Illumination

[Wormwood]

1...because these words are actions written down, not just words...The bible is a written record of the author/s....and the story comes to life in the heart of those reading it through the Holy Spirit


2. The Scribes and the Pharisees had access to the OT scriptures yet they crucified one they were waiting for...why? 1 Corinthians 2:7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 it's because they did not understand scripture...they were waiting for a conqueror...a King


3. If it were just a matter of Philip explaining to the Eunuch about the message of the cross, there would not be any need for the Holy Spirit's presence..


4. I do not know what you are talking about. Binding and loosing is a normal part of Spiritual Warfare in most Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches and the majority of eschatology enthusiasts, work out the book of Revelation based on scripture themselves...which [funny enough] tends to differ remarkably. :huh:


5. All the above is based on each individual Church. There will never be a universal Church agreement on such things due to the Churches theology or/and modus operandi...


6. Added: So in a sense - illuminating, shedding light upon, revealing and gaining understanding of the bible, with the help of the Holy Spirit. has never been about "correct interpretation" but about the truth! :huh:

Shalom!

Hey Angelina,

I numbered your quote to make it easier to respond.

1. Well, they are just words. But they are God's words. When God spoke, "Let there be light." He used...just words. But they were powerful words.

2. Yes, this makes my point. Jesus was upset with the Pharisees because they should have known better by studying the Scriptures. If God was hiding the truth from them because his refusal to illumine them, then why would Jesus be frustrated that they did not recognize him? How could they if God was refusing to illumine them?

3. Yes, I believe God works providentially by putting teachers and leaders in the right place at the right time. Why would God need to direct Philip if his primary mode of teaching is inner illumination? Could have saved Philip a trip away from a booming ministry in Samaria. :)

4. Work out the book fo Revelation based on the Scriptures themselves? Why when God can just illumine us and save us all the hassle? *tongue in cheek*

5. Yes but the there is a universal Spirit in every church. If the churches theology is based on a univeral Spirit who is illuminating every believer, we would expect a lot more agreement than what we currently have. This argument about different churches and theologies makes my point...clearly the Spirit is not illuminating people to see things the same way...and many in opposite ways.

6. Okay. Well do me a favor and ask God to illumine you about the truth of whether or not he desires you to wear a head covering and remain silent in church. Let me know the truth of what those verses mean so I can inform the rest of Christendom and put an end to all this male/female debate :) (sorry..im a little punchy today...most of this is tongue in cheek :) )

 

[Angelina]

1. Well, they are just words. But they are God's words. When God spoke, "Let there be light." He used...just words. But they were powerful words.

^Indeed they were...that is why they were recorded... why "men moved by God" wrote them down.

2. Yes, this makes my point. Jesus was upset with the Pharisees because they should have known better by studying the Scriptures. If God was hiding the truth from them because his refusal to illumine them, then why would Jesus be frustrated that they did not recognize him? How could they if God was refusing to illumine them?

^You could also say that if scripture could be read without being [illuminated,shed light upon, revealed] they should have recognized who he was...but they did not, did they? BTW: the scribes and the Pharisees were very learned people. They knew scripture better than any of us today.....

3. Yes, I believe God works providentially by putting teachers and leaders in the right place at the right time. Why would God need to direct Philip if his primary mode of teaching is inner illumination? Could have saved Philip a trip away from a booming ministry in Samaria. :)

^An angel of the Lord sent Philip to the Eunuch... yet scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit was directing him..."faith comes from hearing, and hearing the word of God"....

4. Work out the book fo Revelation based on the Scriptures themselves? Why when God can just illumine us and save us all the hassle? *tongue in cheek*

^...because some people believe as you do [that we only need to read the scriptures because they are already divinely inspired] and as I have said above...they all seem to come up with different :) interpretations

5. Yes but the there is a universal Spirit in every church. If the churches theology is based on a univeral Spirit who is illuminating every believer, we would expect a lot more agreement than what we currently have. This argument about different churches and theologies makes my point...clearly the Spirit is not illuminating people to see things the same way...and many in opposite ways.

^ We were talking about the bible. It was you who stated that "illumination of scripture via the Holy Spirit is not necessary because scripture is already inspired." I did not say that the Holy Spirit illuminates how a Church is run or who will be doing this or that...you are adding into our original conversation??? :blink:

6. Okay. Well do me a favor and ask God to illumine you about the truth of whether or not he desires you to wear a head covering and remain silent in church. Let me know the truth of what those verses mean so I can inform the rest of Christendom and put an end to all this male/female debate :) (sorry..im a little punchy today...most of this is tongue in cheek :) )

^ Again...another conversation that we were actually not having..... :huh:

Shalom!

 

[Wormwood]

Angelina,

Of course there are all kinds of intelligent people that know the Word better than us both who are unbelievers. I am not saying that knowledge of the Bible ensures someone will believe it. There are all kinds of reasons why a person can know God's word and not believe or obey it. I just don't think one of those reasons is that God is preventing them because he wont illumine them.

Yes faith comes by hearing the word of God, not being illumined to know the word of God.

You don't seem to understand that people run the church and lead the church in different ways because they feel the Bible instructs them in that manner. Should a woman teach or should she not? Paul had strong words about this and only a "true" understanding of what Paul meant will allow us to know what God requires in his revealed Word. If that truth is illumined as you suppose, all spiritual believers should be led to do the same things. That is my point. You keep trying to argue that these doctrinal matters are a different discussion. They are not. They are the heart of the issue. If God is giving people a correct understanding of his word, part of that understanding relates to issues of leadership, spiritual gifts, communion, baptism and so forth. The fact that Christians do not agree on the meaning, significance or purpose of many of these things shows that God is not the one giving these Christians their understanding of these issues. You see, our practices are very significant for our relationship with Christ. The Bible informs us about those practices. God wants us to search and properly divide his word because he is not magically illuminating believers to a proper understanding of the biblical text.

 

[Angelina]

Of course there are all kinds of intelligent people that know the Word better than us both who are unbelievers. I am not saying that knowledge of the Bible ensures someone will believe it. There are all kinds of reasons why a person can know God's word and not believe or obey it. I just don't think one of those reasons is that God is preventing them because he wont illumine them.

The point is that God is not preventing them...the bible is the inspired word of God written for our instruction, reproof, correction and training in righteousness...those who have knowledge cannot read the bible without understanding. This understanding comes by revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Yes faith comes by hearing the word of God, not being illumined to know the word of God.

When guys like Philip, Paul and the apostles spoke. They did so through the power of the Holy Spirit. The word they spoke was indeed anointed and challenged the very heart of man....but understand that God knows who he was sending these apostles to and also knows the hearts that are open to receive the truth of the Gospel of salvation and those who will not...but he gives man/woman the invitation anyway...all this is recorded in his word

You don't seem to understand that people run the church and lead the church in different ways because they feel the Bible instructs them in that manner.

Well yes I do...I was a founding member of a number of Churches. One Pentecostal Church I was involved with used the Jethro principle under girding their Churches foundation. This was a good way of keeping strong accountability throughout but it came with it minus's as well as it's plus's.

Should a woman teach or should she not? Paul had strong words about this and only a "true" understanding of what Paul meant will allow us to know what God requires in his revealed Word. If that truth is illumined as you suppose, all spiritual believers should be led to do the same things.

People have misinterpreted what Paul was saying here...he was speaking directly to this particular Church because of their waywardness, which effected all the Churches....
The function of various Church systems are decided by leaders within their own local, regional and/or national levels. Not all Churches function the same way because they have different emphasis and [flavors]. You will be hard pressed to find a Baptismal pool in a Presbyterian Church because the Baptist Church emphasizes baptisms. The Salvation Army regularly distribute food, clothing and other basic needs into the community. Although you may find a small portion of that work in other Churches, the Salvation Army focuses more on helping the poor and needy...

The theology of a Church is a different thing entirely. The Churches I have been involved in have been salvation orientated and not so much leaning toward "should a woman teach?" I have been a sunday school teacher, a bible in schools teacher, a youth leader and have preached in Churches both nationally and internationally...the issue really isn't about whether a woman should teach but rather...is God in it? experience has shown that he is? ;) and again...I believe that the bible has been misunderstood by many because it was not [illuminated, revealed, lit upon] that God views male and female in the same light [children of God rather than male and female] especially when it comes to spreading the Gospel....

That is my point. You keep trying to argue that these doctrinal matters are a different discussion. They are not. They are the heart of the issue.

If it was the heart of the issue, the point of your thread...why did you not discuss these things rather than your point that "the bible is divinely inspired so it does not need the Holy Spirit to illuminate it"??? :huh:

If God is giving people a correct understanding of his word, part of that understanding relates to issues of leadership, spiritual gifts, communion, baptism and so forth. The fact that Christians do not agree on the meaning, significance or purpose of many of these things shows that God is not the one giving these Christians their understanding of these issues. You see, our practices are very significant for our relationship with Christ. The Bible informs us about those practices. God wants us to search and properly divide his word because he is not magically illuminating believers to a proper understanding of the biblical text.

A point to consider: If God is not giving Christians understanding [illuminating] of these issues and the bible is inspired without the Holy Spirit's revelation...why does the outcome remain the same... as you have already stated... should we then be in unity over all matters pertaining to his word since his word is inspired without the HS revelation?

...but I think that you are incorrect. The reason why God allows diversity is because he is diverse. As long as the fundamentals are intact. ie, the message of the cross, loving God and loving your neighbor [The royal law].

Be Blessed!

 

[Wormwood]

Angelina,

I really dont think you are following me here. Im afraid most of this discussion is me trying to correct misunderstandings you have of what I am trying to say so this feels like a revolving door.

This understanding comes by revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Yes. The Bible is revelation of the Holy Spirit.

When guys like Philip, Paul and the apostles spoke. They did so through the power of the Holy Spirit. The word they spoke was indeed anointed and challenged the very heart of man....but understand that God knows who he was sending these apostles to and also knows the hearts that are open to receive the truth of the Gospel of salvation and those who will not...but he gives man/woman the invitation anyway...all this is recorded in his word

I dont know what this has to do with the doctrine of illumination. Im not saying the Apostles or others were not directed or empowered by the Holy Spirit. :huh:

People have misinterpreted what Paul was saying here...he was speaking directly to this particular Church because of their waywardness, which effected all the Churches....
The function of various Church systems are decided by leaders within their own local, regional and/or national levels. Not all Churches function the same way because they have different emphasis and [flavors]. You will be hard pressed to find a Baptismal pool in a Presbyterian Church because the Baptist Church emphasizes baptisms.

This is my point Angela. There are many Christians who would argue that they have recieved illumination by the Spirit on this verse and have the opposite opinion. They would say they have not "misinterpreted it" but, rather, if you had the Spirit's illumination, you would see that you are in error on your position. And while this is a separate blog, I would disagree also (although I would not argue my position comes from the Spirit, but through the text itself). Paul uses references to Adam and Eve and creation as rationale for his views on leadership and gender roles. Thus, it seems Paul is using anything but a situational argument. Moreover, I dont think we ever see Paul using the failures in one church as rationale for establishing a rule for all other churches. Paul, in my estimation, seems more than able to deal with specific issues for specific churches in his letters. Anyway...im sure this will open a whole other can of worms.

If it was the heart of the issue, the point of your thread...why did you not discuss these things rather than your point that "the bible is divinely inspired so it does not need the Holy Spirit to illuminate it"??? :huh:

Again, this makes me wonder if you have really grasped the original point of what I am trying to say. The Holy Spirit does not give "correct interpretation" of the Bible. That is the doctrine of illumination. This has nothing to do with people being inspired, people being moved by God to preach or God knowing who has receptive hearts. This has everything to do with doctrine, and correct biblical interpretation.

 

[Angelina]

The Holy Spirit does not give "correct interpretation" of the Bible.

This is a strange conversation indeed... :huh: the bible surely does give revelation on certain aspects of his truth revealed through the Holy Spirit. I guess what we are debating about here is "correct interpretation." Please define?

Blessings!!!

 

[Wormwood]

Angelina,

Heres a quote I found online that I thought might put it in different words that may be more clear.

According to this doctrine, at best a person can gain only a limited, partial understanding of scripture without such divine illumination. So...the way divine illumination works, according to this view, a Christian (or non-Christian, for that matter) reads a passage of scripture, but unless the Holy Spirit is right there with him to "shine upon" the passage (figuratively speaking), he will come away with, at best, only limited understanding--and maybe little or no understanding in some cases (the degree of understanding varies and is not a major point here). On the other hand, WITH this divine illumination, the reader may now come away with a full understanding of the passage.

 

[Angelina]

On the other hand, WITH this divine illumination, the reader may now come away with a full understanding of the passage.

This slightly differs from the idea of "correct interpretation." perhaps not "full understanding" as Gods word seems to resonate on many different levels but I think they would definitely be satisfied that they have got a grasp on a certain aspect of truth that they may have been searching for... :huh:

Blessings!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

The topic of this thread is Illumination and it can be difficult to describe .... Maybe it will help if we look at the opposite of illumination (blindness) (from 2 Corinthians 4:4)

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

What about this. An excerpt from another writer on this topic.


[SIZE=13.5pt]DIFFERENT KINDS OF KNOWLEDGE[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Many seem to attain to great knowledge in Scripture without the inward illumination of the Spirit. However, there is a difference between the Greek ‘gnosis’, meaning knowledge, and ‘epignosis’, [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]meaning acknowledgement[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]. The former, on its own, affects only the speculative part of the mind. It does little good and much harm. It is the knowledge that puffs up (1 Cor 8:1).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]The latter knowledge, on the other hand, gives the mind an experience of the power and force of the truth, transforming the soul and all its desires, bringing the ‘full assurance of understanding’ to the mind itself[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] (Phil. 1:9; Luke 1:4; Col. 1:6, 9, 10; 2:2; 3:10; Rom. 10:2; Eph. 1:17; 4:13; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Tim. 2:25; 3:7; Titus 1:1; 2Pet. 1:2, 3, 8; 2:20). This knowledge is only attainable by the saving illumination of the Spirit of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Men may have a knowledge of words and the meaning of propositions in the Scripture without a knowledge of the things themselves (2 Cor. 3).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]THE NATURE OF THIS WORK OF THE SPIRIT[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]The Holy Spirit does this work by teaching ‘The unction teaches you.’ This does not refer to his direct inspiration, that is, his bringing new sacred truths from God directly to the minds of men. This is how he taught the apostles and prophets (1 Pet. 1:11-12; 2 Pet. 1:21). Nor does God grant new revelations to preserve his people from error. God has made sufficient provision in his Word for that (Isa. 8:20; 2 Pet. 1:19).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]The teaching referred to is his enabling us to discern, know and understand the mind and will of God as revealed in the Scriptures.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]It is not enough simply to know the truth. We must also be assured in our minds that we do really know it (Eph. 4:14; Col. 2:2). This assurance is given by the Holy Spirit ‘who is truth and is not a lie’. There is no possibility of anyone being deceived in what he is taught by this ‘unction’. The Holy Spirit gives to believers a secret witness to what he teaches, along with his teachings (1 John 5:6). There is a special power accompanying the teaching of God by his Spirit (Job 36:22; John 6:45). So whoever is taught in this way certainly believes the things he is taught, having the evidence of the truth of them in himself (1 John 5:10).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]Spiritual sense and judgment are able to discern the divine evidences in the things the Holy Spirit teaches (Heb. 5:14). This is what gives the mind the highest assurance of the truth that it is able to have in this world.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]Who will the Holy Spirit teach?[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]He will teach those who are meek and humble, those who give themselves to continual prayer, meditation and study in God’s Word day and night, and those who strive to conform their lives to the truths he instructs them in. [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Because these are hard conditions to flesh and blood, there are few who apply to study in the school of God, while many will apply to other teachers, especially to the church of Rome, where no cost in self-denial need be involved. JOHN OWEN[/SIZE]

 

[veteran]

This is what my Bible says...

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(KJV)

Those are our Lord Jesus' Own Words there.

We don't need man-made doctrines that try to divide meaning differences between words like illumination and correct interpretation, revelation, etc.

For one that studies God's Word by The Holy Spirit like they are supposed to, The Holy Spirit will impart the correct interpretation. Without The Holy Spirit, or with another spirit, or leaning to one's own understanding only, is where wrong Bible interpretations originate, as also doctrines of men like this Illuminati teaching that's being done in this thread by disguise.

Afterall, Apostle Paul DID... warn us that Satan's servants would come appearing as the ministers of Christ, and Satan himself as angel of light (2 Cor.11).

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

This is what my Bible says...

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(KJV)

Those are our Lord Jesus' Own Words there.

We don't need man-made doctrines that try to divide meaning differences between words like illumination and correct interpretation, revelation, etc.

For one that studies God's Word by The Holy Spirit like they are supposed to, The Holy Spirit will impart the correct interpretation. Without The Holy Spirit, or with another spirit, or leaning to one's own understanding only, is where wrong Bible interpretations originate, as also doctrines of men like this Illuminati teaching that's being done in this thread by disguise.

Afterall, Apostle Paul DID... warn us that Satan's servants would come appearing as the ministers of Christ, and Satan himself as angel of light (2 Cor.11).

My bible says Jesus was instructing his disciples while washing their feet.

Of course some people try to apply those instructions to themselves to form man made doctrines

 

[Rex]

My bible says Jesus was instructing his disciples while washing their feet.

Of course some people try to apply those instructions to themselves to form man made doctrines

Your funny Arnie
This is a common dispensation argument that infers that scripture is only relevant to those that are personally addressed. Where does that rule of thinking lead?
Well it infers that no one has a right to anything said or promised in the bible, why because you were not personally addressed.

You and many others, seem to believe that the original promise to Abraham is only addressed to the blood line children of Abraham, well that's not true, we see this fact in Isaac's two boys don't we. One He loved, the other he hated. So much for the blood line being the recipients of the promise, theory of blood line promise, up in smoke.

Secondly the original promise was to everyone, as we see here in Gal 3:8-9

Thirdly everything that was spoken and promised to the Apostles were also promised to everyone, that by faith believed, just as the original promise to Abraham was to all men through faith so is the NT promises to the disciples. Please read John chapter 17 and note that first Jesus prays for himself then for the disciples then he prays for everyone "that believes in Him through their message" John 17:20-21 That all of them may be one, verse 17:21 This is the foundation laid by Christ. It includes all peoples and nations.

You're starting to sound like veteran "man made doctrines"

I get a kick out of people that insist that promises concerning salvation are said to not be applicable to certain people because God or Jesus wasn't speaking to you or your particular secular group. What next? white power, black panthers, Zionist? I love the way dispensation fans the flames of segregation LOL

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Your funny Arnie
This is a common dispensation argument that infers that scripture is only relevant to those that are personally addressed. Where does that rule of thinking lead?
Well it infers that no one has a right to anything said or promised in the bible, why because you were not personally addressed.

Fine then ..... I call your bluff ... and ask you to demonstrate the same attributes the Apostles were mandated by Jesus

 

[veteran]

Your funny Arnie
This is a common dispensation argument that infers that scripture is only relevant to those that are personally addressed. Where does that rule of thinking lead?
Well it infers that no one has a right to anything said or promised in the bible, why because you were not personally addressed.

You and many others, seem to believe that the original promise to Abraham is only addressed to the blood line children of Abraham, well that's not true, we see this fact in Isaac's two boys don't we. One He loved, the other he hated. So much for the blood line being the recipients of the promise, theory of blood line promise, up in smoke.

Secondly the original promise was to everyone, as we see here in Gal 3:8-9

Thirdly everything that was spoken and promised to the Apostles were also promised to everyone, that by faith believed, just as the original promise to Abraham was to all men through faith so is the NT promises to the disciples. Please read John chapter 17 and note that first Jesus prays for himself then for the disciples then he prays for everyone "that believes in Him through their message" John 17:20-21 That all of them may be one, verse 17:21 This is the foundation laid by Christ. It includes all peoples and nations.

You're starting to sound like veteran "man made doctrines"

I get a kick out of people that insist that promises concerning salvation are said to not be applicable to certain people because God or Jesus wasn't speaking to you or your particular secular group. What next? white power, black panthers, Zionist? I love the way dispensation fans the flames of segregation LOL

So others know, I actually agree with what Rex said here.

It appears that those on Dispensationalist doctrines of men (i.e., man-made doctrines), have this particular problem of discarding Scripture they see was addressed only to those Jesus was speaking to in person. That's often used as an excuse to disregard our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse He gave through His disciples in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. A major reason why Dispensationalists do that is because they do not... want their congregations to understand our Lord Jesus was giving the very order of events leading up to His second coming and gathering of His Church. In other words, what He taught in His Olivet Discourse goes directly... against the Dispenationalist's Pre-Trib Rapture theory.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Veteran .... are you saying that if God told Noah to build a big boat on dry land we should do the same ?

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Some doctrines just seem to be assumed. There is no real biblical support for them, but they continue to be perpetuated regardless of their lack of Scriptural backing. I believe the doctrine of illumination falls into this category. Let me briefly explain this doctrine and then give some reasons why I believe this doctrine to be dangerous and unscriptural. Unless viable support can be given to this doctrine, I think it would be wise for us as Christians to stop claiming it as a basis for our beliefs. Perhaps then we can all develop a more humble and gracious attitude when debating our views and doctrines.

Defining Illumination
Illumination is the belief that the Holy Spirit enables Christians to come to a correct understanding of the Bible. It seems that nearly every Christian believes this. It is seen on this site daily where people argue that they have the correct doctrine because the Holy Spirit reveals it to them or because He informs their understanding of certain passages. While I agree that the Holy Spirit does work in the believer when they study and live out the Scriptures, I strongly disagree that the Spirit gives believers a correct understanding of the Bible. This view is derived from a Calvinist perspective of total depravity that suggests that the Spirit has to quicken the mind of the unbeliever and guide them in all truth as an unilateral act. Thus, darkened sinners are acted upon and the Spirit enlightens them, gives understanding, teaches, opens eyes so they will perceive the truth of God. Without this act, man is blind to truth, but with this act, man is illuminated and knows the truth that comes from God.

Most are probably nodding their head to this previous paragraph. Some are even thinking of verses that support this idea. We can discuss those verses as they are brought up. In my estimation, there are a number of faults with this view.

1. If illumination is true, inspiration is meaningless. Scripture is inspired. It is important to understand that if the doctrine of illumination is true, then inspiration is meaningless. Why would the Holy Spirit inspire the Bible and protect its truth if that truth can only be transmitted via divine implanting through a means other than the text itself? Over and over again Scripture indicates that its inspired words can be understood by believers and non-believers alike and are inspired in a way that the words themselves can produce life. John writes, "These things have been written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name." Thus, John is assuming that these words he has written contain the ability in their message to bring someone to faith so that a person might find life. If illumination were true, it would be the unilateral act of the illuminating Spirit that gives life and truth. John suggests his words contain truth and life and that an unbeliever can read them and believe (or disbelieve). As one author put it, "If man cannot understand the written word, then God's revelation and inspiration have failed."

2. If illumination is true, studying the Bible is pointless. The Bible clearly instructs us to meditate on the Word and study to show ourselves approved so we can divide it correctly. However, this instruction is meaningless if illumination is true. If God is injecting truth in us via illumination, then what is the point of studying? Each Christian should just be able to grab his or her Bible and glance at a verse and receive a Spiritual insight with no need for study, knowledge of historical backgrounds, contexts, author's intent, word studies or anything else. All study is meaningless if illumination is true.

3. If illumination is true, then there would be no disagreement among believers. If the Spirit is providing each believer illumination for a correct understanding of the Bible, then why do Christians disagree? Well, there can only be two options. One, only a small number of Christians actually have the Spirit (and they agree on all doctrines...so its a VERY small number!). Certainly the Spirit would not mislead anyone or send mixed messages. The other option is that the Spirit is sending conflicting messages and God himself is the source of Christian division. Certainly not! I choose to argue that the doctrine of illumination is false. I think this is the case not only because there are clearly very strong believers that disagree on doctrines, but the Apostle Paul even wrote about how believers should respond when in disagreement on various beliefs. Why would Paul give such instruction if the Spirit is guiding people into a universal truth on matters of Scripture?

4. If illumination is true, then believers would never change their minds on their views of Scripture. I believe it is clear that the Bible teaches that Christians will grow and mature. As they mature they will change their views on various doctrines and perspectives on Scripture. This is unacceptable when someone holds to the doctrine of illumination. Which view was the illumined view? Everyone who believes in this doctrine claims they are being illumined in their understanding of the Bible. However, when someone changes their mind on a passage, they quickly claim that the Spirit opened their eyes to the verses! So does this mean they weren't illumined before? You see the difficulty...everyone is illumined by the Spirit unless they change their mind...then its the Spirit doing the changing. Very convenient, but not very theologically sound.

5. If illumination is true, then teachers are pointless. It is clear that God gives the Spirit to empower some to teach. Well, if the Spirit is the one providing inner illumination so a person can have a correct understanding of the Bible, then there is no need for pastors, teachers, preachers, or anything else. Listening to a teacher would be a lack of faith in God's teaching via the illumination of the Spirit within. Some argue that the passage in 1 John testifies to that fact that these believers do no not need anyone to teach them. Understanding this verse contextually reveals that this has nothing to do with inner illumination of Bible verses. Clearly we need teachers or God would not give the gift of teaching!

I would contend that the Holy Spirit is active in helping the believer. However, this activity is not in ensuring a correct understanding of the Bible. I believe He inspired the Bible so it could be understood and that God has the ability to communicate with man through the written word without additional injections of illumination. The Spirit works to assist the believers will. The word is plain and can be understood by those who study and show themselves approved. This is why the Bible is inspired...so anyone can understand it. The Spirit works to soften and change the will so people will not merely "know" the truth, but to respond to and apply the truth in their daily lives. Thus, believers on this site need to stop arguing that God has "revealed" the truth of a passage to them and those who disagree do not listen to the Spirit. The Spirit is not speaking to interpret the words he already spoke in the Bible. No, the Spirit speaks to us to help us remember and live out those words in our daily thoughts, words and actions. The Spirit's work is inspiration and sanctification...not illumination!

Perhaps you mean Enlightenment to the Truth, thy Word oh LORD is Truth? And the Bible says that when you have been anointed of the Holy Spirit of Truth you are ABLE to receive the Word of Truth which is Christ's image.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made

partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him

to an open shame.
KJV
1 John 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the

same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
KJV

1 John 5:6-7
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV

The life of a man is in the blood, this does not mean you only die when your blood is absent for you can die in your sleep without loosing a single drop. It means the spirit of a man resides in our blood for our dna is our bloodline and the Spirit of life and the Word of life that are in a true believer is of our Father's, making us children of God. You can not be of God without His Word and Spirit indwelling you and this is the enlightenment.... for the Spirit nor the Word will teach you to be contrary to Truth for that would be anti-Christ.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Perhaps you mean Enlightenment to the Truth, thy Word oh LORD is Truth? And the Bible says that when you have been anointed of the Holy Spirit of Truth you are ABLE to receive the Word of Truth which is Christ's image.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made

partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him

to an open shame.
KJV
1 John 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the

same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
KJV

1 John 5:6-7
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV

The life of a man is in the blood, this does not mean you only die when your blood is absent for you can die in your sleep without loosing a single drop. It means the spirit of a man resides in our blood for our dna is our bloodline and the Spirit of life and the Word of life that are in a true believer is of our Father's, making us children of God. You can not be of God without His Word and Spirit indwelling you and this is the enlightenment.... for the Spirit nor the Word will teach you to be contrary to Truth for that would be anti-Christ.

Do you give blood?

 

[veteran]

Veteran .... are you saying that if God told Noah to build a big boat on dry land we should do the same ?

That question doesn't even make sense and is completely irrelevant.

The doctrine of men you're heeding, i.e., Dispenationalism, has no problem disregarding Scripture where our Lord Jesus was revealing to His disciples the signs to come for the very end of this world, especially when that Scripture disagrees with what those doctrines of men teach, like the fly away secret Pre-trib rapture theory.

Yet they will use many other... Scriptures where Jesus was speaking directly to His disciples and apply them as Christian principles.

It's just another easy way to know how those men deceive, you just haven't recognized it yet.

An example? Do those Dispensationalists keep The Lord's Supper in their congregations? Yes. But why, since Jesus was with His Apostles at the last supper and was directly addressing them? Those men behind Dispensationalism are false, and have the 'don't do as I do, do as I say' attitude.