In Daniel 8, 11, and 12, is A4E meant? Or is a future anti-christ meant?

[Davidpt]

There'll be no more answers until you admit that neither @Spiritual Israelite nor I have ever claimed that the 70th week ended in 70 AD.

You two might not be doing that intentionally, yet you are still doing it if all of verse 27 involves the 70th week and that you have the end of verse 27 meaning 70 AD. That logically adds up to that the 70 weeks concluded in 70 AD if the entire verse 27 is meaning the beginning and ending of the 70th week. But once again, the way you all are trying to get around that is by being intellectually dishonest with the text by claiming verse 27 only involves up to the middle of the 70th week rather than the entire week. Anyone being intellectually honest with the text is not even remotely going to insist that some of what is recorded in verse 27, it is not involving the 70th week, it is involving events after the 70 weeks finished earlier in history. Which means, though verses 25 and 27 combined are supposed to add up to 70 weeks total, yet some of you have it adding up to 69 and 1/2 weeks total instead. On no calculator can you add 69 and 1/2 together and that it then equaling 70.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You two might not be doing that intentionally, yet you are still doing it if all of verse 27 involves the 70th week and that you have the end of verse 27 meaning 70 AD. That logically adds up to that the 70 weeks concluded in 70 AD if the entire verse 27 is meaning the beginning and ending of the 70th the week. But once again, the way you all are trying to get around that is by being intellectually dishonest with the text by claiming verse 27 only involves up to the middle of the 70th week rather than the entire week. Anyone being intellectually honest with the text is not even remotely going to insist that some of what is recorded in verse 27, it is not involving the 70th week, it is involving events after the 70 weeks finished earlier in history. Which means, though verses 25 and 27 combined are supposed to add up to 70 weeks total, yet some of you have it adding up to 69 and 1/2 weeks total instead. On no calculator can you add 69 and 1/2 together and that it then equaling 70.

Well, I agreed. Here is the breakdown of the 70 weeks that we all can agree: 7 + 62 + 1. With the 1 being the final covenant week.

The way I see how they dishonestly handled Daniel 9:26-27. There is no way biblically that they can break down the final covenant week of verse 27 and apply the "sacrifice and the oblation" and "overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" to the desolation of verse 26. And based on this misinterpretation, Spiritual Israelite believe the "consummation" was fulfilled in 70AD. No, this do not make sense at all. That is why their preterism doctrine, whether partial, full, hyper, etc., is all wrong.

 

[covenantee]

Then you and SI believe that Daniel's 70 weeks did not end in 70AD? But when exactly did the consummation take place in verse 27?

I asked because SI wrote in his post, "Daniel 9:26-27 is about the physical destruction of Jerusalem and the temple buildings. The consummation refers to the consummation of that event.

This made it sound like the 70 week ended at the consummation, which he believed was in 70AD. How about you?

The consummation took place in 70 AD, after a 36 year final interval of God's mercy beginning in 34 AD, which was the end of the 70th week.

It's not new news.

 

[covenantee]

You two might not be doing that intentionally, yet you are still doing it if all of verse 27 involves the 70th week and that you have the end of verse 27 meaning 70 AD.

Are you on hallucinogens as well?

Who said that all of verse 27 involves the 70th week?

 

[TribulationSigns]

The consummation took place in 70 AD, after a 36 year final interval of God's mercy beginning in 34 AD, which was the end of the 70th week.

It's not new news.

Now you admit that the 70th week ended in 70AD?

 

[covenantee]

Now you admit that the 70th week ended in 70AD?

Comprehension-challenged. No question about it.

"beginning in 34 AD, which was the end of the 70th week"

Get some help for yourself.

 

[Davidpt]

Are you on hallucinogens as well?

Who said that all of verse 27 involves the 70th week?

Certainly not you nor @Spiritual Israelite , nor am I saying you are, nor have I ever been saying that. Because if you think I have, speaking of comprehension needing to be checked, it equally applies to you then. I'm coming from this perspective, that, if in reality verse 27 is the entire 70th week, and if someone has the last portion of that verse involving 70 AD, that logically means they have the 70 weeks ending in 70 AD, per this scenario.

But let me be clear here. If, in reality, all of verse 27 does not pertain to the 70th week, then that means you don't have the 70 weeks ending in 70 AD in that case. That my argument is moot in that case. My argument is only valid, if in reality verse 27 is meaning the entire 70th week. One thing about reality and the truth, though. If in reality something is true that someone denies is true, that hardly makes it untrue then. It's only untrue, whatever it might be, if it is actually untrue to begin with. Nothing true can ever be untrue just because someone might refuse to believe it's true.

My position is, verse 27 pertains to the entire 70th week. By you and others insisting the 70 weeks ended in 34 AD or whenever hardly makes my position untrue, if in reality my position is true.

You would think if the 70 weeks ended 2000 years ago there would have been a call for a celebration at the time. Except no one was celebrating anything at the time if some of you have it ending during Stephen's stoning. Not to mention, if the 70 weeks already finished 2000 years ago, this should mean that everyone that holds that view, they all agree with one another what day and year it ended and what made that day in particular significant.

Not to mention, look what else is contradicted in verse 24 per your view.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression

Take note of this part---are determined upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression. And if that was fulfilled before 70 AD then someone lied to us in this verse since this verse says once the 70 weeks are fulfilled, the transgression upon the holy city is finished. So why did 70 AD happen to the holy city if the transgression concerning it was finished 40 years earlier? Some of you have things backwards as usual. The correct order is this. The holy city is destroyed first, then later on, meaning after all of verse 27 has been fulfiled, the transgression upon the holy city is finished.

Not to mention, unless you and others are blind or something, the holy city is once again back on the map and that it is not the church occupying that region, it is unbelieving Jews occupying that region. Obviously then, the transgression upon the holy city is not quite finished.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Comprehension-challenged. No question about it.

Not at all...because you said...

"beginning in 34 AD, which was the end of the 70th week"

34 AD?! Seriously? Show me the Scripture—oh wait, you can’t, because you just pulled that out of thin air. You even slap a “consummation” date on it like you’re selling prophecy on clearance. Verse 27? You butchered it. It has nothing to do with Jewish sacrifices or a physical temple/city in 34 AD—or 70 AD for that matter. The consummation is the Last Day, when Christ returns for His Church—the very ones He confirmed the covenant with. And yes, the sacrifice and abomination of desolation in that same verse are pointing squarely to the New Testament Church. End of story.

Get some help for yourself.

Get some help for yourself"? Please. You’re the one in desperate need of help from the Lord, because your doctrine is just as warped as Spiritual Israelite - - date quibbles or not. And thanks for chiming in, because you’ve only confirmed what I’ve been saying all along: any amillennialist sprinkled with a dash of preterism is living in a full-blown delusional fantasy land.

 

[Davidpt]

34 AD?! Seriously? Show me the Scripture—oh wait, you can’t, because you just pulled that out of thin air. You even slap a “consummation” date on it like you’re selling prophecy on clearance. Verse 27? You butchered it. It has nothing to do with Jewish sacrifices or a physical temple/city in 34 AD—or 70 AD for that matter. The consummation is the Last Day, when Christ returns for His Church—the very ones He confirmed the covenant with. And yes, the sacrifice and abomination of desolation in that same verse are pointing squarely to the New Testament Church. End of story.

Speculation is all they have in this case, not Scripture. Nowhere in all of verse 27 does it give the impression 34 AD is meant by this---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Except I almost forgot, but not really though, they don't have that part ending in 34 AD to begin with, they have that part ending in 70 AD. IOW, apparently they think some of us are naive enough to believe with them that the end of the 70th week is not also recorded in verse 27, that verse 27 only recorded the first half of the 70th week. So much for context then, may as way throw that out the window that context matters. The context of verse 27 is the 70th week except not all of it is pertaining to the 70th week. Go figure.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Speculation is all they have in this case, not Scripture. Nowhere in all of verse 27 does it give the impression 34 AD is meant by this---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Yeah....

Except I almost forgot, but not really though, they don't have that part ending in 34 AD, they have that part ending in 70 AD. IOW, apparently they think some of us are naive enough to believe that the end of the 70th week is not also recorded in verse 27, that verse 27 only recorded the first half of the 70th week.

They tend to apply or link the desolate of verse 27 back to the desolations of verse 26, thinking they are one and the same while ignoring the confirmation of a covenant that separates verse 27 from 26. Crazy interpretation.

 

[covenantee]

34 AD?! Seriously? Show me the Scripture—oh wait, you can’t, because you just pulled that out of thin air.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Yes, I'm sorry. I forgot that you don't believe in actual physical time. It's all hallucinatory virtuality to you.

So pick a date, any date. They're all pulled out of thin air.

Except that time can't be gnosticized, no matter how hard you try.

For those still in the real world, when you add 490 to 457 BC, you get 34 AD.

 

[TribulationSigns]

So pick a date, any date. They're all pulled out of thin air.

Sorry to disappoint you. I’m not a date setter.

Except that time can't be gnosticized, no matter how hard you try.

LOL!!

 

[covenantee]

I’m not a date setter.

Of course. That's because there is no date applicable to a decapitated orphaned undetermined 70th week.

 

[covenantee]

Nowhere in all of verse 27 does it give the impression 34 AD is meant by this---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Who says
"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate"
has anything to do with 34 AD?

 

[Earburner]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that since it's clear to me that Daniel 9:24-27 only has to do with the people of Israel and the consummation of the judgment God made against them with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.


We are both Amils, so we do agree on what 2 Peter 3 means in terms of it occurring after the symbolic thousand years when Jesus returns, but I just don't see Daniel 9:27 as referring to that since Daniel 9:24-27 is a prophecy specifically relating to Israel.

I do understand your position in Dan. 9:27.

So then, let's entertain both scenarios being proposed as consummation #1 for 70AD and consummation #2 for in the future.
Already we have a problem. There is only ONE time period for "THE consummation".
However, lets move on.
In the time of a "consummation" #1 in 70AD., or that of a "consummation" #2 in the future, it is an attempt to discern between the two views that shall cause one to choose the reality of what was "determined" in verse 24, as to what exactly it was that God shall POUR OUT upon the desolate in verse 27. Was it His Grace or was it His  Wrath?

To make a wrong choice is to eliminate one of two views, because there is only ONE view of what God means by: "EVEN until [upto] THE consummation" [the singular act of God].

OK, now that we know that there is only ONE total "consummation", being that of 2 Peter ch. 3, let's move on.
In verse 27, did God mean:
1. His Grace of the Holy Spirit was poured out, beginning on Pentecost in 1 AD.?
or did He mean:
2. His Wrath was poured out on Israel as a nation in 70 AD.

I dare say that none of us today can change, ignore, or eliminate choice #1 of the Holy Spirit being poured out on the desolate. Acts 2:15, 10:45.
Therefore, since choice #2 was never an option of total consummation in God's Mind, we must stop entertaining it as such and accept it to be so, that God's singular act of total consummation is still looming in the future (2 Peter ch. 3), and that no other act of consummation took place during His Age of Grace in 70 AD.

There is no such thing as a partial, little consummation in 70 AD.
However there is still to come THE ONLY consummation, as shown in 2 Thes. 1:7-10 and 2 Peter ch. 3, whereby even the heavens and the earth will be vaporized, aka consumed by fire.

 

[Lizbeth]

Part 3: Problems with the Antiochus Interpretation

Problems with Identifying the Vile Person as Antiochus IV Epiphanes

Many traditional interpreters identify the vile person in Daniel 11:21 as Antiochus IV Epiphanes. However, this view presents major problems:

1. No Clear End for the VP:
Antiochus is never clearly said to "come to his end." Unlike the tax-raiser in v.20, the vile person receives no death or downfall—unless v.45 is referring to him.

2. Verse 45 Describes a Cataclysmic End:
Daniel 11:45:
"And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."
This sounds far more apocalyptic than Antiochus' mundane death from disease.

3. Daniel 8 Places the Vision in the Time of the End:
Daniel 8:17 – "for at the time of the end shall be the vision"
Daniel 8:26 – "shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days"

These verses explicitly say that the events of Daniel 8 pertain to the end times, not ancient history.

4. The King in Daniel 8:23–25 Opposes Christ:
"He shall stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."
Antiochus IV died over 160 years before Christ was born. He cannot possibly have stood against Christ in any literal way.

5. Thematic Continuity with Daniel 12:
Daniel 12 continues the narrative, again tied to "the time of the end" (12:4, 12:9). The "king" must therefore be the same eschatological figure.

The early church in the time of the Apostles considered that they were living in the time of the end that had been prophesied (end of the old covenant era and Israel's existence as a nation). I suggest researching the history of events leading up to the 70AD destruction/desolation and see if any of Daniel's prophecies fit there. Especially since Jesus Himself when He was warning and prophesying to Israel referred to Daniel in connection with what was soon to happen:

Mat 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mar 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

I've heard that the Jewish historian Josephus is a good source and perhaps there are other sources. And beyond that I'd be watching to see if that serves also as a pattern for events leading to the end of this world. (The scripture says there would be tribulation and anguish upon those who do evil, of the Jew first, then the Gentile.....and that Israel is our ensample.)

 

[amigo de christo]

You may not know this, but you have been given your understanding according to the Scofield rendition of the 70 weeks, that has taken an "upperseat" within the fundamentalist churches since the 1960s.

C. I. Scofield - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

While what you just wrote sure seems to be the case ,
always remember that most churches who cliam to be fundamental
ARE NOT fundamental at all .
They are fundamental to the indoctrination of men is what they are my friend .
IT is bible time in the house for all who name the name OF CHRIST to learn and to grow
by the SPIRIT of GOD within the sheep .

 

[amigo de christo]

The early church in the time of the Apostles considered that they were living in the time of the end that had been prophesied (end of the old covenant era and Israel's existence as a nation). I suggest researching the history of events leading up to the 70AD destruction/desolation and see if any of Daniel's prophecies fit there. Especially since Jesus Himself when He was warning and prophesying to Israel referred to Daniel in connection with what was soon to happen:

Mat 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mar 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

I've heard that the Jewish historian Josephus is a good source and perhaps there are other sources. And beyond that I'd be watching to see if that serves also as a pattern for events leading to the end of this world. (The scripture says there would be tribulation and anguish upon those who do evil, of the Jew first, then the Gentile.....and that Israel is our ensample.)

Good morning my dear sister .
The scripture sure does say this .
As we are warned to learn the scripture and not do the evil they lusted after .
For years by grace , some of us have been reading our bible .
And you wanna know what i see when i read their examples they were doing RIGHT before GOD destroyed them .
I SEE much of christendom doing exactly as they too had once done
and just like back then , the many loved to hear the smooth things
and the wicked did not repent of his wickedness for them false ones promised them life .
THEY had totally put under foot the covenant of GOD
AS DO many now today put under foot the NEW covenant of CHRIST in favor of a sin accepting
REAL BROAD path to GOD which darn sure NEGATES the dire need to BELEIVE ON CHRIST .
IN EFFECT making it of anti christ . And the same thing
THEY promise them peace , peace
JUST as today they holler THIS is the road and the way to attain world peace . LIKE AN IDENTICAL PATTERN .
What befell Jersualem
NOW is all over Christendom . The falling away is real and its massive now in number .

 

[amigo de christo]

What year was the Messiah cutoff ?

Sounds like you have a gap between the Messiah cutoff and 70 AD.

I have a far more important question .
What year is CHRIST coming back to CUT OFF and remove the wicked from amongst the sheep .
Well the answer is no man knows the day nor hour
BUT IT IS QUITE NEAR indeed , SEEING all the signs i see going on within both the world and much of christendom.
May i suggest its high time for us to get back into the bible to learn for ourselves that which most no longer truly teach .
THE RIGHTLY DIVIDED TRUTH .
I say this with much urgency seeing that In a day and an hour known to no man
THE DOOR GONNA SHUT and all outside gonna wail .

 

[amigo de christo]

Now you admit that the 70th week ended in 70AD?

What shall occur in the week and in the day and hour
WHEN CHRIST cometh is a real good and needful reminder for us all to hear .
So lets allow this please .
THE MASTER of the HOUSE shall arise and close THE DOOR
and all outside are gonna wail and wail and wail .
Seeing we ought to desire the death of NONE
We might want to get real busy preaching THE ONLY NAME that can save, CHRIST JESUS
and with upmost urgency reminding any and all OF the dire need to BELEIVE ON HIM to be saved .
And letting the world and christendom know , HE AINT the minstir of sin at all . NEVER has been, never will be .
So if ones jesus seems to be accepting of sins , IT AINT JESUS at all its the cloaked in wool version that satan would preach
in order to seduce this people to the day of their own damnation and perdition .
IT really is and it really has been bible time in the house . As i am sure you do agree my friend .