Wrangler
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I don't use NWT.
The translations I prefer are CEV, NLT, VOICE, and ESV. Sometimes I go to NOG or CJB or even NRSV.
In our image..
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Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The translations I prefer are CEV, NLT, VOICE, and ESV. Sometimes I go to NOG or CJB or even NRSV.
Wrangler
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Wrangler
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Right, he is an agent for the Savior, God.
So, how come you cannot answer any questions, like who is the savior, the one who pulled you out of the water or his commander who sent the ship to rescue you?
Wrangler
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I'm sorry Jesus isn't your Savior. He is mine. There's only one Biblical Savior.
Isaiah 43
11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
DanielConway
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4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’
who was, and is, and is to come.”
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Note the following. Both the Father and the Lamb have divine authority over history, the Father to ordain it and the Lamb to reveal it. Both the Father and the Lamb have the right to occupy the Throne, the seat of Divine authority. And FINALLY, both the Father and the Lamb receive praise and worship from the highest order heavenly Throne room host.
Response Please?
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’
who was, and is, and is to come.”
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Note the following. Both the Father and the Lamb have divine authority over history, the Father to ordain it and the Lamb to reveal it. Both the Father and the Lamb have the right to occupy the Throne, the seat of Divine authority. And FINALLY, both the Father and the Lamb receive praise and worship from the highest order heavenly Throne room host.
Response Please?
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Wrangler
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No. Thomas is not making a statement but an exclamation. When I drop my toast, butter side down, I am not actually claiming it is feces.
I realize the psychological desperation you must feel. Claiming the Bible says "Jesus is God" and the best you can do is find a guy seeing Jesus raised from the dead, exclaiming "My God." Still, I've asked you 2 questions several times and I'll put them here for your convenience.
- If you are a drowning man, you saved you; the man who pulled you out of the water or his commander who ordered the ship to rescue you?
- Yes or no, does your Bible say Jesus is a servant of God?
For it is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—the God of all our ancestors—who has brought glory to his servant Jesus by doing this. This is the same Jesus whom you handed over and rejected before Pilate, despite Pilate’s decision to release him.
Acts 3:13 NLT
Wrangler
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Agreed. You just don't like that the Bible does not say the only savior is Jesus. The only Savior is God, who is NOT Jesus. The only savior is Jesus' God, YHWH. You are slowly catching on.
I alone am Yahweh,
and there is no savior except me.
Is 43:11 NOG
Wrangler
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Have you ever made an exclamatory statement that is not literally true? Many say in the sack, "Oh my God. Oh my God" but they do not mean their partner is literally God. ;)
You're preaching JW doctrine. But if anyone swallows YOUR POISON that Jesus isn't THE Savior, their blood is on your hands, not mine.
Wrangler
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Friend, you just quoted Scripture and I whole heartedly agree with it. You are the one who has invented a doctrine that is POISON and contradicts Scripture. This is why you cannot bring yourself to answer my 2 little questions. See Cognitive Dissonance.
BTW, I am not JW.
Wrangler
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What asking questions that you are terrified to answer so have to resort to personal attack? LOL What a joke.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Let me see now...
If "christian forums", didnt allow people to fight endlessly about. :
1.) The Trinity
2.) Predestined Elect
3.) OSAS, or the inverse version : "yes you can lose your salvation"
4.) You must keep commandments..
Then its quite possible that 98% of the people who use these forums would not have anything to say.
Reader, the fact is...you believe what you were taught, from a Pulpit, from a Commentary....or etc.
You are a product of a teacher, and some fo them are devil led deceivers.
Hebrews 13:9.
So, if you belong to what Mainline Protestant Denoms categorize as a Cult, then there you go.
If you are a hard line Calvinist, then you were taught to be one.
If you are asked by a stranger if you are a "Christian", and you respond....""Yes'.... Im a Catholic, Baptist, Calvinist, Assembly of God, Methodist, JW, Mormon, ...... Lutheran, Presbyterian..... Word of Faith..... United Pentecostal,""""
Well, they didnt ask you that.... They asked you if you are a CHRISTIAN.
You gave them the wrong answer.
Think on that....
I'll show you how the bible teaches the Trinity, but first, do remember that if your faith is going to be grown by God then you have to live in this verse, Hebrews 13:9 as your faith.... and you have to get past doubting or simply not believing that God who saved you, can't keep you saved unless you get in on it with some self effort and self righteousness.
See, as soon as you start adding YOURSELF to God's "GIFT of Salvation" you just broke away from it., and fell from it.
Paul calls this faith melt down "falling from Grace".
If you believe you can lose your salvation, then that is you.
That's a fact.
==================================================
Ok,
God said let us make man in """OUR"""" Image.
So, who is the "our"? ???????
Is it God and the Angels? No, as the Angels are not made in God's Image. Man is made in God's image - likeness.
However, ...There was no man in Heaven when God created Adam on earth, so the "our" can't be God and some human.
So who is left? Who else is up there PRE-ADAM that God would say is "OUR", talking about Himself and THEM?
Look at John 1 for the Answer.
Its the "WORD."
And who is that?
Look at 1 Timothy 3:16. the WORD, from John 1, was made Flesh.
How many is that in Heaven, before one of them is "made flesh"?
= 2.
See that? That is the "OUR". That is God the Father, who is A Spirit, and the Pre-Incarnate WORD, who become Christ JESUS the Savior SENT from GOD.
If GOD SENT someone, then that is God + the ONE He sent.
There is your "OUR image".
Did you do the math? As it's = 2. "'OUR Image"
Now here is where it gets mystical.....
Ready?
God SPOKE Creation into Existence, and JESUS is the WORD..
See that?
Take a good look.
What does God SPEAK? He speaks words......and you read them....and JESUS pre-incarnate is the WORD, with no body, as He got His body inside a Virgin's womb.
Remember?
Now, You have the WORD who is GOD and God the Father who SENT the WORD, who is manifested in the world, and who is 2nd THE part of the "OUR".
= Thats 2.
Add the Holy Spirit, and you have 3.
Now, read as many bible version as you want, this verse....... John 1:10
Every one of them, says.... that Jesus was in the world, that HE CREATED.... "through HIM"...
"through HIM."
"through Him".
That is GOD, speaking the WORD, who is pre-incarnate JESUS< as the WORD of Creation.
Yes, that is mystical, but it is a fact.
= God SPOKE, and JESUS pre-incarnate and manifested in the flesh, 1 Timothy 3:16 is always the : WORD.
Jesus said """the words i speak unto you ...they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.""""
Jesus Said..."come out of that Grave, Lazarus", and He obeyed GOD the WORD, the same as when the Father said....."let there BE", and these WORDS became the life of Creation.
John 1:10
John 1:10
Reader, every time someone tries to tell you that Jesus is not the "OUR", with God the Father, just read John 1:10, and Colossians 1:16.
You really have to just not want to believe it, because you have been TAUGHT not to believe that "OUR" in GENESIS, is God the Father and Jesus the pre-incarnate WORD who became a MAN. 1 Timothy 3:16
Jesus said..>"when you've SEEN ME, you've SEEN THE FATHER".
He's not lying.
Jesus the Man is IN the Father, as the WORD pre-incarnate, and He is also wrapped in Human flesh as the Lord Jesus The Christ.
If you are born again, you will go to heaven and see Jesus and God the Father will be there, and if you are fighting this reality down here, you need to let that go and get your wrong belief corrected, as they are BOTH in Heaven, and they also exist in the born again.
You read that Jesus sat down by the Father.
That is =2.
LOOK.
A believer is 1.) "IN CHRIST", and also 2.) "ONE WITH GOD".
Thats 2..
See it?
If "christian forums", didnt allow people to fight endlessly about. :
1.) The Trinity
2.) Predestined Elect
3.) OSAS, or the inverse version : "yes you can lose your salvation"
4.) You must keep commandments..
Then its quite possible that 98% of the people who use these forums would not have anything to say.
Reader, the fact is...you believe what you were taught, from a Pulpit, from a Commentary....or etc.
You are a product of a teacher, and some fo them are devil led deceivers.
Hebrews 13:9.
So, if you belong to what Mainline Protestant Denoms categorize as a Cult, then there you go.
If you are a hard line Calvinist, then you were taught to be one.
If you are asked by a stranger if you are a "Christian", and you respond....""Yes'.... Im a Catholic, Baptist, Calvinist, Assembly of God, Methodist, JW, Mormon, ...... Lutheran, Presbyterian..... Word of Faith..... United Pentecostal,""""
Well, they didnt ask you that.... They asked you if you are a CHRISTIAN.
You gave them the wrong answer.
Think on that....
I'll show you how the bible teaches the Trinity, but first, do remember that if your faith is going to be grown by God then you have to live in this verse, Hebrews 13:9 as your faith.... and you have to get past doubting or simply not believing that God who saved you, can't keep you saved unless you get in on it with some self effort and self righteousness.
See, as soon as you start adding YOURSELF to God's "GIFT of Salvation" you just broke away from it., and fell from it.
Paul calls this faith melt down "falling from Grace".
If you believe you can lose your salvation, then that is you.
That's a fact.
==================================================
Ok,
God said let us make man in """OUR"""" Image.
So, who is the "our"? ???????
Is it God and the Angels? No, as the Angels are not made in God's Image. Man is made in God's image - likeness.
However, ...There was no man in Heaven when God created Adam on earth, so the "our" can't be God and some human.
So who is left? Who else is up there PRE-ADAM that God would say is "OUR", talking about Himself and THEM?
Look at John 1 for the Answer.
Its the "WORD."
And who is that?
Look at 1 Timothy 3:16. the WORD, from John 1, was made Flesh.
How many is that in Heaven, before one of them is "made flesh"?
= 2.
See that? That is the "OUR". That is God the Father, who is A Spirit, and the Pre-Incarnate WORD, who become Christ JESUS the Savior SENT from GOD.
If GOD SENT someone, then that is God + the ONE He sent.
There is your "OUR image".
Did you do the math? As it's = 2. "'OUR Image"
Now here is where it gets mystical.....
Ready?
God SPOKE Creation into Existence, and JESUS is the WORD..
See that?
Take a good look.
What does God SPEAK? He speaks words......and you read them....and JESUS pre-incarnate is the WORD, with no body, as He got His body inside a Virgin's womb.
Remember?
Now, You have the WORD who is GOD and God the Father who SENT the WORD, who is manifested in the world, and who is 2nd THE part of the "OUR".
= Thats 2.
Add the Holy Spirit, and you have 3.
Now, read as many bible version as you want, this verse....... John 1:10
Every one of them, says.... that Jesus was in the world, that HE CREATED.... "through HIM"...
"through HIM."
"through Him".
That is GOD, speaking the WORD, who is pre-incarnate JESUS< as the WORD of Creation.
Yes, that is mystical, but it is a fact.
= God SPOKE, and JESUS pre-incarnate and manifested in the flesh, 1 Timothy 3:16 is always the : WORD.
Jesus said """the words i speak unto you ...they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.""""
Jesus Said..."come out of that Grave, Lazarus", and He obeyed GOD the WORD, the same as when the Father said....."let there BE", and these WORDS became the life of Creation.
John 1:10
John 1:10
Reader, every time someone tries to tell you that Jesus is not the "OUR", with God the Father, just read John 1:10, and Colossians 1:16.
You really have to just not want to believe it, because you have been TAUGHT not to believe that "OUR" in GENESIS, is God the Father and Jesus the pre-incarnate WORD who became a MAN. 1 Timothy 3:16
Jesus said..>"when you've SEEN ME, you've SEEN THE FATHER".
He's not lying.
Jesus the Man is IN the Father, as the WORD pre-incarnate, and He is also wrapped in Human flesh as the Lord Jesus The Christ.
If you are born again, you will go to heaven and see Jesus and God the Father will be there, and if you are fighting this reality down here, you need to let that go and get your wrong belief corrected, as they are BOTH in Heaven, and they also exist in the born again.
You read that Jesus sat down by the Father.
That is =2.
LOOK.
A believer is 1.) "IN CHRIST", and also 2.) "ONE WITH GOD".
Thats 2..
See it?
Last edited:
I'm not terrified of your unBiblical questions. You've already told us that Jesus isn't THE Savior. That's exactly what Satan would say!
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