"invert" theory I got

[DaDad]

Hi DanielTheSmith,

When you build a house, do you start with the window trim? -- No, you start with the foundation. So too, when you build a Scriptural understanding. This I would propose that you start with Daniel 2, which provides the sequence of world empires from Start to Finish. But in this, one must be leery of false teachers (potentially, including ME).


Chapter 2 provides the sequence of world empires. Toward this, the "commentators" insist that the Iron and Clay are the Roman & Revived Roman, so they end up with a false (and I'll explain in a moment) doctrine:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4a. Iron, Roman
4b. Clay, Revived Roman

If this were true, then ALL Scriptural views (i.e., Plan, Side, Top, Back, Cut-Away) would agree, but Dan. 2:45 adds an additional perspective (much like looking a drafting side view):

the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold

... which is to say: 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4 Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"

Dan. 2:41
And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.


And of course many in this Forum DEMAND that there are NOT Five world empires, but when challenged to explain the Intelligent Design of the 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, they DO NOT. -- Please note that GM uses "intelligent design" in determining the firing order of the pre-LS series 8-cylinder engine, of: 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2. And just as the engine will not fire with a 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 distributor wiring, neither with the sequence of World Empires be accurate without understanding the 4,3,5,2,1.



So I propose that the significance of the 4,3,5,2,1 is that the IRON is separated from the CLAY by the insertion of the BRONZE, so that NO ONE would mistakenly assume a 4a/4b scenario:

the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold



But before we close this point, please be aware that we ARE in a "divided kingdom", consisting of three superpowers for which ALL follow the Roman Representative Republic model, exactly as the Pledge of Allegiance testifies:


... and to the REPUBLIC, for which it stands, one nation under GOD, indivisible ...


Thus there IS a residue of Iron in the "divided" feet of Clay!




So now, having a FIVE World Empire scenario, we've solved one of three foundational aspects to Daniel 11.



Are you ok so far?


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[DanielTheSmith]

So it's like "right now" has the Roman residue on us?

Does that possibly have any correlation with Roman Catholicism influencing the 3 Empires, or something?

I think I'm with you fairly good. I've been slowly reading through your thread on it. I got that there's 5 Empires at least. lol


Thought I'd put this Youtube link to a simple 4 min vid I made about my "invert" theory, in case anyone feels like watching.
I've added new info and it's more simply put.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80NL4IrrNm4

Here's an updated timeline:

 

[DaDad]

So it's like "right now" has the Roman residue on us?

Does that possibly have any correlation with Roman Catholicism influencing the 3 Empires, or something?

Hi DanielTheSmith,

Thanks for the note back. -- I have to look at your video this evening when I have a little more time.

Regarding the IRON in the Feet of CLAY, I would propose that the Roman Empire was never conquered and replaced by a new government model. As such the disparate kingdoms, fifedoms, and regions ceased sending their taxes to Rome, and simply started governing themselves. As such, we see that IRON residue in most governments today:

... and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation under GOD, indivisible, ...



Regarding the Roman Catholic query, I would propose that some assign the Rev. 17 scarlet beast to the Catholic church, -- which I believe is simply Religious Fearmongering run amok. From all my grasp of Bible Prophecy, I find absolutely NO religious inference in the prophecies of Daniel, or in Revelation 13 or 17. However, there is a Metropolis Model which Nebuchadnezzar conceived and which exists today to the extent that a citizen in the United States of America could not buy an 18oz soft drink in New York City.


[SIZE=12pt]The Babylonian Empire was “the first true metropolis in western history, a business as well as an administrative center,”[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt][1][/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] -- the foundation which governments are still built upon today. The Babylonians controlled trade and commerce across western Asia, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf, building highways, legislating business, and beautifying the capital.[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt][2][/SIZE]



[SIZE=8pt][1][/SIZE] John B. Christopher and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, p. 35


[SIZE=8pt][2][/SIZE] Will Durant, Story of Civilization: Part II, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 223-224





Thus we should find the scarlet beast upon which the woman sits.



And finally, if you don't mind, -- Daniel's seventieth week pertained to the 9/13/1993 Dayton/Oslo Peace Accord as signed by Rabin, Arafat, & Clinton, which expired in Sept. 2000. As such people who don't under stand Daniel's seventy weeks mistakenly assign the seventieth week to the "Tribulation". But again, this is an incorrect church doctrine.

If you want to go through the foundational aspects of Daniel 9, I would be glad to provide the scholars observations, as expertly documented in Walvoords "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation".



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[DanielTheSmith]

I was watching the new Perry Stone, Manna-Fest, and he was talking about the 7 heads on the dragon in Rev. So those are like Empires, right? So, is that going to be like 7 world leaders emerging here pretty soon?

Yeah, sure! Thanks, Bro. Let me hear Walvoords foundational aspects on Daniel 9. I googled it, looks like a pretty major book.

So, I know you listen to J.R. Church (I think he's dead, right? w/e). Who else you listen to? Are you into Tom Horn, or Chuck Missler, or anyone like that?

On Perry Stone's "Breath of the Hollies", (I'm pretty sure that's it) he relates The Temple to the body, with scripture, through parables. Then I saw this Dahboo77 on Youtube guy's vid on "The Origin of Man" and he talks about the body being like The Temple and a DNA molecule being six-sided like the missing cap on the pyramids (the cornerstone/Jesus). The molecule's for the god Molec, and DNA is a mixed up version of Dan, for the Tribe of Dan blood. Then he talks about the word Lucifer being misinterpreted in the Bible or something. I know I threw a bunch of crap at ya there, but does any of it sound familiar at all? If not, please disregard. lol

 

[DaDad]

I was watching the new Perry Stone, Manna-Fest, and he was talking about the 7 heads on the dragon in Rev. So those are like Empires, right? So, is that going to be like 7 world leaders emerging here pretty soon?

Hi DanielTheSmith,

No disrespect to Perry Stone, but what value is a person who simply parrots the misunderstandings of others?

Take the Daniel 2:45 sequence 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. I would propose (and I stand alone, to my best knowledge) that GOD provided this sequence to separate the CLAY from the IRON to discount a 1,2,3,4a/4b, -- which virtually EVERYONE ignorantly teaches.

So aside from Scripture, do we send our taxes to ROME? Do our elected officials come from ROME? Does ROME still exist, or does ITALY occupy that ancient geography?

Clearly the Roman Empire was not conquered, and when it dissolved the disparate kingdoms, fifedoms, and regions kept the only form of government they knew. So today we are still stuck with that Representive Republic:

... and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation under GOD, indivisible ...

So now that Chapter 2 is defined as having FIVE world empires, for which the FIFTH (Clay) is "divided" between approximately 3-superpowers:

Dan 2:41
And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom

... and where Chapter 7 defines FOUR Beasts, (Lion/Eagle; Bear; Leopard; & Dreadful), we can know that because FIVE ≠ FOUR, that the FOUR must provide depictions of the "divided" participants:

1. Gold, Babylon
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, Divided
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China

So those are the seven heads on the BEAST. And who is the BEAST?

-- 8. "Dreadful", United Nations -- which "was and is not" because it has NO Populous, NO Geography, NO Army, etc.

And where it says "One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound", that will occur when Russia attacks the Middle East, and then China spanks them. And it's my expectation that after this occurs, the world will clamor for "peace", which the U.N. will offer. And then the U.N. will "heal" the mortally wounded Russian nation.

Please note that the Rev. 13 beast is depicted as follows:

Mouth of a Lion, -- U.K./U.S., who is the trade, financial, innovation leader
Body of the Leopard (Tiger), -- China, which has the greatest mass of population
Feet of the Bear, -- Russia, -- who compared with Canada, China, & the U.S., who only have 3M sq. miles --, has 8M sq. miles

But what we HAVEN'T talked about are the Ten Nations (Ten Horns/Ten Toes). So let's look at that:

Permanent Membership in the Security Council
1. U.K.
2. U.S.
3. France
4. Russia
5. China

NOMINATED to Permanent Membership in the Security Council (as of 8/93*):
6. Germany -- economic power
7. Japan -- economic power
8. Brazil -- regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria -- regional representative for Africa
10. India -- regional representative for the Near East

[SIZE=8pt] [/SIZE]* “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46


DanielTheSmith, I hope this helped expand your foundational understanding of Prophecy.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[DanielTheSmith]

Whoa, DaDad! You broke that down beautifully! I'm actually gonna copy and paste your post, so I can have it for later reference. lol

The "Russia attacking The Mid-East and getting spanked by China" part is a fascinating take. Seems like that'd be a pretty good scenario for Americans, but I can totally see it, since they're all over there right next to each other.

That Ukraine situation's pretty fascinating right now. I read where the country Georgia over there's trying to get into NATO, and John Kerry's lobbying for it and stuff.
Here's the article: http://www.eurasianet.org/node/68092

And in 2011, Russia said Georgia's entry to NATO could lead to war.
Here's the article: http://en.ria.ru/world/20111208/169485481.html

And I heard maybe we're trying to push for Georgia's entry into NATO right now, all of a sudden, because Russia has the Syria and Ukraine situation going, so they're spread more thin. lol

Thanks again for that break-down, DaDad.

 

[DaDad]

Whoa, DaDad!

Hi DanielTheSmith,

One thing I didn't provide is the "numbers' analysis, for your consideration:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"
6. Stone, Millennial
7. Heaven, Eternity

... or another way:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China
-- 8. "dreadful", U.N.
9. Stone, Millennial
10. Heaven, Eternity


So if I understand the rudimentary concepts, 7 is "perfection", and 10 is "completion". thus one should arrive to "perfectly complete".




With Best Regards,
DD

 

[DanielTheSmith]

Well, you definitely got the Empires down. lol... I love how even know you had a good grasp on it, you still figured it out even more completely. Even know I believed it before, getting to see the in-depth break-down of how every piece goes w/ the verses and even the numbers part and stuff, really helps me see the prophetic supernaturalness of the Bible. I mean, residue on divided feet!?!...That stuff's the coolest ever, for me.

DaDad, this might be too broad of a question, but I was wondering what would you say is like, the biggest misconception that people have, when saying there's a 7 yr Trib?

Are you on board with the pre-trib rapture?

 

[DaDad]

what would you say is like, the biggest misconception that people have, when saying there's a 7 yr Trib?

Are you on board with the pre-trib rapture?

Hi DTS,

To understand the "7-year-tribulation", one must identify the basis. Once one identifies the basis, one must assess the foundational aspects BEFORE arriving to a conclusion. And unfortunately, most people jump to conclusions without any foundational understanding. So here's the foundation of the seventy weeks (inconcise Masculine gender text), -- where the "seventieth week" = the "tribulation week", false doctrine:



In the book, “Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation,” John Walvoord writes regarding the interpretation of the seventy “weeks":


1. Per Walvoord: The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... " p. 217

2. Per Walvoord:"...Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all.”, P.218

3. Per Walvoord: "...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217

4. Per Walvoord: "...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218

5. Per Montgomery: "... efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology.", P. 217

6. Per Walvoord: "Some amillenarians, however, use a literal year time unit for the first sixty-nine weeks but an indefinite period for the last seven years, as in the case of Philip Mauro...", P. 218

7. Per Montgomery: "... the great Catholic chronographers ... as well as those of all subsequent chronographers (including the great Scalinger and Sir Isaac Newton) have failed.. And Edward Young too, finds no satisfactory conclusion for the seventy sevens ... and leaves it without a satisfactory explanation.", P. 217

8. Per Young, regarding "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem": "This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God." , P. 224 -

John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971


9. Per Newton: "We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewton.ca/daniel_apocalypse/pt1ch10.html


So where so many are so quick to assign the "seventieth week" to the "tribulation", they have no foundation for any such conclusion. And where Rev. 13:5 spells it out in plain English, they dismiss it as though it were the "last half of Daniel's seventieth week":

Rev. 13:5
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.


So now maybe we should go through what the Seventy durations-of-time actually depict.


With Best Regards,
DD



PS -- Only one discussion at a time!

 

[DanielTheSmith]

hmmm... interesting. I guess it is kind of an assumption (7yr trib).

So the Seventy durations-of-time are the events that have been happening the last century? I'd love to hear those. That puts Jesus coming back this 2018, right?

 

[DaDad]

Hi DTS,

hmmm... interesting. I guess it is kind of an assumption (7yr trib).

So the Seventy durations-of-time are the events that have been happening the last century? I'd love to hear those. That puts Jesus coming back this 2018, right?

Daniel 9 has NOTHING to do with either the Tribulation or the Return of Jesus. It only addresses the calling of the Nation of Israel, the "Father" of Israel, the Prime Minister who was assassinated, the Dayton/Oslo 7-year Peace Accord, and the fact that the a/c "shall come".

So to start, one should discover the "going forth of the word", which Young says is NOT from a man, but from GOD. So take the findings of J.R. Church, per his book "Hidden Prophecies in the Psalms", and read this 19th Book of the Bible (for the 1900s); Chapter 24 (chapter for year -- such that Book 19, Chapter 24 = 1924) to discover that Word to establish and rebuild Jerusalem.

It's either depicted or it isn't. -- Which did YOU find?


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[DanielTheSmith]

So does this verse mean Rabin's generation?
6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob.

Why 1924? Isn't Rabin born in '22?

Is it because it links up w/ this verse?:


24 “Seventy weeks[a] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[b] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

 

[DaDad]

Hi DTS,

So does this verse mean Rabin's generation?

For nearly 2,000 years, the Jews have been scattered. In the 1880's some Jews envisioned a gathering to a nation. This was formally declared by GOD for the year 1924, in which era a homeland was politically decreed (1918 Balfour Declaration), immigration waves (aliya's) were occurring (1920's), Israeli leadership was being formed (David BenGurion), and a nation finally established (1948).

Did you find GOD's declaration in Psalms 24? (Please note that if this were an ancient event the gates would be "modern". Conversely, if this applies to an "modern" event, the gates must be "ancient".



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[DanielTheSmith]

Well, I guess he's declaring the gates to stay open.

Does Him being The God of Armies come into play?

What about when you say, "This was formally declared by GOD for the year 1924"? Is there anything more w/ that?
Is it from that Daniel 9: 24 verse?

It's probably all in that JR Church book, "Hidden Prophecies in the Psalms", huh?

hhmmm... did a google search and found a lil' something on it. This is good stuff. Thanks a lot, DaDad!

 

[DaDad]

Hi DTS,

Well, I guess he's declaring the gates to stay open.

Psalms 24
7 Lift up your heads, you gates;
be lifted up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
8 Who is this King of glory?
The Lord strong and mighty,
the Lord mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, you gates;
lift them up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
10 Who is he, this King of glory?
The Lord Almighty—
he is the King of glory.

For you to understand, you must first read. As such, there NOTHING about staying open. Is your Bible written in a foreign language which you haven't yet mastered?

What about when you say, "This was formally declared by GOD for the year 1924"? Is there anything more w/ that?

Step #1. Did you find the "going forth of the word to establish and rebuild Jersalem", which Young observed, but was unable to resolve (the sign of an honest scholar)?



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[DanielTheSmith]

Well, I kinda tried to cheat a lil', but not really, and look at a write-up on it. Didn't see this verse right away, so I stopped reading the rest.

I hate to sound like a retard, but are you saying "lift up" is the going forth? And "ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in" refers to Jerusalem?

I kinda get this part, "Please note that if this were an ancient event the gates would be "modern". Conversely, if this applies to an "modern" event, the gates must be "ancient", that you said. But I'm definitely missing something with it to, I think.

 

[DaDad]

... I'm definitely missing something with it too, I think.

Hi DTS,

I think if you re-read the chapter, you should find three things:

1. GOD is speaking from HIS authority.
2. HE calls a people
3. He calls for a nation.

Thus what Young observed but couldn't resolve, we can appreciate BOTH. And if this is correct, we should find some HISTORICAL fulfillment:


As early as the 1880’s European and Arabian Jews realized the vision of emigrating to Palestine. By the year 1924 there had been three ‘aliya’s’, or immigration waves. These first three waves provided a population base of 120,000 settlers. The fourth wave, from 1924 to 1929, increased this populous by over 57% to 186,000. This net population total is even more impressive when considering that approximately 33% of the arriving Jews re-emigrated. By 1948 the Jewish population measured at 650,000.[1]#_ftn1



[1] Amos Elon, Israelis Founders and Sons, Rinehart and Winston, NY, 1971, p. 135







So next we should look for the "coming of an anointed one" in 1931.


With Best Regards,
DD


PS I don't know if I mentioned this yet, but if you look at Daniel 9:2 you should find two aspects:

1. Where Daniel "perceived" inthe "books", the commentators treat the word "perceived" as though Daniel has read Jeremiah Chapter 25, -- under the context of the word "shama". However, that's NOT the word Daniel used. He used the word "biyn", which has the FULL inference of using SOLOMON wisdom. (Please read 1 Kings 3 to find that when GOD asked Solomon what HE should give him, Solomon asked for SHAMA. And of course GOD said HE would give him what he asked for, BUT GOD DID NOT give Solomon what he asked for. Instead GOD gave him BIYN, which no man before him or no man after him shall have such BIYN. So when Daniel "perceived in the books", Daniel actually read the 24th Chapter of PSALMS.

2. Still in Daniel 9:2, you should note that the seventy are YEARS. And then in verse 24 that the "years" are defined in the inconcise Masculine gender text, which suggests BOTH year/week durations for the total of seventy years/week.

 

[DanielTheSmith]

Alright, cool. I think I'm with you so far.

I was wondering what book it was where Daniel perceived.

I just read 1 Kings 3.

So BIYN points to Psalms 24, and SHAMA to the Jeremiah chapter?

So BIYN and SHAMA mean kinda close to the same thing? God gave him BIYN which has riches & honor mixed with wisdom, maybe?

I think I might be ready to hear the "coming of an annointed one" part.

 

[DaDad]

So BIYN points to Psalms 24,

Hi DTS,

Dan. 9:2 says "biyn", which is Solomon wisdom. As such Daniel DID NOT read the 25th Chapter of Jeremiah, but somewhere else in "the books". Do you think that Daniel might have read the 24th Chapter of Psalms to find the "going forth of the word to establish and rebuild Jerusalem"?

Next, where Young, Keit, & Kliefoth agree that the word "shibiym" (interpreted as "weeks") is in the unusual Masculine gender text. -- which is inconcise--, we should perceive that in American slang, a "cool" car does not suggest a literal depressed thermal gradient (i.e., "cold"). In fact "cool" suggests something all together different. So too the "shibiym" which is NOT a "week", but rather a duration of time which must be measured on other grounds. And given that 9:2 says "seventy years", one could presume that 69 durations are literal "years", and only the seventieth shabuwa (the concise Feminine) is a literal week. Thus the encompassing "seventy weeks" uses the inconcise Masculine gender text which includes sixty nine "years" and the seventieth "week".


So now, we should look for an "anointed one" who came seven years after 1924.

Dan. 9:25 -- RSV
25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.

Please note that most Versions present the seven and the sixty-two as though the AUTHOR had intended to present the value of ~sixty-nine~, for which Newton says does "violence" to Scripture, for no society uses numbers in that fashion. And to prove the point, I would propose that a "hammer" does not cost $3 and $18, plus tax. It costs $21.


And regarding the "anointed one", (מָשִׁיחַ (mashiyach) please be aware that ANYONE who is made King or Priest is anointed with oil. So where some errantly presume that this is a reference to Jesus, -- IT IS NOT:


Lev 4:3
If the priest that is anointed H4899 do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.




So far so good?

DD

 

[DanielTheSmith]

Alright, so David Ben-Gurion is the 1st Israeli Prime Minister. Does it go with a Psalms verse? 7 years, huh?

So he's a priest that is anointed. I think I'm pretty good with that.

As far as leaders being anointed officials by God. Does that go for Dictators and everything? Or is it just an Israel or "nation under God" thing? You know the verse about obeying elected officials? Say, for example, would Sadaam Husein have fell under the category of "elected official"? Did you ever hear how for the 2012 inaugeration, they left out the "under God" part for Obama's swearing in? I wonder if that changed anything.