Johann
Well-Known Member
Stun has no right nor power to "hand anyone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh"...that excousia was only given to the apostles, and not a "mantle" to be passed on.
Imputation is based on the Old Testament
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So excellent. Thank you.
It’s like the first wobbly steps of a baby then falling over and over again until muscle develops.
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Continuing the analogy between water and the Spirit.
Water is a liquid. It takes the form of the container it enters into.
The Holy Spirit also takes the form of the container it is poured into.
Water is also something WE can be immersed in. Because we have lungs that breathe air, however, we can't survive long in the water as an environment. But we can go in and out of the water and be wet for a time as a testimony that we have been immersed in water...or else that water has been poured onto us.
The Spirit is also something we can be immersed in. God says...I will POUR out My Spirit on all mankind. The environment of the Spirit is the kingdom realm of heaven...and we are fully adaptable to this environment (unlike the water environment). Within that environment is found an eternal kind of life.
Is water a person? No.
Is the Spirit a person? No...but it is a means by which God's presence is conveyed to us.
Many people today carry cellphones. They can remain in contact with people throughout the day...speaking to people that are far away...as if they were right next to them.
Likewise the spirit in a person that has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit can hear from God...as if He was with us in close proximity. Just like a cellphone.
Is the cellphone a person? No. It is a connection to a person.
The same goes for the Holy Spirit.
Water is a liquid. It takes the form of the container it enters into.
The Holy Spirit also takes the form of the container it is poured into.
Water is also something WE can be immersed in. Because we have lungs that breathe air, however, we can't survive long in the water as an environment. But we can go in and out of the water and be wet for a time as a testimony that we have been immersed in water...or else that water has been poured onto us.
The Spirit is also something we can be immersed in. God says...I will POUR out My Spirit on all mankind. The environment of the Spirit is the kingdom realm of heaven...and we are fully adaptable to this environment (unlike the water environment). Within that environment is found an eternal kind of life.
Is water a person? No.
Is the Spirit a person? No...but it is a means by which God's presence is conveyed to us.
Many people today carry cellphones. They can remain in contact with people throughout the day...speaking to people that are far away...as if they were right next to them.
Likewise the spirit in a person that has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit can hear from God...as if He was with us in close proximity. Just like a cellphone.
Is the cellphone a person? No. It is a connection to a person.
The same goes for the Holy Spirit.
Not exactly. You take a good stab at it, but miss the mark on several fronts... try a different approach. (and I don't mean back-stabbing).
You seem to be interchanging the concept of oil (for anointing) and water (for baptizing) -- news flash! They don't mix.
Yes, water can be poured upon you- but that's not anointing. Yes, if either are poured upon you, you feel the effect (wet) but it's not the same effect. You'll never read in scripture about someone being anointed with water-- this is your own idea. Water is for cleansing. And the water of baptism is a concept that points toward death, cleansing, and rebirth-- being born of water, like when you emerged from the womb. It's symbolic ritual- but that's what it is for. Repentance and a new start.
Finally- yes water can be poured on you. Yes, you can be immersed in water. Here's a third point of emphasis-- The same water can be in you. In fact-- it's essential to have a little in you, and it's essential that you have it replenished for as long as you remain alive, and without this replenishment you will die. And water, as a scriptural concept is spirit.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
What pride and arrogance! The typical response when you are put up against the wall with a firing squad, is to use defense mechanisms. Yours is to attack our intellegence ... questioning " reading skills" ... "look up the words" ...
I'm an author, I know how to read and look up words.
My opinion is you have not been baptized by the Holy Spirit. Many confessed Christians go through life who have not been "born again", baptized by the Holy Spirit. You have avoided speaking about Him and in one instance denied His existence. Instead _ to YOU, the Spirit is this invisible essence of truth that flows out of the Father and the Son, an attribute that flows out of them and into us, an impersonal quality if you will. The Holy Spirt is a person Who communes with us and until you acknowledge that and ask for Him, I doubt He will grace you with His presense or guide you into all truth.
But you got your Bible, a Greek to English dictionary, and you approach scripture armed with this knowledge. You wing it on your own and feel your intellegence alone is adequate and anyone who opposes you doesn't know how to read and look up words ... "they just don't understand what I do". Lol, the Lone Ranger.
That is how dead spiritual scholars do it. We don't need a teacher when we have the Holy Spirit Who gives discernment.
Baptism does mean immersion into, as being immersed into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Then you will be immersed into righteousness. Then you will start to get things right!
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
Yup Ronald, some really bad doctrines flooding in.
If they can't attack the message, the messenger is under attack, using skillful worldly sophistries.
Take heart and stay strong in Christ.
J.
I have to say, in all honesty, you do crank up pretty fast sometimes and latch onto pieces without really pondering the whole of what someone’s trying to say. It’s a shriekiness in defense of how you think someone’s mind absolutely MUST perceive of God. It is not some jaw dropping horror for a man to not be able to perceive of a spirit as a person. And I mean, logically and mentally, a spirit is not a person. A human being is a person.
So it’s not good to shriek at a person that they MUST conceive of spirits as persons and MUST make their mind work like yours and shriek that they absolutely CANNOT have Gods Spirit if they cannot make their mind wrap around or insist that spirits are persons or people.
And look, Epi is just a man, like you. Is him suggesting you aren’t making optimal use of your reading skills any worse of a dig than your earlier one of stupid is as stupid does? No, it isn’t. So you accusing him of arrogance with his dig and excusing your own dig is kind of putting your finger on the scale to make it weigh in your favor regarding this.
The problem is, that when you hold someone up as a prophet (you did) and when that someone promotes themself as an overseer (he does) and teacher (he is) it invites extra scrutiny. You get a higher level of examination when you purport to be on this higher path.
When you claim to be walking as Jesus walked and you think you are talking as Jesus talked, there better be some figs falling from that tree that is you. When you teach about oil, there better be some burning in you. And when you teach about water—- well, can you really walk as Jesus walked?
Or is it all hubris and pretense? You often rush to his defense, —this is admirable as a friend, but together the two of you dismiss and diminish the observations and experiences of all other who interact here. People see something and it’s not what you see.
If the Spirit is an impersonal vessel, how come the Bible says we can grieve the Spirit (Ephesians 4:30)?
We can make the Spirit jealous (James 4:5).
The Spirit groans and intercedes for us(Romans 8:26).
Thats also a good verse to examine.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession.
Paul wrote the 'Spirit Himself'. How can it be an impersonal vessel?
Unless I missed it, I don’t think he ever said the spirit is an ‘impersonal vessel.’ He just said it is not a person, and depending upon how one thinks of personhood and how one defines it, that could be explained farther.
I actually like what he said regarding ‘the means by which God’s presence is conveyed to us’ though not only His presence, but His power. It’s the mechanism through which He empowers us to accomplish anything on His behalf.
It’s a conveyance, like transmission lines carry power, while the Father is the Power itself. We are His little energized bunnies having some degree of inner power that was given to us, but it’s not any sort of High Voltage energy that can come from Him when He chooses to convey it upon and within us.
We are the vessels, that contain and rely upon the filling of spirit.
Maybe impersonal vessel isn't right. I don't think the Spirit is flesh and blood like we are. But I do think the Spirit is personal in that He feels emotions like we do.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Another verse....
Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Separate now for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.
Act 8:29 Then the [Holy] Spirit said to Philip, Go forward and join yourself to this chariot.
Act 10:19 And while Peter was earnestly revolving the vision in his mind and meditating on it, the [Holy] Spirit said to him, Behold, three men are looking for you!
said. Since the Holy Spirit is said to speak, the Holy Spirit must be a person. Act_8:39, *Act_10:19; *Act_11:12; *Act_11:28; Act_13:2-4; Act_15:28; Act_16:6-7; Act_20:22-23; Act_21:4; Act_21:11; Act_28:25, +*Isa_65:24, +*Hos_6:3, Luk_3:22 note. 1Co_12:11, 1Ti_4:1, Heb_3:7.
join thyself. Act_5:13, Luk_15:15.
Shalom
J.
It really has created problems that don’t need to exist when groups of men have got together and decided things like that every man absolutely MUST think in his mind in the exact way they say he must about Gods Presence. If some men cannot make their mind conceive of the ineffable Presence of God as a person, it is not good to insist that because their mind cannot do it that they must be kicked out or hung or slaughtered.
A very bad turn was taken there.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Correct again sister....
The Definition of Person
By “person,” we mean one who has their own identity or individuality as a rational being. They are conscious of their own existence.
When we say that the Holy Spirit is a person some assume that He has eyes, feet, and hands. But these are not the marks of a person. The marks of a genuine person are knowledge, feeling, and will.
The Holy Spirit Is a Person
The fact that the Holy Spirit is a person can be observed in six ways.
He has the characteristics of a person.
He acts like a person.
He is treated as a person.
He has the ministry of a person.
He is mentioned in connection with other persons.
He is the Third Person of the Trinity, and therefore, is personal.
We will now consider the personality of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit Has the Characteristics of a Person
The Scriptures attribute to the Holy Spirit characteristics that only a person can truly possess. He is portrayed as a thinking being, a being who has a mind, an emotional being, and a volitional (or choosing) being.
The Holy Spirit Is a Thinking Being
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit has the intellectual capacity to think and know. These are the marks of personhood.
The Apostle Paul wrote to the church at Corinth about this aspect of the Spirit of God. He put it in this manner.
But we know these things because God has revealed them to us by his Spirit, and his Spirit searches out everything and shows us even God’s deep secrets. No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10, 11 NLT).
Although no human being can understand the mind of God, the Bible says that Holy Spirit is able to do this. The Holy Spirit thinks, searches, and uses reason. These things imply personality. In fact, the word translated, “search” is the same one used by Jesus in John 5:39 where He said the following to the religious leaders.
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you possess eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me (John 5:39 TNIV).
The word has the idea to, “examine or investigate.” Since the Spirit is said to “search all things” this implies personality. He searches the deep things of God and reveals them to believers.
The Holy Spirit Has a Mind
Scripture also says that the Holy Spirit has a mind. When he wrote his letter to the Romans the Apostle Paul spoke of the “mind of the spirit.”
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God (Romans 8:27 TNIV).
The word “mind” has the idea of thought and purpose. These are attributes of personality.
The Holy Spirit Is an Emotional Being
The Holy Spirit not only thinks like a person. He has feelings like a person. We can give the following examples.
He Can Give and Receive Love
The Holy Spirit can give and receive love. Paul wrote to the Romans of the love of the Spirit.
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in earnest prayer to God on my behalf (Romans 15:30 NRSV).
The love of Christ can be shown through the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit Can Be Grieved
He also can be affected by the acts of others. He can be grieved. Isaiah the prophet wrote.
Then the Lord’s people turned against him and made his Holy Spirit sad. So he became their enemy and attacked them (Isaiah 63:10 CEV).
The Holy Spirit is grieved by sin. The fact that He can be grieved demonstrates personality. Indeed, one cannot grieve an influence or an impersonal force.
The Holy Spirit Can Be Insulted
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit can be insulted. The writer to the Hebrews said.
How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:29 NASB).
He responds emotionally the way that a person responds. Again, this is a sign of personhood.
The Holy Spirit Has the Ability to Choose
After listing the various gifts of the Spirit such as wisdom, knowledge, miracles, and prophecy, Paul links them to the Holy Spirit who gave them. However the Holy Spirit not only gives the gifts, He gives them according to His will. The fact that the Holy Spirit has a will to choose shows personality. Paul wrote.
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills (1 Corinthians 12:11 NASB).
Notice that the Spirit distributes these gifts according to His will.
The idea that the Holy Spirit has a choice is consistent with the character of God. James uses the same word “chose” to describe the will of God the Father. He wrote.
Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures (James 1:18 NKJV).
Just as God the Father has a will, so does God the Holy Spirit.
These attributes are consistent with personhood. Therefore, we see that the characteristics ascribed to the Holy Spirit–thought, a mind, feelings, choice–are attributes of a person.
The Holy Spirit Acts like a Person
The deeds that the Holy Spirit performs are deeds that only a person can do. His acts and dealings are not those of an impersonal influence or force. There are a number of examples of this.
The Holy Spirit Can Teach
The Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit teaching. Paul wrote.
And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13 NRSV).
It is the Spirit of God who teaches believers in Christ.
Is the Holy Spirit a Person? by Don Stewart
Don Stewart :: Is the Holy Spirit a Person?
www.blueletterbible.org
I myself have only grown less sure about the nature of the Godhead as time goes on. Hopefully no one sends a hitman for me.
I think that regardless of how much we feel we understand or don't understand about God, that we just think in the same terms the Bible does.
This is a great verse to tell us about the Holy Spirit. He Himself intercedes for us! I'd ask further, to Whom? Jesus is our Advocate, the Holy Spirit our Intercessor, are we to try to parse these rolls between them? And then go on to wonder that we are "dividing up God"? Intellectual analysis trying to gain a "holistic" understanding of the Godhead isn't the right way to go in my opinion.
I think the answer is to keep it simple. If the Bible tells us to not sadden the Holy Spirit, whether that makes sense to me or not, that's the way I'm going to organize my mind. That the Holy Spirit is a Someone, because He can become sad.
But personally I think that merely presents the reality, that He is in fact a Person, the Holy Spirit Himself.
And that He is our Intercessor, with Whom does He intercede if not the Father? He prays for us, to the Father. There's a great thought to meditate on! The Holy Spirit prays for you and me!!
The point being, whether or not it "makes sense to me" how the Bible speaks, that's the way it speaks, so that's the way my thoughts should speak. And for me that works very well, to the extent that I can be consistent!
Much love!
Johann
Well-Known Member
Yes, well, I think that’s actually good!
If anyone thinks that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know… 1 Cor 8
I mean, you know, if you want to bring the Bible into it.
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