intentional sins?

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Randy Kluth

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I did not deny it. Read my statements again.

I did read it. I know you deny we have sin. But you said this, and it was to this I was responding:
"we don't any longer have to obey it."

Although I appreciate the sentiment, it is, in fact, suggesting we *never* have to sin. This is contrary to 1 John 1. Although Christ's redemption enables us to resist sin and to overcome sin, it is not possible that we can *eradicate* sin.

Your terminology is creating the confusion between what we're arguing. We don't actually *obey* sin. But we must sin, to some extent, simply because it is in us, and is something we're struggling to overcome.
 

Randy Kluth

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It could only bring a personal (and false) righteousness that we might be able to boast about. "mine own righteousness, which is of the law." This is Isaiah 64:6 righteousness.

The only true righteousness is that which we can't boast about, "the righteousness which is of God by faith." (Revelation 19:8 righteousness).

Philippians 3:9.

That is on its face false. You accuse God of making a false covenant with Israel, and of promising blessings to them that He never intended to give them.

But in reality, David in Psalm 119 sang the praises of the Law, in every way possible. This flies in the face of your comments. And you have no justification for rendering God's promises null and void.

I'm sorry that I have to continue repeating this. Paul is only talking about the usefulness of this righteousness in terms of obtaining Eternal Life. Paul was not denigrating the Law. How could he when Jesus had in Matt 5 claimed that those who diminished or devalued the Law would be called least in the Kingdom of God?

But Paul was only saying that the righteousness of the Law, though based on faith and accepted by God, could not obtain Eternal Life. The righteousness of the Law, though rendered legitimate by faith, required the sacrifice of Christ in order to be counted towards obtaining Eternal Life. You are advocating for a theology based on a vocabulary that is not being properly understood.
 
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CharismaticLady

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The Spirit of Christ would teach us today, not sinless perfection; but entire sanctification.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8.

The scripture has concluded all
(including the born again; for "all" means "all") under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Galatians 3:22.

For
all :rolleyes: have sinned, and come short (present tense) of the glory of God. Romans 3:23.

Yes, that is why Christ came: to take away our sin by giving us a new nature, making us new creations. You still believe Jesus didn't accomplish what he came to do, believing we are no better than the unsaved sinners those verses are talking about.
 

CharismaticLady

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Really,

1Jn_1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Done finished, according to you Jesus only did half the work,?? I guess when He said " it is finished" it really wasnt and HE was lying???

Philippians 3:16
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

Instead of the Law, the Spirit teaches us what is sin, because perfection goes far deeper than what the law told us. So we walk in the knowledge of truth we've already attained, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us of what we do not know yet, making us sinless, but not yet perfect.
 

Randy Kluth

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Yes, that is why Christ came: to take away our sin by giving us a new nature, making us new creations. You still believe Jesus didn't accomplish what he came to do, believing we are no better than the unsaved sinners those verses are talking about.

Nowhere do the Scriptures say that Jesus' purpose was to immediately exterminate the sin nature from believers. You will not be able to find any such Scriptural support for such a position! What you do is continue to refer to the *end game* of redemption in the resurrection. That's when Christ will indeed render us sinless. But never are we told that we become sinless *in this life!* That is, quite frankly, heretical. At the very least, it is unorthodox.
 

Randy Kluth

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Why what? What is difficult about what I'm saying? What I'm saying is precisely what the Bible says. The Law promised blessings for obedience. The blessings were initially recited on Mt. Gerazim. It is there. It is easy to read. These blessings, such as health and prosperity, and victory over enemies, constituted temporal blessings--not the promise of Eternal Life. Why are you having such trouble understanding my point?
 

CharismaticLady

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Nowhere do the Scriptures say that Jesus' purpose was to immediately exterminate the sin nature from believers. You will not be able to find any such Scriptural support for such a position! What you do is continue to refer to the *end game* of redemption in the resurrection. That's when Christ will indeed render us sinless. But never are we told that we become sinless *in this life!* That is, quite frankly, heretical. At the very least, it is unorthodox.

What is heretical is believing Jesus was powerless to make us sinless now. You believe until we have new bodies, we still sin willfully. What has the body to do with the mind. Knowing we are sinning while doing so, because we can't help it. If we didn't have the Spirit, that would be true. Our lusts would still control us.

The Word of God says of those who sin willfully as you believe: 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Do you notice we've already been sanctified (past tense).
 
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Randy Kluth

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Philippians 3:16
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

Instead of the Law, the Spirit teaches us what is sin, because perfection goes far deeper than what the law told us. So we walk in the knowledge of truth we've already attained, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us of what we do not know yet, making us sinless, but not yet perfect.

Do you even know what you're saying? What does this even mean: "sinless, but not yet perfect?"
 

CharismaticLady

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I asked you:
Why did Paul call the Law (the Ten Commandments), the ministry of death?

You answered:
With respect to Eternal Life, the Law prohibited us from partaking of it. The Law could bring us temporal blessings, but not eternal life. It could bring us righteousness, but not eternal righteousness.

I asked you why (couldn't the law bring us eternal life)?

And you answered with contempt.
Why what? What is difficult about what I'm saying? What I'm saying is precisely what the Bible says. The Law promised blessings for obedience. The blessings were initially recited on Mt. Gerazim. It is there. It is easy to read. These blessings, such as health and prosperity, and victory over enemies, constituted temporal blessings--not the promise of Eternal Life. Why are you having such trouble understanding my point?

You still can't answer why the Ten Commandments was too weak to give us eternal life.
 
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Randy Kluth

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What is heretical is believing Jesus was powerless to make us sinless now. You believe until we have new bodies, we still sin willfully. What has the body to do with the mind.

"What does the body have to do with the mind?" Why would you even ask that? Obviously, the body has *everything* to do with the mind! The brain is part of the body! The mind functions as a bodily function, and actually directs the body!

Yes, we still sin *willfully* when we are Christians. Every time you get excessively angry, or distort the truth out of biased interests, you are showing "willful sin" at work in your mind and body. You do things that are not in perfect accord with the Spirit of Christ.

I'm here to say that Christ understands that, and he still loves you. That is his grace. He brings us along, trying to temper us, trying to moderate what we do and say, to hopefully mitigate the damage we do to ourselves and others. This is God's grace, sister. And this is the life of a Christian--one of correction, of living by grace, of growing up, getting strong, and fighting to be aligned with Christ.

Knowing we are sinning while doing so, because we can't help it. If we didn't have the Spirit, that would be true. Our lusts would still control us.

Living by grace, and being imperfect is not the same thing as living regularly in our carnality and sin. You are conflating two very different things: living carnal lives and living flawed but spiritual lives generally. We are given a new nature so that we live spiritual lives, even while knowing we won't be perfect. We will fail at times, and actually everything we do will be slightly tainted by self interests.

But the idea is that we live *overcoming lives,* regularly choosing to live in relationship with God, in fellowship with Christians by the one Spirit. Our flawed personalities do not prevent us from living spiritual lives generally, from ministering by the Spirit.

The Word of God says of those who sin willfully as you believe: 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

That isn't what that passage is talking about. That's talking about apostasy from Christianity--not flaws in our spiritual walk! You do a terrible disservice in your theology, attributing apostasy to imperfect Christians, to Christians who sometimes err.

Do you notice we've already been sanctified (past tense).

Sanctification is the process by which God sets us aside from the carnal world to be instruments of his righteousness, through the covenant of Christ. Being hand selected by God for Salvation and for ministry does not require perfection.

We have Christ's atonement, not just to save us initially, but more, to continually cleanse us of our imperfections. That enables us to minister, and not be disqualified. We can, however, be disqualified, if we wander too far in the direction of apostasy.
 

Randy Kluth

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I asked you:

You answered:

I asked you why (couldn't the law bring us eternal life)?

And you answered with contempt.

You still can't answer why the Ten Commandments was too weak to give us eternal life.

I don't consider you contemptible. But I do consider your *position* contemptible. I've answered your question in about every post I've given you on this subject! The reason the Law, or the 10 Commandments, could not give Israel Eternal Life is because *it requires the atonement of Christ!* What about this don't you understand?
 

Randy Kluth

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Becoming like Christ (perfection) is not the same as Jesus taking away our sin.

The very definition of "removing sin" is "becoming like Christ." I don't know any other way to become sinless than becoming like Christ? But this will only happen in the resurrection. What I mean is, we can become like Christ now, but we cannot become 100% like Christ, or sinless, until the resurrection of our bodies.
 

CharismaticLady

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"What does the body have to do with the mind?" Why would you even ask that? Obviously, the body has *everything* to do with the mind! The brain is part of the body! The mind functions as a bodily function, and actually directs the body!

You are mistaking the brain for the mind. You can't see my mind. You can't dissect it.

Yes, we still sin *willfully* when we are Christians. Every time you get excessively angry, or distort the truth out of biased interests, you are showing "willful sin" at work in your mind and body. You do things that are not in perfect accord with the Spirit of Christ.

I guess you'll have to speak for yourself. You haven't described my life.

I'm here to say that Christ understands that, and he still loves you. That is his grace. He brings us along, trying to temper us, trying to moderate what we do and say, to hopefully mitigate the damage we do to ourselves and others. This is God's grace, sister. And this is the life of a Christian--one of correction, of living by grace, of growing up, getting strong, and fighting to be aligned with Christ.

That is not "His grace." You still believe it is unmerited favor. Oh well. You don't have to "fight" to be aligned with Christ. He has done all the work already by giving us His Own Spirit to dwell within us to naturally do His will.

Living by grace, and being imperfect is not the same thing as living regularly in our carnality and sin. You are conflating two very different things: living carnal lives and living flawed but spiritual lives generally. We are given a new nature so that we live spiritual lives, even while knowing we won't be perfect. We will fail at times, and actually everything we do will be slightly tainted by self interests.

You still don't know the totality of what Jesus accomplished on that cross. He defeated the works of Satan, while you believe he still lives in you. Well, the devil doesn't live in my nature. I partake of the divine nature, no devils allowed.

But the idea is that we live *overcoming lives,* regularly choosing to live in relationship with God, in fellowship with Christians by the one Spirit. Our flawed personalities do not prevent us from living spiritual lives generally, from ministering by the Spirit.

You've got it backwards. We live naturally according to our new nature. We would have to choose to quench the Spirit and go back to our vomit. As we grow in the fruit of the Spirit, our "flawed personalities" grow out of committing trespasses. We listen more than we talk, etc. But a true Christian is free from moral sins like "distorting the truth out of biased interests."

That isn't what that passage is talking about. That's talking about apostasy from Christianity--not flaws in our spiritual walk! You do a terrible disservice in your theology, attributing apostasy to imperfect Christians, to Christians who sometimes err.

You would like to think Hebrews 10:26-31 is talking about apostasy, and not willful sinning, but think again. Sometimes, I really have to wonder if you know anything about consistently walking in the Spirit, what with telling lies for self interests. Yikes.

Sanctification is the process by which God sets us aside from the carnal world to be instruments of his righteousness, through the covenant of Christ. Being hand selected by God for Salvation and for ministry does not require perfection.

We were set apart from the time the Spirit filled us, if He did... We've been sanctified (past tense). And we've been filled with the Spirit in order to minister. We are now being glorified to the image of Christ. That is what takes a lifetime.

We have Christ's atonement, not just to save us initially, but more, to continually cleanse us of our imperfections. That enables us to minister, and not be disqualified. We can, however, be disqualified, if we wander too far in the direction of apostasy.

I agree.
 
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CharismaticLady

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The very definition of "removing sin" is "becoming like Christ." I don't know any other way to become sinless than becoming like Christ? But this will only happen in the resurrection. What I mean is, we can become like Christ now, but we cannot become 100% like Christ, or sinless, until the resurrection of our bodies.

No He is making many like Himself NOW while we breathe.

Romans 8:
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 

CharismaticLady

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I don't consider you contemptible. But I do consider your *position* contemptible. I've answered your question in about every post I've given you on this subject! The reason the Law, or the 10 Commandments, could not give Israel Eternal Life is because *it requires the atonement of Christ!* What about this don't you understand?

And what did the atonement of Christ accomplish?