction, and it is then that God will step in to save His chosen ones.

Every generation has come to extinction...which was shortened long ago.

See here in Mark, the same word as Matthew 24:22 in past tense:

Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.​

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I do have nice days. I hope that you never think of me again because it appears the thought of me will not let you have a nice day. I can respect your belief it is too bad you cannot see that the Lord equips His saints for different jobs with different tools.

I am SO close to loosing my temper here:
Ronald, you say that you respect my beliefs, but yet you pride yourself in participating in "anti-cult" movement. That's an inherent contradiction: I'm a "Mormon". But not the "Mormonism" Water Martin told you about-- that's nothing but a huge straw man argument that has nothing to do with actual beliefs.