That doesn't stop you or who you are following. Look to your own certainties and allow God to work among His people as He sees fit. Stop judging by your own mind.....and you just might catch a glimpse of the Eternal One doing His works.
Instruction in righteousness
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This is exactly it. They clearly saw something was wrong and sought to correct or reconcile. But they overcorrected the OTHER way.
I don't despise anybody. You are trying to create me in your image. I'll say it one last time. I am against the hiding in darkness, afraid to be exposed for what they actually believe and do.
I am following the path that the few follow. I am not looking for approval from men. And I am willing to suffer for the sake of Christ. That calling is on me. You have no idea about it.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Prime example of quoting scripture out of context.
Show me where the sinful nature is "cut out" from the believer
I disagree and for this reason - Those men’s teachings did not take into account the verses that seemed to OPPOSE their teachings/doctrines.
Yet with what Epi has said, the verses actually begin to line up, not oppose. (Of course what he says opposes the DOCTRINE but it does not oppose scripture). I’ve looked into it for quite a few years. I’ve done some struggling. It EXPLAINS what was so vague and disunified in my mind.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Show me, in scripture, where the sinful nature is "cut out" from the believer, even with a new heart given.
The earnest of the Spirit (in the heart) returns back to God since they were unfaithful to keep up their end of the bargain. Like the buried talent returns back the the one who gave it. Since these didn't allow for the flesh to be cut away...since they identified with their own carnal nature (even railing against the perfection that is in Christ), they will have what was given to them (by grace) to be cut away so that nothing remains of them but their precious ego. Since they did believe in Christ they will live. Whoever believes in Christ will live. But they are unworthy to live in God's light...they love darkness more than light...so they will live in eternal darkness. It's about going where we belong.
You may think all of that. You probably even believe it. But even the tiniest amount of self-reflection would prick your soul and you'd realize that you've been tone deaf to people who listen to you open-mindedly (some of them) and lovingly caution you about the way you come across. At times you sound arrogant and full of self-righteous hubris. You call yourself an 'overseer' by some kind of self-appointment and you position yourself in this way above others, whom you then deride as not being somehow as enlightened as you are.
Enlightened people don't talk about how enlightened they are. They just don't. They just are.
My (unsolicited) advice to you?
I welcome your disagreement.
It's when a person can't tolerate disagreement that you should become wary of that person. I like John. I think he's a swell guy, probably a very nice guy that I would enjoy having a beer, coffee, or glass of wine with. He's a terrific musician.
But he doesn't have to brag about his musical talents or proclaim them to be beyond most everyone else's. It's self-evident.
John is a lot of wonderful things and a few problematic things. Kind of like all of us. He shouldn't presume to elevate himself.
I guess you can only perceive what you are able to. If you read my posts through you would see that the mercy of God extends beyond what evangelicals are conditioned to believe. God will have mercy on whoever He wills. The righteous are such because of their attitude and what they do. WHOEVER does what is right and fears God is ACCEPTED by God. (Peter said that.) No doctrinal bent needed, or wanted.
What you are reacting to is the gospel I preach. The higher walk. What Paul was speaking about. One of freedom from sin. If you spent say...the next few years studying the bible to see what this freedom is...then you would not hate me and what I teach so much.
I go easy on the righteous...since God does. But I go harder on those who claim to be under grace...as God does. I follow Christ. Having mercy on whom He has mercy and warning those who live by the flesh WHILE claiming to be sanctified. It's for people's own good.
Anything of spirit and truth is taking scripture out of context to you. What is really happening is the spirit of the word is taking it out of the context of ONLY a human understanding. But that seems like ridiculousness to men yet carnal.
I can’t show you where the sinful nature is divided asunder from the spirit. If what I said doesn’t make you able to see it, you aren’t going to see it.
I see that what you are defending is the assertion that you can never have victory over your flesh in this life. For that reason, you can’t see the promises or the hope of glory.
Don't make assumptions (it's beneath you). I don't hate you, and I know the Bible well.
You are not on a higher walk. (sorry if that's breaking news). You are on the earthly plane, with all of us.
Thank you for your consideration. But I say the things I do to help those whom God might not correct in a personal way. God's way is to correct one brother...and then he is to warn the others. God has been HARD on me but also very gracious. I am holding so much back....the things I've seen and the power I have experienced. But the truth should be enough to convince people that what I'm saying is truth. How can I keep what God has PERSONALLY taught me to myself. I would see as many as possible rescued from an eternity in darkness. So what I do I do for care of the brethren. I do what I would want others to do for me.
If I thought musicians could benefit from my personal musical experience...I would blog about music. But there are many fine musicians out there who do a better job of it than I could.
No musician will rise up on judgment day and accuse me of holding back musical truth. But unless I preach what I know...all the brethren I have come into contact with will rise up and accuse me of keeping back what could have rescued them from their predicament. I say that with the utmost reality and all the humility I have.
Peace.
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I'm sure He couldn't do it without you. I've never met a tone-deaf musician before.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
The next parable is addressed to people who pride themselves on being righteous, and who despise all others as inferior. By labeling the first man as a Pharisee, the Savior did not leave any doubt as to the particular class of people He was addressing. Although the Pharisee went through the motions of prayer, he was really not speaking to God. He was rather boasting of his own moral and religious attainments. Instead of comparing himself with God's perfect standard and seeing how sinful he really was, he compared himself with others in the community and prided himself on being better. His frequent repetition of the personal pronoun I reveals the true state of his heart as conceited and self-sufficient.
18:13 The tax collector was a striking contrast. Standing before God, he sensed his own utter unworthiness. He was humbled to the dust. He would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast and cried to God for mercy: “God be merciful to me a (literally “the”) sinner!” He did not think of himself as one sinner among many, but as the sinner who was unworthy of anything from God.
18:14 The Lord Jesus reminded His hearers that it is this spirit of self-humiliation and repentance that is acceptable to God. Contrary to what human appearances might indicate, it was the tax collector who went down to his house justified. God exalts the humble, but He humbles those who exalt themselves.
The Pharisee stood,.... Standing was a praying posture; See Gill on Mat_6:5 nor is this observed, as if it was something amiss: but the sense is, either that he stood in some place of eminence, that he might be seen of others; or he stood in a set, fixed posture, in a very grave and solemn manner, showing great devotion and seriousness; or he stood with great boldness and confidence:
and prayed thus with himself; the phrase, "with himself", may be read either with the word "stood", as it is in the Syriac version; and then the sense is that he stood alone, apart from the publican, at a distance from him, as despising him; and lest he should be polluted by him; see Isa_65:4 or with the word "prayed", and does not design internal prayer, which was what the Pharisees did not use; for all they did was to be seen, and heard of men: but the meaning is, that he prayed only with respect to himself; he was wholly intent upon himself; his own self, and the commendation of himself, were the subject of his prayer: his whole dependence in it was on himself; and he was only seeking by it his own glory: he had no regard to the people of God, to aid the saints, nor did he put up one petition for them; nor had he any respect to Christ, the mediator, through whom access is had to God, and acceptance with him; nor to the Holy Spirit for his assistance; and though he addressed himself to God, yet in praise of himself, saying,
God I thank thee: there is no petition in this prayer of his for pardoning grace and mercy; nor larger measures of grace; nor for strength to perform duties, and to hold on to the end; nor for any favour whatever; nor is there any confession of sin in it. So that it scarce deserves the name of a prayer, for in it is only a thanksgiving: indeed, thanksgiving in prayer is right; and had he been a man that had received the grace of God, it would have been right in him to have given thanks to God for it, by which he was made to differ from others: nor would he have been blameworthy, had he thanked God for the good things which he had received from him, or which by his assistance he had done; but nothing of this kind is said by him: he thanks God, in order to exalt himself, and places his righteousness in his own works, and treats all other men in a censorious and disdainful manner; thanking God, or rather blessing himself, saying,
that I am not as other men are; and yet he was as other men, and no better: he was a sinner in Adam, as other men; and a sinner by nature, as others are; and had the same iniquities and corruptions in his heart, as others; and had no more goodness in him than other men, and as far from true real righteousness. Perhaps he means the Gentiles, whom the Jews looked upon as sinners, and the worst of men; and yet they were in no wise better than the Gentiles, as to their state and condition by nature: it was usual to call the Gentiles אחרים, "other men"; which phrase is sometimes explained by "the nations of the world" (a); and sometimes by the "Cuthites", or "Samaritans" (b); See Gill on Luk_5:29. ---
He goes on,
extortioners, unjust, adulterers; and yet all these characters belonged to the men of sect: the Pharisees were oppressors of the poor, devoured widows' houses, and extorted money from them, under a pretense of long prayers: they are aptly represented by the unjust steward, in Luk_16:1 and they were au unclean, unchaste, and an adulterous generation of men, Mat_12:39
or even as this publican; pointing to him at some distance, with great scorn and disdain.
This was his prayer, or thanksgiving. It may gratify the curiosity of some to have some other prayers of the Pharisees; and it may be worth while to compare them with this, between which there will appear a pretty deal of likeness.
"R. Nechunia ben Hakkana used to pray, when he went into the school, and when he came out, a short prayer: they said unto him, what is the goodness (or the excellency) of this prayer? he replied to them, when I go in, I pray, that no offence might come by means of me; and when I go out, "I give thanks" for my portion: when I go in, this is what I say, let it be thy good pleasure before thee, O Lord, my God, the God of my fathers, that I may not be angry with my colleagues, nor my colleagues be angry with me; that I may not pronounce that which is pure defiled, and that which is defiled, pure; that I may not forbid that which is lawful, nor pronounce lawful that which is forbidden; and that I may not be found ashamed in this world, and in the world to come: and when I come out, this is what I say; I confess before thee, (or I thank thee) O Lord God, and the God of my fathers, that thou hast given me my portion among those that sit in the schools, and synagogues, and hast not given me my portion in the theatres and shows: for I labour, and they labour; I watch, and they watch; I labour to inherit paradise, and they labour for the pit of corruption (c).''
And these two prayers the Jews were obliged to recite at their going in, and coming out of the synagogue.
"It is a tradition of R. Juda, saying, three things a man ought to say every day; blessed be thou, שלא עשני גוי, "that thou hast not made me a Gentile"; blessed art thou, that thou hast not made me an unlearned man (or one that is vain and foolish, uncivil and uncultivated); blessed art thou, that hast not made me a woman (d).''
In their prayer books (e), these thanksgivings stand thus:
"blessed art thou, O Lord our God, the King of the world, that thou hast made me an Israelite; (in some books it is, as before, that thou hast not made me a Gentile
blessed art thou, O Lord our God, the King of the world, that thou hast not made me a servant; blessed art thou, O Lord our God, the King of the world, that thou hast not made me a woman:''when the women, instead of this last, say:
"blessed art thou, O Lord our God, the King of the world, who has made me as he pleases.''
And very agreeable to one of these benedictions does the Ethiopic version render the prayer of the Pharisee here; "I thank thee, O Lord that thou hast not made me as other men".
(a) Gloss. in T. Bab. Bava Metzia, fol. 111. 2. (b) Gloss. in T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 52. 2. (c) T. Hieros. Beracot, fol. 7. 4. Vid. Misna Beracot, c. 4. sect. 2. & Maimon. & Bartenora in ib. (d) T. Hieros. Beracot, fol. 13. 2. (e) Seder Tephillot, ed. Basil. fol. 2. 2. ed. Amst. fol. 4. 1.
Gill.
At this present time I am walking on the lower plane...yes...otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum, or any forum for that matter. But I am like a spy that has seen the land...and I am testifying of it. I walked in Zion for a few days...and then a few years. Twice I was taken up to walk in the kingdom walk. Twice I was translated to walk like Jesus. But the first time I couldn't take such a self-less walk...no friends, no earthly ties. I wanted OUT. I became lonely in my ego. But the second time (9 years later) I lasted 2 years or so. I was walking in the keeping power of God...lots of daily miracles...a real revival, although not known to the world. It was a training time..a time to understand God's ways. My book is a revue of what I've learned of the high calling in Christ..AND how simple basic righteousness is. We don't have to be spiritual in Christ to INHERIT life. But if we wish to be with Christ NOW, and have freedom from sin, then we need to be crucified to this world and translated INTO the Beloved. Believe me or not...that's OK. It is for those who can be helped by my testimony. If you had the fear of the Lord you would not attack me so. It's not bad for me...but I don't want you to have to suffer on that day for my teaching.
I still can’t see it. If they no longer have Gods Spirit, I don’t know where the eternal life they will live comes from. I’ll work on it some. If we know anything, it’s that I grasp things very slooooowly, until no more questions pop up for me.
I DO see that satan and the angels who didn’t keep their first estate DO seem to have eternal life in them somehow. And I’m suspicious that the demons are the somehow still existing spirits of nephilim, don’t ask me how whatever dealings or union or dark arts between angel and human could make that happen, but I do suspect it of demons. I don’t think they’re fallen angels.
Johann
Well-Known Member
That's your assumption, and you are incorrect re "anything of the Spirit/spirit is out of context to me"
I said: Show me, in Scriptures, where the sinful nature is somehow "surgically removed, cut out" out of the believer.
The one quoting scripture out of context is you sister
Heb_4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
What has this verse to do with my question to you?
Johann
Well-Known Member
I don't go by peoples testimonies brother.
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