I'm appealing to all of you,

[BarneyFife]

I'm not unaware of your thinking regarding me. My entire walk with Christ has met almost nothing but people who wish to remain immature, and don't show any love of the Truth.

Flies, honey, vinegar.

 

[BarneyFife]

There are giants in the land and the voice of many is that of fear of those giants. But those who Know Jesus and trust in the providence of God know that no matter what they can do to us Not a hair of our head shall perish (Luke 21:18)

The LORD showed me in 2007 my fate, and how I would be betrayed and those events are occurring currently.... i could cower in fear or let the Holy Ghost lead me and Speak for me when that time comes. My Hope rests in the providence of God, not the will of man, He is in Control, His will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Refusing Jabs is a death sentence for me. They are murdering those who will not take the jab right now only you are not hearing about it because the less fortunate are the ones that are being murdered. (read link as an example)

Unvaccinated Colorado woman who was denied kidney transplant shares story on 'Fox & Friends First' | Fox News

This is nothing more than state sponsored murder akin to what the Nazi's did with the unhealthy, and no one is raising a voice on this, and next it will be the "healthy" who refuse this.

Pray for the LORD to make His presence known and for the return of the King of Kings....

God Bless

Holding up anomalies is never a good way to evaluate trends.

 

[Wynona]

Naomi,

I'm not unaware of your thinking regarding me. My entire walk with Christ has met almost nothing but people who wish to remain immature, and don't show any love of the Truth.

Almost all, who have had some type of experience with Jesus, have gotten detoured by thinking they should be part of an organized institutionalized "church", which is evil from top to bottom. And there their growth is stunted. 30 years later they are no better off than from the day they got born again.

Hear me out. I give them all the benefit of the doubt that they are born-again christians (though many only think they are because they were moved by a persuasive argument, perhaps also fueled by an emotional atmosphere. That is NOT the definition of a Christian, which is nothing less than a new species - a born again spirit). I will not belavor this paragraph. It would become dozens of pages long.

But what I can do is recognize and point out spiritual immaturity, which is everywhere. The entire New Testament epistles could be summarized as saying to the Body...'Grow up! Stop being children! Stop being immature! Put off those childish ways and become spiritual adults in Christ!'

The idea that the saints should go into a mortgage and buy a building site and a building and blaspheme and call that the Lord's church, is evil. God does NOT dwell in buildings made by men's hands.

The idea that tithing is something the saints have to do is evil. Not only was tithing on only a certain part of Israel (those whose livelihoods were from agrarian and husbandry, thus first fruits of the land and animals -- something that can only come from God Himself, and not man-made. He created the animals and gives the seed and causes growth in crops) but many professions were not ordered to tithe, i.e. Carpentry, crafts makers, weavers, fishermen and many other occupations in Israel did not tithe at all. But it is taught as a law in these organizations, when Christ died to set us free. But if you wish to live according to law, then Christ is of NO benefit to you. And if you are going to practice law, then cursed be he who fails to do ALL that is written in the law. The man who practices the law, shall live by it!

The true believer does not give God 10%. He gives Him 100%. We were bought with the Lord's blood. We are not our own! We give freely from our lives to do His work on earth, until He returns. DAILY.

Putting the people in debt to a mortgage and administration is evil. The people do not have a clue about discipleship which is a daily practice, they do not meet in homes and enjoy one another's company breaking bread together and having true fellowship, and God forbid if somebody actually wants manna from heaven (Jesus fellowship from another saint) on a daily basis, they have to starve all week long until Sunday, and perhaps Thursday evening, where they get to sit in a room and listen to some guy not talk about the Cross of Jesus and how to glory in that, nor how to crucify their self so that the Holy Spirit can lead and be in command of their lives, and why not? Because it would not fill seats. And they don't know the truth of this teaching themselves. So the spiritually immature saints still go on starving. These "teachers" want a paycheck and then lie to the "flock" that they are commanded to tithe (BIG LIE) and they love their fleshly charged music atmosphere to try and make people feel good, because they know nothing about death to self, and allowing Christ to be Head. Only in name. Only lip service.

I'm keeping this extremely short and I'm already up to 9 paragraphs.

I do in fact advise people to leave the organizations and learn of Christ direct. Nothing but good will come of it. If people do not know people like me, who will love on them and labor night and day until Christ be formed in them, they will go it alone, but they are not alone.

Have you ever read this?

1 John 2:26 I write this to you about those who would deceive you;
1 John 2:27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.

You see, Naomi, the function of a teacher, is to teach you, that God will teach you. In the beginning of the new saint, they have only known flesh their whole life. But now they are spiritual beings, and have to be instructed how to put their pants on one leg at a time, spiritually speaking. And the disciple is laboring to wean the student OFF of himself and always more onto Christ. He is fostering the young disciple's relationship with Christ, to lean ever more on Jesus direct. And when accomplished, then he is told, "Now go do for others as I have done for you." 1 to 3 years it takes, if the commitment level is there.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.'

And this one, too:

Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Judgment begins in the House of the Lord, and when the 2 prophets show up on the scene, you can betcha the so-called church is going to hate those guys.

I think you do not like my tone (Yes, I know I can come across as harsh), but if you examine the truth, and are a truth seeker, you will be led to the same position I am at.

So now, everybody on this site will despise me because of this post. This is what Jesus said to Peter when Peter told Him that the Pharisees (man-made, organized "churches") took offense at Him:

Matt 15:14 Leave them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

If any have ears when I write, they will hear. Not my words, but the Lord Jesus' words through me.

You bring up valid criticisms of the modern church. For a couple of years, my husband and I couldn't find one that was full of truth and we were searching and visiting the whole time.

I do think that I have grown spiritually quite a bit in those years that I didn't go. But I still desired the fellowship of a church and of other believers.

I do see a lot of churches misusing tithing and a lot of churches refuse to give their congregations meat but keep things at milk level.

I do believe its better to not go to church than to be under false teaching.

I love the church my husband and I go to now but if my husband wanted us to not go to a church, I think I'd be more at peace with that than I used to be.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

OP: I'm appealing to all of you? "To ALL to have LOVE Of The Truth"?
& "The Body of CHRIST to be concerned about Every member"?

Precious friends, have you prayerfully and Carefully Considered?:

(1a) To believe and understand The Gospel Of GRACE, Which
Includes God’s Doctrine of HIS ALL-Sufficient BLOOD, For
today? Or:
(1b) To Confuse This with yesterdays' dispensation's gospel of the
kingdom?
(1c) Would obedience to 2 Timothy 2:15 Vanquish the Confusion,
so we can ALL reach the world In UNITY (Eph 4:3-6; 1 Co 1:9-10)

{Can you imagine that? } ​

(2a) To understand and believe God's ONE Baptism For Today,
Under GRACE? Or:
(2b or not 2b) Confused with yesterdays' dispensation of water
baptism?
(2c or not 2c) that obedience to 2 Timothy 2:15 would Vanquish
the Confusion, so we can teach ALL new-born babes In CHRIST,
The Truth to LOVE?

(3a) To understand That ALL The Law Is Fulfilled In "ONE WORD:
LOVE thy neighbor as thyself..." (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)

(3b) To Confuse This with yesterdays' dispensation of Law of
works {613 or 10?}, which God Says "Must NOT be Mixed Up"
Causing Cancellation (of The Truth To LOVE?)? (Rom 11:6)

(3c) Would obedience to 2 Timothy 2:15 Vanquish the Confusion,
so we can get BUSY With God's Concerns "For the LOST to be
Saved," AND for "The Body of CHRIST is to be concerned about
Every member" (Romans - Philemon)?

INSTEAD of: "being Puffed Up, Biting And Devouring one another,"
because of our Erroneous "thinking ABOVE What Is WRITTEN"?:

1Co 4:6 "And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred
to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us

NOT TO THINK ABOVE THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN,

that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

Conclusion: Should we ALL not First do What God Has Done?:

"I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy HOLY
Name for Thy LovingKindness and for Thy TRUTH: for Thou
Hast MAGNIFIED Thy WORD Above All Thy Name!"
(Psalms 138:2)

Would not this begin our journey To "LOVE Of God's Truth"?
So, ALL, what think ye?
--------------------------
More on 2 Timothy 2:15 "...making ALL see What Is The
"Fellowship Of The MYSTERY..." (Ephesians 3:9):

God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery
"Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY

 

[NewMusic]

You bring up valid criticisms of the modern church. For a couple of years, my husband and I couldn't find one that was full of truth and we were searching and visiting the whole time.

I do think that I have grown spiritually quite a bit in those years that I didn't go. But I still desired the fellowship of a church and of other believers.

I do see a lot of churches misusing tithing and a lot of churches refuse to give their congregations meat but keep things at milk level.

I do believe its better to not go to church than to be under false teaching.

I love the church my husband and I go to now but if my husband wanted us to not go to a church, I think I'd be more at peace with that than I used to be.

And it's not even my desire to write the book that can be written about all the evils of institutionalized christianity. Only when prompted do I respond with a few of the things I wrote.

My objective and usual manner of working with brethren I disciple is to show them the Way. The Light and Christ Himself, do the job.

Once, about 15 years ago, I was beginning discipleship with a college girl and she would travel 200 miles as often as she could on various weekends to come back to St. Louis to be in my company and learn whatever she could.

Being a new believer (she had been brought up in a Christian home, but when I began to show her things it made her wake up) and my giving her the living Christ in our interaction, and she got filled with the Holy Spirit and was speaking in tongues (all new to her and she was so excited), she wanted to be around as many Christians as she could. She wanted to share what she was learning and hear from others too. So she joined up with 5 different Christian groups on her campus: Campus Crusaders, College Disciples for Christ, and 3 others, whatever their names.

Another older Christian sister called me to alert me that this young college sister was joining up in all these different Christian groups, worried, and wanted me to know about it.

I told this older sister "That's good."
She responded, "Huh? What do you mean?"
I said, "She needs to taste the poison".
The older sister was dumbfounded by my response.

A couple weeks later, the college girl came back home and we met up and she starts telling me the "horrors" of her experience with all these different Christian groups. I was grinning on the inside.

She went on to explain, "Group A did not want to hear anything about the Holy Spirit and the wonderful experience of praying in tongues! They dismissed it, and said it should not be talked about in a group meeting!"

"Group B did not want to talk about the book of Revelation at all! They said it had no practical value for the Christian walk! I could not believe what I was hearing!!!!"

"Group C... this"

"Group D ... this"

She experienced firsthand the death of those groups. They had no life whatsoever in them. Her experience with them was the best teaching that could happen.

When the saints come together, there is supposed to be a communion of Jesus. A sharing of life, revelation, and you just can hardly get enough of it from one another when it is the true Lord that each person is experiencing.

1Co 14:26 What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
1Co 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.
1Co 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.
1Co 14:30 If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent.
1Co 14:31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged;

The true beauty of true fellowship, as outlined there by Paul.

It's not "the man of the hour" standing on a platform in front of a pulpit, and everyone else is forced to listen to his dissertation. BORING! And most of the time wrong, and not in league with what the Holy Spirit has for the saints at that time.

When God is truly running the show, the saints listen, and then are led, guided by Him to do what He wants done. Prayer is truly the most wonderful and epitome of knowing Christ. Nothing is as good as that. Then there's waiting on the Lord. Learning His voice (this is huge for young believers who need as much training and practice as you can give them). Remember, the self's soul still wants to assert itself and be master, but you must ever crucify the soul, so that the Holy Spirit can lead.

When, if ever, did you participate with others in the way that I just wrote? Actually what Paul wrote.

I'm not boasting. I'm instructing. I want so much to engage with each and every one of you on this website in similar fellowship. I still hope we can, somehow, someday soon. And the Lord might give us something really cool to do, or for one another.

Time is running out.

LAST COMMENT: For those who think you are ready for what is coming (I read some comments on here that asserted words like "I'm ready! Bring it on!"), well, you really do not know what you think you know. Sitting in the comfort of your home in front of a computer, typing bold, brave words.

The greatest, perfect model, about to undergo the greatest torture ever (The Cross, followed by descending into hell) JESUS CHRIST, prayed to God the Father three times that the cup might pass over Him if the Father would find or allow some other way. Jesus was not looking forward to the torture. He did not want to go through with it, if the Father would grant His request. Jesus sweated blood, freaking out over what He knew He was about to undergo (pardon my language), but some here think they are ready for whatever comes?

 

[NewMusic]

Cool Footnote:

Did all of you see the Star Wars movies? Those obviously are not about Jesus, BUT

BUT there are no greater movies illustrating discipleship than those movies. Allow me to explain.

Young Luke Skywalker has never heard of "The Force", and the older disciple Obie Wan, begins to make Luke aware and begins to teach him how to walk by this "Force". Luke has to be instructed about everything.

And we see in some of the movies, Yoda was teaching a bunch of kids how to use the light saber, and training them too, on how to "trust the force".

Yoda told Luke in the 1st movie (episode #4) 1976, "Being a Jedi Knight requires the utmost discipline!", and was training Luke how to lift the craft out of the water. Day in, day out. Training, training, training.

You see the Jedi Knights interacting, "feeling the force", trying to understand their mission.

When Luke is flying his X-wing fighter toward the center of the death star, he can hear Obie Wan's voice saying to him, "Trust the Force, Luke" and Luke puts away the mechanical guidance scope and goes in to shoot at the target, trusting his way.

And it's a pagan set of movies!

But those Star Wars movies illustrate better than any Christian movies I have ever seen, how discipleship is supposed to work.

 

[Naomi25]

Naomi,

I'm not unaware of your thinking regarding me. My entire walk with Christ has met almost nothing but people who wish to remain immature, and don't show any love of the Truth.

Good sir….I’m not sure how you can “be aware” of my thinking regarding you. As I said, I have not directly interacted with you before. In point of fact, I have only read one other thing you wrote…it was a brief post. I did not comment on it, but rather made a comment against a person who attacked you. And so, thus far, I have had NO thinking regarding you, for you to be aware of.

But, if I might extend a thought now…? If you begin most conversations by suggesting that anyone who does not agree with you or see eye to eye are wishing to remain ‘immature’ and don’t show ‘any love of the truth’…then I would guess that you probably don’t get a lot of conversation in a friendly, open manner. A conversation forum is not a soapbox for you to preach ‘your truth’ in. If you feel you truly have the correct interpretation of God’s word…as many people here do, I might add (correctly or incorrectly), then you must attempt to show it by discussing it, posting bible passages to support your ideas…and by being open to have conversations (which include answering peoples questions) with those you disagree with. If you can’t agree to those things, you should probably just have a blog.

.
Almost all, who have had some type of experience with Jesus, have gotten detoured by thinking they should be part of an organized institutionalized "church", which is evil from top to bottom. And there their growth is stunted. 30 years later they are no better off than from the day they got born again.

“Detoured”. Paul certainly doesn’t think joining a Church is being ‘detoured’.

Hebrews 10:25
[25] not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Please…explain to me why I ought to take your advice over the Apostle Paul’s?

.
Hear me out. I give them all the benefit of the doubt that they are born-again christians (though many only think they are because they were moved by a persuasive argument, perhaps also fueled by an emotional atmosphere. That is NOT the definition of a Christian, which is nothing less than a new species - a born again spirit). I will not belavor this paragraph. It would become dozens of pages long.

I am quite happy to ‘hear you out’.
It’s kind of you to ‘give them the benefit of the doubt’, especially since you can know the heart of none of them. Is it not best we leave that sort of thing up to God, and worry only about ourselves?
I do not disagree that the state of many ‘Churches’ is a worry today. But, let us be plain about terminology. Indeed, buildings are only that, and while we are inclined to call each individual gathering a ‘church’, the Church is universal, Christ’s body. And within that body, you will find many, many faithful AND mature Christians, even within these ‘church’ gatherings that seem to be wobbling off the rails. Often you will find that these mature Christians STAY in these places in order to steady them, bring them back to sound doctrine and wise council. As Christians our first instinct should not be to abandon ship and leave the heathens to their fate. No! We’ve been promised by Christ that the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church. So, we need to stay as long as we can, being salt and light…bringing as many people to Christ as we can, if indeed there are people in that ‘church’ who did not truly know him or had many erroneous, unbiblical beliefs.
And no, of course God does not ‘dwell in buildings’. But his people must meet somewhere, no? I have nothing against, necessarily, house churches…people meeting in smaller groups like that…but the smaller nature of homes does somewhat restrict the number of ‘brothers and sisters’ you might come to know and fellowship with. This is often why buildings are bought and used. And if done for the furthering of the gospel, then no…it is not evil. It’s not anything…it, like anything else, is just a tool, to be used for or against our walk and for the glory of God. It strictly depends on how its being used. Which, again, depends on each, individual ‘church’.

.
The idea that tithing is something the saints have to do is evil.

The true believer does not give God 10%. He gives Him 100%. We were bought with the Lord's blood. We are not our own! We give freely from our lives to do His work on earth, until He returns. DAILY.

Once more, I both agree, and disagree. If we are talking about the principles of the “prosperity gospel”, where there is a demand to give, give, give…in order to get from God and to be accepted by the rest of them….indeed…evil.
Outside of that? 10% is, perhaps, law, and to be left with the law. But…David did look upon the precepts of the law as sweet, as wonderful. Under grace, we don’t look at things as “we have to do them” in a lawful way. We look at things that we CAN do, that we GET to do.
You are correct in saying that everything we are, and everything we own, belongs to God. So…those who have plenty of money should feel pleased to offer it to God’s work…be that missionary work, be that charity work, be that for supporting widows, orphans and women not getting abortions. That sort of work. Those who don’t have money will have talents…they should offer those to God…we all should. That can be a tithe in and off itself.
So, no, not all tithing is evil. We see it in Acts, in the beginning of the Church. So…to convince me it, in itself, was evil, you would need to provide scriptural evidence against that.

I do in fact advise people to leave the organizations and learn of Christ direct. Nothing but good will come of it. If people do not know people like me, who will love on them and labor night and day until Christ be formed in them, they will go it alone, but they are not alone.

Have you ever read this?

1 John 2:26 I write this to you about those who would deceive you;
1 John 2:27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.

You see, Naomi, the function of a teacher, is to teach you, that God will teach you. In the beginning of the new saint, they have only known flesh their whole life. But now they are spiritual beings, and have to be instructed how to put their pants on one leg at a time, spiritually speaking. And the disciple is laboring to wean the student OFF of himself and always more onto Christ. He is fostering the young disciple's relationship with Christ, to lean ever more on Jesus direct. And when accomplished, then he is told, "Now go do for others as I have done for you." 1 to 3 years it takes, if the commitment level is there.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.'

And this one, too:

Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Judgment begins in the House of the Lord, and when the 2 prophets show up on the scene, you can betcha the so-called church is going to hate those guys.

Nothing you have advocated for here cannot be done in a ‘church’ setting. There is nothing here that demands it must be done outside of a ‘church’ setting and in a one on one setting.

Yes, I do believe judgment will come more harshly upon those ‘shepherds’ who have done falsely. And there are many. But there are also many, many who are true, who strive correctly and faithfully. And no, being a truth-seeker will not automatically lead me to the same position you sit in. That assumes you must, in all your opinions, be correct. You have not shown that, or convinced me. Indeed, my own experience in my own ‘church’ proves you wrong. In fact, in my life as I’ve moved a few times, I’ve been in a couple of ‘churches’ that would prove you wrong. If you were overwhelmingly right, chances are I would have come across a lemon, no?

.
So now, everybody on this site will despise me because of this post. This is what Jesus said to Peter when Peter told Him that the Pharisees (man-made, organized "churches") took offense at Him:

Matt 15:14 Leave them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

If any have ears when I write, they will hear. Not my words, but the Lord Jesus' words through me.

Once more, hearing is not the issue. Being told that if they disagree, then they’ve disregarded the Lord…that’s an issue. Particularly since…when I’ve been told as many things with certainty, as you’ve done here…I like it with a good bit more exegetical proof, rather than just ”here’s what this verse means”. No hard feelings, I just prefer to hear directly from God. You know?

 

[farouk]

Good sir….I’m not sure how you can “be aware” of my thinking regarding you. As I said, I have not directly interacted with you before. In point of fact, I have only read one other thing you wrote…it was a brief post. I did not comment on it, but rather made a comment against a person who attacked you. And so, thus far, I have had NO thinking regarding you, for you to be aware of.

But, if I might extend a thought now…? If you begin most conversations by suggesting that anyone who does not agree with you or see eye to eye are wishing to remain ‘immature’ and don’t show ‘any love of the truth’…then I would guess that you probably don’t get a lot of conversation in a friendly, open manner. A conversation forum is not a soapbox for you to preach ‘your truth’ in. If you feel you truly have the correct interpretation of God’s word…as many people here do, I might add (correctly or incorrectly), then you must attempt to show it by discussing it, posting bible passages to support your ideas…and by being open to have conversations (which include answering peoples questions) with those you disagree with. If you can’t agree to those things, you should probably just have a blog.


“Detoured”. Paul certainly doesn’t think joining a Church is being ‘detoured’.

Hebrews 10:25
[25] not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Please…explain to me why I ought to take your advice over the Apostle Paul’s?


I am quite happy to ‘hear you out’.
It’s kind of you to ‘give them the benefit of the doubt’, especially since you can know the heart of none of them. Is it not best we leave that sort of thing up to God, and worry only about ourselves?
I do not disagree that the state of many ‘Churches’ is a worry today. But, let us be plain about terminology. Indeed, buildings are only that, and while we are inclined to call each individual gathering a ‘church’, the Church is universal, Christ’s body. And within that body, you will find many, many faithful AND mature Christians, even within these ‘church’ gatherings that seem to be wobbling off the rails. Often you will find that these mature Christians STAY in these places in order to steady them, bring them back to sound doctrine and wise council. As Christians our first instinct should not be to abandon ship and leave the heathens to their fate. No! We’ve been promised by Christ that the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church. So, we need to stay as long as we can, being salt and light…bringing as many people to Christ as we can, if indeed there are people in that ‘church’ who did not truly know him or had many erroneous, unbiblical beliefs.
And no, of course God does not ‘dwell in buildings’. But his people must meet somewhere, no? I have nothing against, necessarily, house churches…people meeting in smaller groups like that…but the smaller nature of homes does somewhat restrict the number of ‘brothers and sisters’ you might come to know and fellowship with. This is often why buildings are bought and used. And if done for the furthering of the gospel, then no…it is not evil. It’s not anything…it, like anything else, is just a tool, to be used for or against our walk and for the glory of God. It strictly depends on how its being used. Which, again, depends on each, individual ‘church’.


Once more, I both agree, and disagree. If we are talking about the principles of the “prosperity gospel”, where there is a demand to give, give, give…in order to get from God and to be accepted by the rest of them….indeed…evil.
Outside of that? 10% is, perhaps, law, and to be left with the law. But…David did look upon the precepts of the law as sweet, as wonderful. Under grace, we don’t look at things as “we have to do them” in a lawful way. We look at things that we CAN do, that we GET to do.
You are correct in saying that everything we are, and everything we own, belongs to God. So…those who have plenty of money should feel pleased to offer it to God’s work…be that missionary work, be that charity work, be that for supporting widows, orphans and women not getting abortions. That sort of work. Those who don’t have money will have talents…they should offer those to God…we all should. That can be a tithe in and off itself.
So, no, not all tithing is evil. We see it in Acts, in the beginning of the Church. So…to convince me it, in itself, was evil, you would need to provide scriptural evidence against that.


Nothing you have advocated for here cannot be done in a ‘church’ setting. There is nothing here that demands it must be done outside of a ‘church’ setting and in a one on one setting.

Yes, I do believe judgment will come more harshly upon those ‘shepherds’ who have done falsely. And there are many. But there are also many, many who are true, who strive correctly and faithfully. And no, being a truth-seeker will not automatically lead me to the same position you sit in. That assumes you must, in all your opinions, be correct. You have not shown that, or convinced me. Indeed, my own experience in my own ‘church’ proves you wrong. In fact, in my life as I’ve moved a few times, I’ve been in a couple of ‘churches’ that would prove you wrong. If you were overwhelmingly right, chances are I would have come across a lemon, no?


Once more, hearing is not the issue. Being told that if they disagree, then they’ve disregarded the Lord…that’s an issue. Particularly since…when I’ve been told as many things with certainty, as you’ve done here…I like it with a good bit more exegetical proof, rather than just ”here’s what this verse means”. No hard feelings, I just prefer to hear directly from God. You know?

Hi @Naomi25 Yes, sometimes a purported dialogue can actually be a monologue....

(I myself have to remind myself of this possibility....)

 

[Naomi25]

Hi @Naomi25 Yes, sometimes a purported dialogue can actually be a monologue....

(I myself have to remind myself of this possibility....)

I have my husband for that….
Only…he likes to get onboard…what do you call that? A duo-logue?

 

[farouk]

I have my husband for that….
Only…he likes to get onboard…what do you call that? A duo-logue?

@Naomi25 ....Like the Qantas /Ansett duopoly that didn't work out...?

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 ....Like the Qantas /Ansett duopoly that didn't work out...?

Don’t Know that I’ve heard of that, lol!

 

[NewMusic]

Hebrews 10:25
[25] not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Please…explain to me why I ought to take your advice over the Apostle Paul’s?

I addressed this elsewhere, but you must not have read it.

And not that it matters, but it was not Paul who wrote the book of Hebrews. In a couple places the author says "somewhere it says this". Paul, having been a Pharisee, knew the scriptures backwards and forwards. He would have known where the verses sited in that letter were written.

Instead of me explaining to you what that passage is about, how about I ask you a question?

I gather you believe you are living under a covenant of grace, correct?
And that covenant of grace says you are no longer living under laws and rules (Paul did write this in Colossians and Galatians, and elsewhere) correct?

So if your interpretation of Hebrews 10:25 is correct, how do you reconcile your contrary beliefs?

 

[NewMusic]

The other stuff you wrote Naomi, makes me sigh.

Another simple question:

Can I or any Christian go into one of these meetings you advocate for and get up and share revelation, teaching, a song, an exhortation, interact in the group meeting?

Remember, 1 Corinthians 14:26-31 which I already cited at post #205?

And,

Out of the mouths of babes, Thou hast brought forth perfect praise.

Are these silenced, too?

Can Christians have fellowship and share and teach, or are they confined to shut up during the "meeting" and only Pastor D. Zaster can talk?

 

[Wynona]

The other stuff you wrote Naomi, makes me sigh.

Another simple question:

Can I or any Christian go into one of these meetings you advocate for and get up and share revelation, teaching, a song, an exhortation, interact in the group meeting?

Remember, 1 Corinthians 14:26-31 which I already cited at post #205?

And,

Out of the mouths of babes, Thou hast brought forth perfect praise.

Are these silenced, too?

Can Christians have fellowship and share and teach, or are they confined to shut up during the "meeting" and only Pastor D. Zaster can talk?

Does tongues and interpretation count? At my church, anyone at any time can speak in tongues out loud for the whole congregation to hear followed by an interpretation by anyone who has the interpretation.

 

[amadeus]

Does tongues and interpretation count? At my church, anyone at any time can speak in tongues out loud for the whole congregation to hear followed by an interpretation by anyone who has the interpretation.

"If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." I Cor 14:27-28

But then also a clarifying question might be, Where and/or what is the "church"?

 

[Naomi25]

I addressed this elsewhere, but you must not have read it.

No, I’m afraid I don’t have time to read every post, sorry.

.
And not that it matters, but it was not Paul who wrote the book of Hebrews. In a couple places the author says "somewhere it says this". Paul, having been a Pharisee, knew the scriptures backwards and forwards. He would have known where the verses sited in that letter were written.

No one is quite aware of who wrote Hebrews; perhaps it was Paul, perhaps it wasn’t. But considering how OFTEN Paul speaks about those who gather together…about the manner in which they ought to, or ought not to, I think my question still remains, no? You would have to rip out a good portion of all Paul’s letters if you decided gathering together as a body was no longer any good or relevant.

.
Instead of me explaining to you what that passage is about, how about I ask you a question?

I gather you believe you are living under a covenant of grace, correct?
And that covenant of grace says you are no longer living under laws and rules (Paul did write this in Colossians and Galatians, and elsewhere) correct?

So if your interpretation of Hebrews 10:25 is correct, how do you reconcile your contrary beliefs?

Failing to answer a question by asking a question is a cop-out. Don’t make this about me, because at this stage, it is not. You started a thread making claims…so…this is about you and your claims. So, YOU prove what you are claiming. And so, my question to you is valid and deserves an answer. How do YOU explain the fact that the NT authors spend so much time encouraging believers and teaching believers on HOW they are to meet together? You must explain why you first feel it is at all appropriate to ignore…nay…reject all of those encouragements and teachings.

 

[NewMusic]

No, I’m afraid I don’t have time to read every post, sorry.



No one is quite aware of who wrote Hebrews; perhaps it was Paul, perhaps it wasn’t. But considering how OFTEN Paul speaks about those who gather together…about the manner in which they ought to, or ought not to, I think my question still remains, no? You would have to rip out a good portion of all Paul’s letters if you decided gathering together as a body was no longer any good or relevant.


Failing to answer a question by asking a question is a cop-out. Don’t make this about me, because at this stage, it is not. You started a thread making claims…so…this is about you and your claims. So, YOU prove what you are claiming. And so, my question to you is valid and deserves an answer. How do YOU explain the fact that the NT authors spend so much time encouraging believers and teaching believers on HOW they are to meet together? You must explain why you first feel it is at all appropriate to ignore…nay…reject all of those encouragements and teachings.

Ok, MS. Naomi.

FIRST - Where did you ever get that I was against fellowship? I never said that. I never implied that. So how about you back up your accusation.

 

[Naomi25]

Ok, MS. Naomi.

FIRST - Where did you ever get that I was against fellowship? I never said that. I never implied that. So how about you back up your accusation.

You’ve come on fairly strongly against ‘organised’ religion. That’s a fairly general term, and covers pretty much every sort of gathering together that isn’t just independent house church groups. So, perhaps if that is not what you mean, you could clarify a bit. While you answer the question you still haven’t. Do you have a problem answering it? It’s a pertinent question, don’t you think? One you ought to be able to answer if you stand against ‘organised religion’, which is still undoubtably gathering together in fellowship, regardless of how YOU might categorise it. So…it still must be answered.

 

[NewMusic]

You’ve come on fairly strongly against ‘organised’ religion. That’s a fairly general term, and covers pretty much every sort of gathering together that isn’t just independent house church groups. So, perhaps if that is not what you mean, you could clarify a bit. While you answer the question you still haven’t. Do you have a problem answering it? It’s a pertinent question, don’t you think? One you ought to be able to answer if you stand against ‘organised religion’, which is still undoubtably gathering together in fellowship, regardless of how YOU might categorise it. So…it still must be answered.

Look, if you are incapable of differentiating organized religion from what Jesus did with His disciples, then you should not be engaging in writing on Christian boards. I made myself clear on every post I have written.

 

[Naomi25]

Look, if you are incapable of differentiating organized religion from what Jesus did with His disciples, then you should not be engaging in writing on Christian boards. I made myself clear on every post I have written.

You have said, “clearly”:

.I have no hope in organized religious churches. None. But if you are above that, you see yourself as joined to Christ the Head, and all others who are born again (and hopefully filled with the Holy Spirit) are your spiritual brothers and sisters, see past yourself and your immediate locale, then give yourself to this idea of helping the saints. All people, always, everywhere, must be vetted. You cannot judge people simply by a few things you hear and your feelings. Even your best Christian friends must be tested. You think you know somebody for 30 years, but the relationship was never truly tested, and then under the right circumstances that person betrays you, stabs you in the back, does not stand up with you or for you like you had thought they would.... growing pains.

But to get you started, and be honest now, do you think there's even one, even one!, of these types of churches, who use their time on Sunday to talk about what I just wrote, let alone all the other days throughout the week? Do they listen to all the brethren and discuss the political climate and what is happening right under their noses and take heed to all the solemn warnings Jesus said regarding the end days? Is this even remotely on their list to talk about? How to prepare, escape, survive, help others who are "not tithing members" nonsense? Ha..

.Almost all, who have had some type of experience with Jesus, have gotten detoured by thinking they should be part of an organized institutionalized "church", which is evil from top to bottom. And there their growth is stunted. 30 years later they are no better off than from the day they got born again.

.
Hear me out. I give them all the benefit of the doubt that they are born-again christians…
I do in fact advise people to leave the organizations and learn of Christ direct. Nothing but good will come of it. If people do not know people like me, who will love on them and labor night and day until Christ be formed in them, they will go it alone, but they are not alone.

So, to recap. You think ‘organised religions’ are evil, although, your specifications on what ‘organised’ has not truly been spelled out; any group that comes together under any sort of ‘organisation’ would fit the bill, no?

That people, all people, even your best friends, though they claim to be ‘Christian’ need to be “tested” and “vetted”.

You think none of these ‘churches’ (which again, shows your non-specificity with this terminology) are teaching what YOU deem to be most important, message wise.

You believe that those gathering together in these “organised church buildings” (which again, fits the largest mega-church to the smallest country church) are detoured by evil and have had their growth stunted and are immature.

And, finally, YOU, magnanimous and all-knowing that you are, are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are saved…even though you have said that even your best friend must be ‘vetted and tested’, and that you would still advise them to leave where they are so that they may be taught by some personage such as yourself. Except, if they can find no such person “they will go it alone”.

So, definitions. You accuse me on “not knowing the difference between organized religion from what Jesus did with His disciples“. Except, that’s never been what we’ve been speaking of, is it? You’ve been ragging on ‘organised religious gatherings’…which we can see from your writings above, covers just about most Christian gatherings, especially given your lack of specificity.
The fact is, I didn’t ASK you about what Jesus did with his disciples. I asked you why you are dismissing everything after the gospels in regards to the gathering together of the Body? Because we DON’T see in all the epistles a continuation of what Jesus had with his Disciples - small bands of one on one, even one on 12, roving about. If you wanted to get really specific, Jesus had many more Disciples than the 12, they were just his inner circle. Jesus was really a mega church (for his day) doing a touring show.
So the problem, for you, and the question, still very much remains. Why do you believe you can justify striping away all those sections of scripture that speak of believers gathering together, at the same place, on the same day, at the same time, with rules and regulations to order that gathering? And you do understand what ‘rules and regulations’ mean, right? It was an organised structure.

Because at present, with you dodging the question repeatedly, it sounds VERY much to me that you either can’t answer, or your answer is: because you want it to be whatever NewMusic wants it to be, and scripture hasn’t really come into it. Or reality.

You may truly believe you have ‘God’s truth’….but it would be madness…total and complete madness, for people, such as myself, to skip along behind some random guy like yourself, just because you’ve said so. For anyone who has even a small love and respect for the inerrancy and truth of God’s word…we must always start and end back there. Which is why I am demanding you answer the question. It shouldn’t be a hard question…unless you’ve done that chopping from scripture.