Instruction in righteousness

[Mr E]

Things will never change unless there is some honest appraisal of where we find ourselves in church history. On another thread I posted a poll that got little to no attention. Nobody opted for light being a cover for darkness. Why not? That's what at least half of people believe on this forum. Yet when it is laid out clearly....there is too much shame and dishonesty to vote as they ought to. Too much hiding in darkness. With that kind of dissimulation, we maintain a dead church. We can't fool God...We need to come out of the darkness into the light.

Is grace a cover up for sin or an empowerment of the inner man to walk as Jesus walked?

Luther was unashamed of his position. He said no amount of sin could overcome God's grace. We could "sin boldly" all we want. God's grace can never run out!

But Luther's followers have no such honesty or courage. Instead they hide in the darkness and simply rail against bringers of light. This forum is a dark place with a few slivers of light here and there.

You are sounding more and more like a Crusader.

Except on a mission from God to root out "doctrines" that rub you wrong. Calvinism (Luther) chief among them. If that is your cause, you should say so, rather than lecturing about honesty.

 

[-Phil]

We grow in righteousness

In accordance with direct experience, ‘we’ is a belief. ‘We grow’ is misleading as it implies the truth sought is other than what already is, and implies a separate self which finds, becomes, attains, a truth ‘in a future’, which in accordance with direct experience, there isn’t.

 

[Johann]

Modern religion teaches us that we have no need to repent, be humble, seek the Lord...etc Since we have all we need by just believing we are accepted as we are. In fact, the tables have been turned. We are told that we are the ones who are doing the accepting...its up to us to accept Christ or not. And I suppose that means He must be very grateful that He is accepted by us.

Really?

Does God serve our flesh the same way we do?

Repentance is needed to turn the world back the right side up. God is the One doing the accepting, not us. God does the justifying, not us.

The filthy are the posers who claim to be rich in grace and yet are simply covered by the flesh. They bring what is unclean into the holy place. A self-righteousness that poses as being covered by God's righteousness adds filth or leaven into the mix. God will reject those who do this. Outer darkness is reserved for these.

 

[Episkopos]

You are sounding more and more like a Crusader.

Except on a mission from God to root out "doctrines" that rub you wrong. Calvinism (Luther) chief among them. If that is your cause, you should say so, rather than lecturing about honesty.

What I find is that most Protestants are not as honest as Luther was in his outlandish claims. They cringe at the implications of what he is saying even as they support his ideas. We see the same thing with Trump and the Evangelical posturings that are both ashamed of trump and his greatest admirers. Trump said that he could kill people and still be beloved by the Evangelical right. And that's exactly what men like Luther and Calvin did. They killed the elect thinking they were doing God a service.

Both the Catholic church AND the Protestant church have blood on their hands. But people ignore that and follow the easy path to whatever feels good in the (religious) flesh.

 

[Mr E]

What I find is that most Protestants are not as honest as Luther was in his outlandish claims. They cringe at the implications of what he is saying even as they support his ideas. We see the same thing with Trump and the Evangelical posturings that are both ashamed of trump and his greatest admirers. Trump said that he could kill people and still be beloved by the Evangelical right. And that's exactly what men like Luther and Calvin did. They killed the elect thinking they were doing God a service.

Both the Catholic church AND the Protestant church have blood on their hands. But people ignore that and follow the easy path to whatever feels good in the (religious) flesh.

I don't entirely disagree with that. It's our history. Church history. American history. World history.

I'll add Trump to your list of villains.

 

[Johann]

Except on a mission from God to root out "doctrines" that rub you wrong. Calvinism (Luther) chief among them. If that is your cause, you should say so, rather than lecturing about honesty.

From one ditch to the other....

 

[Episkopos]

Modern preachers are doing exactly what Rabbis are doing in Judaism. Instead of teaching people that they need to keep the WHOLE law, or be guilty of all...no, they teach that ANY obedience brings benefits so that ANY observance is better than none. So then the same goes for the church. We are taught to be as good as possible...without any recourse to actual holiness or the perfection that is in Christ. In Him is no sin.

The gospel is not about what we can do in our own strength. It is about the empowerment from heaven to walk as Jesus walked. As we abide in Christ we are empowered to walk as Jesus did. Now, of course bible readers are unable to see what is actually in the bible nowadays..."mystics" like those bible authors can't seem to be trusted.

​

"He that saith he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1 John 2:6

Can modern believers endure such sound doctrine? No

So instead we satisfy our itching ears by heaping up teachers to tell us what is convenient ....but still far less than the gospel. Anything but teach the through the power of God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

In the case of Ez. 21...the ones who would otherwise be righteous put themselves in a place they don't belong. How is that possible? By disrespecting the holiness of God without fear or consideration of who God is.

Yes, I’ve got it again now. Who knows how long I will have it. We might be watching Barney again tomorrow. I would say I’m my own unique kind of idiot except Nancy has the same exact problem. So there are at least two of us with the problem of seeing then not seeing then seeing. Let’s hope I have it firmly this time so you won’t strain an eye muscle rolling your eyes in disbelief at me!

 

[Mr E]

Modern preachers are doing exactly what Rabbis are doing in Judaism. Instead of teaching people that they need to keep the WHOLE law, or be guilty of all...no, they teach that ANY obedience brings benefits so that ANY observance is better than none. So then the same goes for the church. We are taught to be as good as possible...without any recourse to actual holiness or the perfection that is in Christ. In Him is no sin.

The gospel is not about what we can do in our own strength. It is about the empowerment from heaven to walk as Jesus walked. As we abide in Christ we are empowered to walk as Jesus did. Now, of course bible readers are unable to see what is actually in the bible nowadays..."mystics" like those bible authors can't seem to be trusted.

​

"He that saith he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1 John 2:6

Can modern believers endure such sound doctrine? No

So instead we satisfy our itching ears by heaping up teachers to tell us what is convenient ....but still far less than the gospel. Anything but teach the through the power of God.

Folks will disagree. Sometimes they will agree with something, and disagree with others. Let them.

It's not your business. When you attack the doctrines of others, you invite scrutiny of your own. You can't step up on a soapbox and shout on the street corner-- "Stop following doctrines of men! Follow me!"

Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?

 

[Episkopos]

I don't entirely disagree with that. It's our history. Church history. American history. World history.

I'll add Trump to your list of villains.

This isn't personal for me. I just see the inconsistencies among those who are being led but are not being honest. let the demoguogic grandstanders say the most outrageous things. OK. It's a free country! Does temporal politics "trump" Christ? For MANY American evangelicals...yes. Such is the cultural shallowness of their faith.

Then, there's Luther. So what, a frustrated monk decides to come up with a clever scheme to justify the flesh as if its holy...no big deal. And let whoever believes that sign up. But then to be dishonest about it...that's the lukewarm part that has NO chance of ever being righteous. Blatant sinners are closer to the truth than they are. We have the biblical account but no one seems to be paying attention. God hates the lukewarm more than any other. He hates the posers and those who are comfortable with hiding in the darkness...getting away with as much sin as they can.

Does light cover darkness? Most believe so...but will never come into the light to say so. We have a generation of lukewarm dissimulators who hate truth and light.

 

[-Phil]

No one is being led. That message is the misleadership.

 

[Episkopos]

Folks will disagree. Sometimes they will agree with something, and disagree with others. Let them.

It's not your business. When you attack the doctrines of others, you invite scrutiny of your own. You can't step up on a soapbox and shout on the street corner-- "Stop following doctrines of men! Follow me!"

Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?

I say...follow Christ or AT LEAST follow righteousness. But since most people don't know either recourse...they think it's about me. But that's because they assume I'm doing the same thing they are. Because this is all about them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Please brother, too many words, and like Wuest, you believe in the "surgical removing of the sinful nature..."

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
It is the spirit and truth of what physical circumcision was a picture of.

 

[Mr E]

This isn't personal for me. I just see the inconsistencies among those who are being led but are not being honest. let the demoguogic grandstanders say the most outrageous things. OK. It's a free country! Does temporal politics "trump" Christ? For MANY American evangelicals...yes. Such is the cultural shallowness of their faith.

Then, there's Luther. So what, a frustrated monk decides to come up with a clever scheme to justify the flesh as if its holy...no big deal. And let whoever believes that sign up. But then to be dishonest about it...that's the lukewarm part that has NO chance of ever being righteous. Blatant sinners are closer to the truth than they are. We have the biblical account but no one seems to be paying attention. God hates the lukewarm more than any other. He hates the powers and those who are comfortable with hiding in the darkness...getting away with as much sin as they can.

Does light cover darkness. Most believe so...but will never come into the light to say so. We have a generation of lukewarm dissimulators who hate truth and light.

These men, whom you don't trust are not unlike any other men. They started with an idea that they developed into perhaps a personal philosophy or perspective that became a formula or doctrine. Or maybe they simply started with an opinion that the beliefs of others were suspect, inadequate, or otherwise wrong. They started with a beef about the way things were and thought they had a better way.

In one way or another, some folks followed them. Some folks followed those folks and some others saw this and thought it was a parade so they followed too and it became somewhat of a movement. Do you see that? Some joined in, not even knowing what it was all about.

When these men are gone, new men will say-- follow me.

 

[Mr E]

I say...follow Christ or AT LEAST follow righteousness. But since most people don't know either recourse...they think it's about me. But that's because they assume I'm doing the same thing they are. Because this is all about them.

In your experience, does Christ need your help? Is Christ inadequate to any task?

 

[Episkopos]

These men, whom you don't trust are not unlike any other men. They started with an idea that they developed into perhaps a personal philosophy or perspective that became a formula or doctrine. Or maybe they simply started with an opinion that the beliefs of others were suspect, inadequate, or otherwise wrong. They started with a beef about the way things were and thought they had a better way.

In one way or another, some folks followed them. Some folks followed those folks and some others saw this and thought it was a parade so they followed too and it became somewhat of a movement. Do you see that? Some joined in, not even knowing what it was all about.

When these men are gone, new men will say-- follow me.

Sure. But let's be honest about it. let's take things to their final conclusion. We saw in the 20th century how both Communism and Fascism were so destructive. We have that as part of world history. But we still have people who are doomed to repeat the same errors...because they aren't paying attention.

On judgment day all the posers in Christendom will be cast away into outer darkness. We have church history and all the evil that was perpetrated by men who thought they had some good ideas. Hitler used Luther to persecute the Jews. We learned that Nazism is bad....but not its root...Lutherism. We will have to wait until judgment day to see how God feels about a scheme that makes sin and holiness mix together. OR, we can read our bibles and take its teachings to heart and abandon iniquity. And for the few brave and faithful ones...we can come into the light to expose the darkness and be taken up to walk in Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

In your experience, does Christ need your help? Is Christ inadequate to any task?

Why evangelize? Why not allow people to die? Why preach the gospel?

I preach the gospel of the kingdom. The same gospel we read about in the bible. The one with the power to translate people into the keeping power of God in the kingdom realm...where there is NO sin.

Do I do this the same way that religious pulpiteers do? No, I have a testimony to the truth of the gospel, so I preach Christ.

 

[Mr E]

Sure. But let's be honest about it. let's take things to their final conclusion. We saw in the 20th century how both Communism and Fascism were so destructive. We have that as part of world history. But we still have people who are doomed to repeat the same errors...because they aren't paying attention.

On judgment day all the posers in Christendom will be cast away into outer darkness. We have church history and all the evil that was perpetrated by men who thought they had some good ideas. Hitler used Luther to persecute the Jews. We learned that Nazism is bad....but not its root...Lutherism. We will have to wait until judgment day to see hoe God feels about a scheme that makes sin and holiness mix together. OR, we can read our bibles and take its teachings to heart and abandon iniquity. And for the few brave and faithful should...we can come into the light to expose the darkness and be taken up to walk in Christ.

All men should be wary of the certainty of their ideas.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

When looking up that verse about the word dividing asunder to give to Johann I ran across this one:

And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites
i think some translations say, cut him in pieces

I can’t understand how men have been given Gods Spirit and land in the outer darkness forever
Does part of Gods Spirit, which is their eternal life, remain in them? Because if it didn’t, how do they live forever in that torture?

 

[Mr E]

Why evangelize? Why not allow people to die? Why preach the gospel?

I preach the gospel of the kingdom. The same gospel we read about in the bible. The one with the power to translate people into the keeping power of God in the kingdom realm...where there is NO sin.

Do I do this the same way that religious pulpiteers do? No, I have a testimony to the truth of the gospel, I preach Christ.

John, -you teach 'your ideas' about Christ. The very minute you forget this, you take a seat at a table with all those other men you've grown to despise.