Inconsistency of teaching faith without works

[MatthewG]

works

Ghada,

Respect to you as a human being, whom I have no idea what you have been through in your life. As was suggested after years of study it seems like the works that come by and with faith are love. Therefore you can equate faith without love is dead, simply put.

Reminded of what Abraham had done, out of love for God by circumcising all of family members after accepting the covenant of God which was committed for him to accept or reject.

He could have rejected to do such a thing, however his works confirmed his faith in trusting God, and out of love for God and his promise he did what he had said.

The Covenant of Circumcision​

17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty[a]; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram[b]; your name will be Abraham,[c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan,where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcisedin the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

15 God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”

17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”

19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac.[d] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.” 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

23 On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.

Today we listen to Jesus.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Matthew 22:37Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’e 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’f 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

If that is the case, the works of God is to believe on the one whom sent Jesus, but also to love God first, and to love our neighbor as ourselves which is self sacrifice which God is pleased with such things.

Romans 12:12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice,holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

Hebrews 11:16 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him".

Hebrews 13:15Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise, the fruit of lips that confess His name. 16And do not neglect to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

When a person comes to realize all these things, and have a desire once they turn themselves over to Yahava by accepting the spirits call, the works of faith will follow. Love of God and love of others will follow.

Yahava is constantly calling out by the Spirit,

Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

Also you mentioned that not all past sins, present, or future sins are not forgiven;

Are you sure about that friend?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit,

Paul also mentions :

Romans 6:10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Today people walk around in the Garden of Eden that Jesus restored; eating either from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or the tree of life.

 

[MatthewG]

Ghada,

Respect to you as a human being, whom I have no idea what you have been through in your life. As was suggested after years of study it seems like the works that come by and with faith are love. Therefore you can equate faith without love is dead, simply put.

Reminded of what Abraham had done, out of love for God by circumcising all of family members after accepting the covenant of God which was committed for him to accept or reject.

He could have rejected to do such a thing, however his works confirmed his faith in trusting God, and out of love for God and his promise he did what he had said.



Today we listen to Jesus.





If that is the case, the works of God is to believe on the one whom sent Jesus, but also to love God first, and to love our neighbor as ourselves which is self sacrifice which God is pleased with such things.







When a person comes to realize all these things, and have a desire once they turn themselves over to Yahava by accepting the spirits call, the works of faith will follow. Love of God and love of others will follow.

Yahava is constantly calling out by the Spirit,




Also you mentioned that not all past sins, present, or future sins are not forgiven;

Are you sure about that friend?



Paul also mentions :




Today people walk around in the Garden of Eden that Jesus restored; eating either from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or the tree of life.

The question though then becomes what is this love that one has produced with-in by and through the spirit as to know the knowledge and have spiritual eyes opened.

Paul writes clearly saying -

1 Corinthians
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body [a]to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not [b]puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, [c]thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Peace be unto you,
Matthew

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The question though then becomes what is this love that one has produced with-in by and through the spirit as to know the knowledge and have spiritual eyes opened.

Paul writes clearly saying -

1 Corinthians
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body [a]to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not [b]puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, [c]thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Peace be unto you,
Matthew

1 Cor 13 says about Charity in the KJV not love ?
It's Charity ! 13:13 and now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of theses is charity. on account of God ?
Charity here means supernatural virtue, not the common worldly charity of that any idiot knows. it is not humanitarianism !

 

[MatthewG]

1 Cor 13 says about Charity in the KJV not love ?
It's Charity ! 13:13 and now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of theses is charity. on account of God ?
Charity here means supernatural virtue, not the common worldly charity of that any idiot knows. it is not humanitarianism !

Hello Reggie,

Thank you for sharing, the definition is founded to sustain as:

1 Corinthians
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

I also do not mind if it says love there, even though in greek there are 8 types of love or so, agape love, which is mentioned here is the superior love as it loves unconditionally (a supernatural virtue produced by the Holy Spirit which is given from Yahava through Christ indeed).

Peace unto you,
Matthew

 

[marks]

This is duplicity with James 2. You agree James is speaking of being saved by God, but not being justified by God.

Justification by works in James 2 is that of God with examples of Abraham and Rahab.



This is teaching to do works to show to others. Jesus calls this the hypocrisy of doing works to be seen and justified by man, not God.

That's why we are commanded not to do works to be seen of men, but in secret that God may justify and reward us openly.

I don't do works to show to others, but to love God and man.


Both Paul and James are speaking of justification with God. They do not contradict one another, and I show how. You're lack of response to it shows it's validity.

I don't think you understood my post well, I'll try again.

Paul teaches us that God saves us fully apart from our works. Works have nothing to do with being saved. Then, having been saved, we are different people. God can see we are different inside, but others can't. So they can see by our works that we've changed.

We don't do good works to prove anything to anyone, we do them because we are different inside. If you don't live any differently than you did before, can you be certain you are a changed person?

James is not speaking of justification before God. God already knows whether He's justified you.

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

"I will show thee . . .", not, "I will show God . . ."

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Only if you insert a nonbiblical teaching that faith without works does save.

If we believe both James and Paul write for God, then we know neither James nor Paul is speaking of any and all works. James includes works of faith, and Paul excludes works without faith.

I gave the explanation by clarifying Romans 4 with Titus 3, which you do not address at all, and so it stands.





Nowhere here does God say we are justified by faith alone, or by faith without works, or by faith apart from works.

God does say we are not saved by our own works of our own righteousness without the faith of Jesus. These are not the righteous works Paul and James are speaking of.



I've given arguments to reconcile Paul and James. You ignore them.





The context of James is salvation and justification of Christ. Faith alone does neither. Faith with works of God's righteousness does both.

These are words of man's wisdom. Nowhere does the Bible say God does not 'need to see' our works.

By seeing our works of faith. He says our faith is not real without them.

Teaching our faith is real without works, is saying we believe our faith is real, though God does not.




Foreknowledge of God is true. He has seen all good and evil we have done, and will ever do.

This teaches man to seek justification by man.

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

Abraham's works were justified by God.

Agreed then. It's not just people claiming faith, but believers whose faith is dead without works.



Not past works of our own righteousness which we have done. Those works whether by nature or by law can save no man without faith in God.

Not by works of righteosuness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us

If your faith is in your works, its not in God.. No works means no work period..

You can;t save yourself.

Paul is fighting against those who claim we can be saved by works without faith.

No, They claimed faith plus works. Like you are doing

Paul is not fighting James who says faith alone can save no man, and we must be justified by works of faith.

Your right Paul is not fighting James. nor is James fighting Paul

Paul fought legalism (faith plus works) James fought licentiousness (no faith)

True. It's the doctrine of being saved by faith alone without works.

No it is the teaching of mere belief, no faith based on no true repentance.. But in pride refusing to truly repent. and come to saving faith

They are teaching that only believing we are saved is enough to save us.

Yes, Even demons believe but tremble.

No one is saved by mere belief, they are saved by faith. thats WHY they have no works. because they have no faith.. Its not the lack of works which condemn them, it is their lack of faith.

As is James 2

no, it is not. if it is, then Paul and james contradict each other. and we can throw the whole bible out

Jesus calls that hypocrisy of doing works to be seen of men.

The way we know any man is justified with God, is when God says so, which is by works of faith.

God does not need to see your works to know if you have faith or not.

If you think he does. then you do not know God very well

I am stuck on James not being disbelieved or changed, in order to teach a faith opposing His words.

Faith without works is dead, being alone, and can save no man. Man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

A dead faith is no faith at all

Paul said we are saved by grace through faith not works

The people in James did not have that faith.. they had mere belief because they did not repent..

I recommend you Get off James, you have problems with it, because you do not understand what James is saying, and you need to focus on the rest of the word

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's inconsistent to agree with being saved by grace, but not with being justified by works.

If by works does not mean by means of works, then by grace does not mean by means of grace.

It can't be both

Romans 11:6

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

grace is freely given to the undeserved a gift

you work for a reward or a wage. You do not work for Grace it would no longer be grace it wpould be a reward

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

If you don't know what works means, ask a grade-school child.

it does not appear you know what grace or works mean..

 

[MatthewG]

Not by works of righteosuness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us

Hello Eternally Grateful,

Would like to see if I can help sort this out, possibly. Took a lot of time to put this together, and if you don't wanna go through it it is understandable. We will be judged on the bases of our measure of faith towards God, being very close to him, or very far away from him, JEsus Christ is the one whom saves yes, and he makes us right with God; but God desires for us to walk, and mature and leave behind the doctrines which Jesus had established or well that is what the writer of hebrews say in Hebrews 6.

Jesus Christ and his righteousness is what puts people in right standing before God to have peace with God.

Romans 3:

Righteousness Through Faith​

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[b] boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

No one can work and fulfill the law and prophets like JEsus Christ could, and because he fulfilled those laws, those who look on him, are made right with God because of what he had done.

If your faith is in your works, its not in God.. No works means no work period..

You can;t save yourself.

I don't think that was what the person was saying at all.

No, They claimed faith plus works. Like you are doing

James does say if you have faith without works then your faith is dead.
You have to take in everything that James is saying in the whole letter, but here is chapter 2, and shows how works, work - because of faith, which produces love. It's where you dont discriminate towards other people for being rich or for being poor, being a believer or not being one.

James 2

New International Version

​

Favoritism Forbidden​

2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in.3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b]also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Faith and Deeds​

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God.Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Faith without deeds is dead, and if that is the case, faith is useless if it brings no result, which faith does bring in a result, and that is passing through the old man, into the newness of life which is spiritual.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @Eternally Grateful this the second part,

Ephesians 4:
New Life in Christ
(Colossians 3:1–17)

17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. 19Having lost all sense of shame, they have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity, with a craving for more.

20But this is not the way you came to know Christ. 21Surely you heard of Him and were taught in Him—in keeping with the truth that is in Jesus— 22to put off your former way of life, your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be renewed in the spirit of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one another. 26“Be angry, yet do not sin.”d Do not let the sun set upon your anger, 27and do not give the devil a foothold.

28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing good with his own hands, that he may have something to share with the one in need.

29Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building up the one in need and bringing grace to those who listen.

30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

if faith doesn't produce love for God and love for others then that faith is useless.

Your right Paul is not fighting James. nor is James fighting Paul

Paul fought legalism (faith plus works) James fought licentiousness (no faith)

Paul did fight against going back to the Law to the Gentiles, but James also fought for the fact that faith does produce new life with-in the believer which he wrote to his Jewish brethren.

God does not need to see your works to know if you have faith or not.

Yahava will see if you love him, and others or not. To express that Yahava doesn't see or doesn't realize is to close the eyes of him, in my opinion. You will be judged by the works you allow him to do in and through in asking him to help you by the Holy Spirit through out the context of your whole life, and there will be mistakes made here and there, but God is a good God, full of mercy who is willingly if you let him, get you through the hardships whatever that may mean to you.

Does that mean you need to WORK - and say hey guys look what I did, went and fed the homeless guys down the street, and ya ya ya - none of that means anything. It's the working on the heart that Yahava does see, and looks at.

1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, “Look not on his countenance or on the height of his stature, because I have refused him; for the Lord seeth not as man seeth. For man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Yahava looketh on the heart.”

And believe it or not he is pleased when people live for Him, offering up a sacrfice of praise to God, and fruit of lips that acknowledge his name, and do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Romans 14:8If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

hebrews 13:

Sacrifices Pleasing to God​

13 Let brotherly love continue. 2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3 Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body. 4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous. 5 Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” 6 So we can confidently say,

“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear;
what can man do to me?”
7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9 Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them. 10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tent[a] have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. 12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. 13 Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. 14 For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come. 15 Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. 16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

If you wanna run in the race, that is your choice as it was Pauls and he ran to obtain a spiritual resurrectional reward that past the normal one,

Philippians 3
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

So, does faith produce the works of what God wants you to do?

According to Paul yes,

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

What is God's good purpose?

1 Thessalonians 5:
12 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14 And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else.

16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good,22 reject every kind of evil.

What I find sad @Eternally Grateful is that many people do not know these things due to lack of study, lack of repetition, and lack of enthusiasm.

You may freely believe what you want to believe, however without works of love that God wants you to do by your own free will (Not by compulsion, not because Johnny needs you to be at the potluck, it all is subjected between you and God, but freely and willingly), a persons faith is dead.

People can claim to have faith, just look at the Pharisees in Jesus day, and what he said about them when he quoted from Isaiah.

Matthew 15:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.

It's not our own works - it is allowing God to work in and through you; everyone is justified in faith of Christ who follow after him, and follow after the holy spirit which produces fruit in a persons life, and stores spiritual treasures in heaven. Which will be rewarded at the end of life.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hello Eternally Grateful,

Would like to see if I can help sort this out, possibly. Took a lot of time to put this together, and if you don't wanna go through it it is understandable. We will be judged on the bases of our measure of faith towards God, being very close to him, or very far away from him, JEsus Christ is the one whom saves yes, and he makes us right with God; but God desires for us to walk, and mature and leave behind the doctrines which Jesus had established or well that is what the writer of hebrews say in Hebrews 6.

Jesus Christ and his righteousness is what puts people in right standing before God to have peace with God.

What did he do to give us the chance to apply this to us? Just his good deed?

No one can work and fulfill the law and prophets like JEsus Christ could, and because he fulfilled those laws, those who look on him, are made right with God because of what he had done.

what did he do? And how is that applied to us?

I don't think that was what the person was saying at all.

Sorry, But I disagree

James does say if you have faith without works then your faith is dead.
You have to take in everything that James is saying in the whole letter, but here is chapter 2, and shows how works, work - because of faith, which produces love. It's where you dont discriminate towards other people for being rich or for being poor, being a believer or not being one.


Faith without deeds is dead, and if that is the case, faith is useless if it brings no result, which faith does bring in a result, and that is passing through the old man, into the newness of life which is spiritual.

James never claimed they had faith

He said, what does it prophet brethren if they CLAIM to have faith. but has no works..

when we remove the word claim out. we change the whole meaning.

They CLAIMED to have faith. But the fact they had no works proved their CLAIM was false.. A dead faith is no faith at all. it is powerless.

if they had living faith. they would have had works.. They would not have been hearers and not doers. because faith works..If you have faith to save your eternal soul. because you have faith what he said about you (your guilt) is true. then your going to do something which shows that that faith is real. You do not say you have faith in someone, and NEVER do anything they say..

and remember, James said they had NO WORKS.. how many works is NO WORKS?

 

[MatthewG]

If you read all that was suggested, you should come to some type of understanding, thank you for your time and comments @Eternally Grateful. For myself my choice is to move on forward.

Peace unto you,
Matthew

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hello @Eternally Grateful this the second part,



if faith doesn't produce love for God and love for others then that faith is useless.

its not faith at all.

we are saved by grace THROUGH faith.

if we have no faith. we are not saved. period

Paul did fight against going back to the Law to the Gentiles, but James also fought for the fact that faith does produce new life with-in the believer which he wrote to his Jewish brethren.

Paul faught that fact also. He said we are not saved by work. but those who are saved are created for works.. If the works paul said a believer of true living faith are not present. then he to would claim that faith was dead.

But in either case. No work will save you. Only the work of CHrist on the cross will save you.l

Yahava will see if you love him, and others or not. To express that Yahava doesn't see or doesn't realize is to close the eyes of him, in my opinion. You will be judged by the works you allow him to do in and through in asking him to help you by the Holy Spirit through out the context of your whole life, and there will be mistakes made here and there, but God is a good God, full of mercy who is willingly if you let him, get you through the hardships whatever that may mean to you.

You and I can not see as God does. He knows everything you will do from birth till death before you are born..

So God knows if your faith is real or not

Not to mention. God can see if our faith is real. or our faith is not.. because he sees deep inside us..

to say God needs to see a work before he knows faith is real is to Mock God and say he is flawed..

Does that mean you need to WORK - and say hey guys look what I did, went and fed the homeless guys down the street, and ya ya ya - none of that means anything. It's the working on the heart that Yahava does see, and looks at.



And believe it or not he is pleased when people live for Him, offering up a sacrfice of praise to God, and fruit of lips that acknowledge his name, and do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.


If you wanna run in the race, that is your choice as it was Pauls and he ran to obtain a spiritual resurrectional reward that past the normal one,



So, does faith produce the works of what God wants you to do?

According to Paul yes,




What is God's good purpose?

Gods purpose is first to make us right with him. That was done by him allowing himself to be lifted on the cross. Like Moses lifted the serpent. Just like whoever believed an in faith looked up at the serpent was given life. so to will those who in faith look up to Christ be saved,

if yuo think you can save yourself. you may claim you looked up. But you will keep trying to save yourself (work) and you will fail.

What I find sad @Eternally Grateful is that many people do not know these things due to lack of study, lack of repetition, and lack of enthusiasm.

You may freely believe what you want to believe, however without works of love that God wants you to do by your own free will (Not by compulsion, not because Johnny needs you to be at the potluck, it all is subjected between you and God, but freely and willingly), a persons faith is dead.

People can claim to have faith, just look at the Pharisees in Jesus day, and what he said about them when he quoted from Isaiah.


It's not our own works - it is allowing God to work in and through you; everyone is justified in faith of Christ who follow after him, and follow after the holy spirit which produces fruit in a persons life, and stores spiritual treasures in heaven. Which will be rewarded at the end of life.

I can love people all I want. If I did nto come as the tax collector and call out to God to have mercy on me, I will be lost. Because I have rejected the gospel of Christ.

I do not love because I have some special power. I love because he first loved me.. The reason people who lack faith have no works (even if they may be obedient in some laws) is because they never experienced the love of Christ, because their faith was in their works, not in God.

Licentiousness and legalism are two coins of the same side. both are steeped in the sin of pride.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you read all that was suggested, you should come to some type of understanding, thank you for your time and comments @Eternally Grateful. For myself my choice is to move on forward.

Peace unto you,
Matthew

so if I read you I should agree with you?

Probably a good choice to do what you said. Because even if I did agree with you. That is not the way to have a discussion. and why sadly most people will be stuck on a false belief for a lifetime, if their belief is wrong, because they think they are right. and no one can change their mind

we call that becoming unteachable.

I know. this was me for many years. I was unteachable and use the same arguments.. God had to humble me.. I will pray for you as well

 

[MatthewG]

Was just sharing, you may do whatever you want. To fight and bicker is not the call of the christian life, @Eternally Grateful was just sharing some of the insight gained through the years of being a christian. In the second part I even say you can believe whatever you want. To fight and bicker is pointless; cause people on the internet can be exteremly tightly wound.

Peace to you,
Matthew

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Was just sharing, you may do whatever you want. To fight and bicker is not the call of the christian life, @Eternally Grateful was just sharing some of the insight gained through the years of being a christian. In the second part I even say you can believe whatever you want. To fight and bicker is pointless; cause people on the internet can be exteremly tightly wound.

Peace to you,
Matthew

I thought we were discussing. Not fighting..

 

[MatthewG]

And my decision is to move forward, @Eternally Grateful. Thank you for understanding. There is nothing really left for me to say about the subject any longer. People live their lives subjectively with what they believe and what they know, be it there own thoughts or by those whom teach, or in Spirit, the only encouragement i can give is to keep studying and hope for Yahava to bless you in your life as you follow his son Yeshua.

Thank you again for understanding and you take care.

 

[Ghada]

Ghada,

Respect to you as a human being, whom I have no idea what you have been through in your life. As was suggested after years of study it seems like the works that come by and with faith are love. Therefore you can equate faith without love is dead, simply put.

Reminded of what Abraham had done, out of love for God by circumcising all of family members after accepting the covenant of God which was committed for him to accept or reject.

He could have rejected to do such a thing, however his works confirmed his faith in trusting God, and out of love for God and his promise he did what he had said.

True. Love without loving is as dead as faith without works. No man is saved by faith alone, and no man loves God without loving Him.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Both faith and love in the Bible are action words only. The only faith and love that is not in action, is that of the world.

If that is the case, the works of God is to believe on the one whom sent Jesus, but also to love God first, and to love our neighbor as ourselves which is self sacrifice which God is pleased with such things.

True, neither is without the other.

When a person comes to realize all these things, and have a desire once they turn themselves over to Yahava by accepting the spirits call, the works of faith will follow. Love of God and love of others will follow.

This is the natural man's view of works, that they are only with the body. This natural view does not discern the spiritual works of faith we must first do within, which are seen and justified by God.

Jesus' commands us to do the first works and cleanse our spirit of all filthiness of thoughts, intents, and vain imagination, and not just our outward lives. (Matthew 23)(2 Cor 7) (Rev 2)

Both the reforming natural man and the religious Pharisees, seek only to clean up their outward living. The saints in Christ Jesus clean up the inward soul first.

There is no faith of Jesus in the heart, without the first works of purifying our hearts of lust.

Within our soul there is no faith without the first works. Only outward works follow inward faith.

Also you mentioned that not all past sins, present, or future sins are not forgiven;

Are you sure about that friend?

As sure as the Bible surely says our old sins that are past, are forgiven and washed clean away.(Rom 3:25) (2 Peter 1:9)

I only teach what I can quote from the Bible. Teaching the Bible is easy as repeating the words of the Bible. Teaching is only made hard by trying to teach our own words and will into the Bible.

No Bible says anything about present and future wilful sinning, as being already forgiven.

Today people walk around in the Garden of Eden that Jesus restored; eating either from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or the tree of life.

True. So long as we are walking as Jesus walked. Which does not include doing unrighteous works of the flesh.

Without repentance, we as the first Adam are driven from the garden of God.

 

[Ghada]

I don't think you understood my post well, I'll try again.

No, I've got it right enough. You say justification in James 2 is of men, and I show it is of God, of which Abraham and Rahab are examples.

You understand that but don't accept it, in order to keep teaching being saved and justified by faith without works.

Your effort to make justification in James 2, as being with man only and not God, is obviously not what the words plainly say.

James 2 says we are justified by works the same as Abraham and Rahab, with God.

So long as you say it is with men and not God, then you will insert your doctrine of being justified by God without works.

Paul teaches us that God saves us fully apart from our works. Works have nothing to do with being saved.

As we see. The only way anyone can say this is if they do not believe James 2, that we are justified by works with God the same as Abraham and Rahab.

When you acknowledge this simple reading of words in James 2, then perhaps we can continue on to Paul's teaching of justification by faith.

Until then, as we see here, it's just a useless circling from opposing sides.

 

[marks]

You say justification in James 2 is of men, and I show it is of God, of which Abraham and Rahab are examples.

As I've shown you from the passage. Do you not have an actual reply to what I said?

James - not me - James contextualizes his statements in, "You show me your faith, I'll show you mine", and then explains how you cannot show someone your faith without works in your life. They cannot see your heart or your mind, as God does - Who does not need evidence, but knows the truth about you - and all they can see is if you are doing as a Christian is to do, and in particular caring for the needs of others.

No one could see Abraham's faith, but God saw it, and that is why it's written that Abraham believed God, and his faith was counted for righteousness before he did the subsequent works. The works make demonstration to those who cannot see the heart. Abraham was justified prior to his works.

This context of demonstration to others is from James' own words, and really, the Words of God, to either be believed or rejected, which words fully harmonize with the balance of Scripture.

Much love!