Is any one really happy here?

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Philip James

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Just Anyone can say, "I'm approved by the Apostles!" It's pretty convenient because none of them are here to say otherwise

Hello marks,

Indeed. Which is why the Church only recognizes those who have been approved (ordained) by a valid bishop as members of the presbytery, and by bishops to the episcopate.
This is the Tradition of the apostles, as one will find in all the apostolic communities, as St Ignatius, bishop of Antioch (circa 100 AD) demonstrates here:

shun divisions, as the beginning of evils.
Do ye all follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed
the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to
the deacons pay respect, as to God's commandment. Let
no man do aught of things pertaining to the Church
apart from the bishop. Let that be held a valid
eucharist which is under the bishop or one to whom he
shall have committed it.
8:2 Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let
the people be; even as where Jesus may be, there is
the universal Church.


(Letter to the Smyrneans)

Peace!
 

marks

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Hello marks,

Indeed. Which is why the Church only recognizes those who have been approved (ordained) by a valid bishop as members of the presbytery, and by bishops to the episcopate.
This is the Tradition of the apostles, as one will find in all the apostolic communities, as St Ignatius, bishop of Antioch (circa 100 AD) demonstrates here:

shun divisions, as the beginning of evils.
Do ye all follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed
the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to
the deacons pay respect, as to God's commandment. Let
no man do aught of things pertaining to the Church
apart from the bishop. Let that be held a valid
eucharist which is under the bishop or one to whom he
shall have committed it.
8:2 Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let
the people be; even as where Jesus may be, there is
the universal Church.


(Letter to the Smyrneans)

Peace!
I realize that this is your stance. One man approves another who approves another who approves another. And the claim is that this is from the Holy Spirit. So is it?

By their fruits you shall know them. Having seen the fruits, well, what more is to be said?
 

marks

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shun divisions, as the beginning of evils.
Do ye all follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed
the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to
the deacons pay respect, as to God's commandment. Let
no man do aught of things pertaining to the Church
apart from the bishop. Let that be held a valid
eucharist which is under the bishop or one to whom he
shall have committed it.
8:2 Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let
the people be; even as where Jesus may be, there is
the universal Church.

Yes . . . said by the "bishop". You Must Obey Me!! Jesus is where the Bishop is. Sure. Let no man do anything regarding the church apart from the Bishop??
 

Enoch111

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Indeed. Which is why the Church only recognizes those who have been approved (ordained) by a valid bishop as members of the presbytery, and by bishops to the episcopate.
If Catholics bishops were truly valid, here is what we would see (1) not one of them would be practicing pedophilia or homosexuality and (2) not one of them would be protecting the priests who engaged in these unlawful acts.

"Bishops and other leaders of the Roman Catholic Church in Pennsylvania covered up child sexual abuse by more than 300 priests over a period of 70 years, persuading victims not to report the abuse and law enforcement not to investigate it, according to a searing report issued by a grand jury on Tuesday."
Catholic Priests Abused 1,000 Children in Pennsylvania, Report Says
 

Philip James

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I realize that this is your stance. One man approves another who approves another who approves another. And the claim is that this is from the Holy Spirit. So is it?

Dear marks,

It is not my stance. it has been the stance of the Church for 2000 years (as Ignatius' letters demonstrate!). And yes, it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that the offices of deacons, presbyter and bishop are received. They cannot be taken, they must be given to one by the Church. No one can anoint themselves...

By their fruits you shall know them. Having seen the fruits, well, what more is to be said?

The fruit of the Church? a billion plus souls baptised into Christ, who with one voice, and one heart, and one mind, offer themselves to our Almighty Father, through, with and in His Son, our High Priest and Saviour, our Lord, Jesus Christ!

and for 1000 years we changed the world, but the falling away is in full swing now, and now will evil has its hour, and the Church must walk in the passion of Her Master, be despised, stripped, beaten and crucified...

Peace be with you!

Christ is Risen!
Alleluia!
 

Philip James

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Yes . . . said by the "bishop". You Must Obey Me!! Jesus is where the Bishop is. Sure.

Yes, said by one made by bishop at the hands of the apostles...
And to be fair, he was instructing the letter recipients to obey their bishop and not himself.
.
unity with the bishop of a particular territory is unity with the the Church. You will find it thus in every apostolic community. I would challenge you to find any 2000 year old community established by an apostle that teaches otherwise...


Let no man do anything regarding the church apart from the Bishop??

Indeed!

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Peace!
 

marks

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marks said:

I realize that this is your stance. One man approves another who approves another who approves another. And the claim is that this is from the Holy Spirit. So is it?


Dear marks,

It is not my stance. it has been the stance of the Church for 2000 years (as Ignatius' letters demonstrate!). And yes, it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that the offices of deacons, presbyter and bishop are received. They cannot be taken, they must be given to one by the Church. No one can anoint themselves...

Hi Philip,

But it is your stance. You are here promoting it to me, and you are citing others in the church as the authority (Ignatius). So this is your stance, and you give an appeal to authority, the church.

Your claim is that those whom your church leader appoint are in fact appointed by the Holy Spirit through them. Is that is all cases?

The fruit of the Church? a billion plus souls baptised into Christ, who with one voice, and one heart, and one mind, offer themselves to our Almighty Father, through, with and in His Son, our High Priest and Saviour, our Lord, Jesus Christ!

Is that the only fruit? I can think of quite a few things about the CC that don't really strike me as being Spirit led. Where's the dose of reality here?

Much love!
 

marks

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And to be fair, he was instructing the letter recipients to obey their bishop and not himself.
Yeah.

I'm a Boss. Be sure to obey the Boss, whomever it may be.


Let no man do anything regarding the church apart from the Bishop??


Indeed!

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Peace!

But you are saying whomever is not with your Bishop . . .

Indeed, Whomever is not with Jesus . . . don't change this to be about a bishop.

Much love!
 

Waiting on him

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Yes, said by one made by bishop at the hands of the apostles...
And to be fair, he was instructing the letter recipients to obey their bishop and not himself.
.
unity with the bishop of a particular territory is unity with the the Church. You will find it thus in every apostolic community. I would challenge you to find any 2000 year old community established by an apostle that teaches otherwise...




Indeed!

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Peace!
Hi Philip,

Take a look at Catholic influence on meso America when the Spaniard moved into that region in the name of their Bishop.
 

historyb

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No - I used exactly the word I wanted to.

Not you, me. I thought my grammar was bad but I checked google and the word seems right. At this point I feel it best not to communicate with you as it produces bitterness, frustration, and anger things at this very bad time I do not need extra of and things that can take my mind off God. You do as you will and go with God.
 
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historyb

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Paul Christensen

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Everywhere :)
By the way, do you agree with the Archbishop of Canterbury rejecting the report that the only Scriptural marriage union is between a man and a woman; and is fully supporting same sex marriage?

Is that not going to bring a major division in the Anglican church, and the American Episcipal church (when it agrees with the Archbishop), like it did with the Presbyterian church that accepted homosexuals into its clergy?
 

kc_hhsl

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Not you, me. I thought my grammar was bad but I checked google and the word seems right. At this point I feel it best not to communicate with you as it produces bitterness, frustration, and anger things at this very bad time I do not need extra of and things that can take my mind off God. You do as you will and go with God.

De Colores
 

historyb

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Well I am not Episcopalian and believe that marriage is only between a man and a women, I would say there most likely will be a split. You might say what? I am a Charismatic Episcopalian which is not a part of the ECUSA or Anglican Church. :)
 

Paul Christensen

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Well I am not Episcopalian and believe that marriage is only between a man and a women, I would say there most likely will be a split. You might say what? I am a Charismatic Episcopalian which is not a part of the ECUSA or Anglican Church. :)
Great! There was a major split in the Presbyterian Church of NZ when gay clergy were accepted. There are restrictions though. Although existing clergy who are guy are allowed to continue their ministry, gay candidates will not be accepted for training or ordination.

But many did leave the mainstream Presbyterian church, and breakaway Free Presbyterian churches started up that would not accept gay clergy or same sex marriage.

There is pressure on churches, because NZ Law changed to acknowledge the legality of same sex Civil Union, and ministers who refuse to marry same sex couples may be taken to task for breaking the law. It is already sort of outlawed for ministers to preach against homosexuality under the notion of "hate speech".
 
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Philip James

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Enoch111

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There is pressure on churches, because NZ Law changed to acknowledge the legality of same sex Civil Union, and ministers who refuse to marry same sex couples may be taken to task for breaking the law. It is already sort of outlawed for ministers to preach against homosexuality under the notion of "hate speech".
New Zealand wants to be even more politically correct than other Leftists, and the government would sooner bow to Islamists than support Christians and oppose their oppression by Radical Islam. And since they do not have a Constitution like that of the USA, the government can get away with muzzling free speech (or at least hope to do so). But there is nothing to stop preachers from preaching the truth in spite of all that nonsense. And there is nothing to stop Christians from bringing this matter to the Supreme Court and challenging the government.
 

historyb

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Great! There was a major split in the Presbyterian Church of NZ when guy clergy were accepted. There are restrictions though. Although existing clergy who are guy are allowed to continue their ministry, gay candidates will not be accepted for training or ordination.

But many did leave the mainstream Presbyterian church, and breakaway Free Presbyterian churches started up that would not accept gay clergy or same sex marriage.

There is pressure on churches, because NZ Law changed to acknowledge the legality of same sex Civil Union, and ministers who refuse to marry same sex couples may be taken to task for breaking the law. It is already sort of outlawed for ministers to preach against homosexuality under the notion of "hate speech".

Wow.