Show your respect by through the light on ignorance, not by patting on the back, with somehow it will be, because the Lord loves all. Because the Lord is also the Judge.
Is Being Catholic And Being Born-Again The Same Thing ?
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Selene
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"Show your respect by through the light on ignorance?" What does that mean? Show respect to the person....yes. But what is "show respect by through the light on ignorance?"
Whether you call yourself a Catholic or a Protestant, a Christian or Pagan, a Jew or a Greek. If you have accepted Jesus as Lord of your life by faith and believe that he is the Son of God, he rose again and sits on the right-hand of God forever interceding for us...you are saved. Romans 8:9-10, Acts 2:38. If you are saved, the bible says that the promised, Holy Spirit will come and make his home in you Galatians 3:14, Romans 8:1.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
Whether you believe that water symbolizes " baptism" or "the word of God" is irrelevant...what is important here, is that no-one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven without the Spirit. As verse 6 clearly states "that which is born of Spirit [Holy Spirit] is spirit [our spirit]. This indicates to me that our spirit is reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit that dwells in us. [IMO this is where the sanctification process begins as stated in [2 Corinthians 3:18].
A born-again believer is one who is led by the Holy Spirit
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Amen Rocky...I agree!
Shalom!
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Whether you call yourself a Catholic or a Protestant, a Christian or Pagan, a Jew or a Greek. If you have accepted Jesus as Lord of your life by faith and believe that he is the Son of God, he rose again and sits on the right-hand of God forever interceding for us...you are saved. Romans 8:9-10, Acts 2:38. If you are saved, the bible says that the promised, Holy Spirit will come and make his home in you Galatians 3:14, Romans 8:1.
2 Corintians 3:17-18
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
Whether you believe that water symbolizes " baptism" or "the word of God" is irrelevant...what is important here, is that no-one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven without the Spirit. As verse 6 clearly states "that which is born of Spirit [Holy Spirit] is spirit [our spirit]. This indicates to me that our spirit is reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit that dwells in us. [IMO this is where the sanctification process begins as stated in [2 Corinthians 3:18].
A born-again believer is one who is led by the Holy Spirit
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Amen Rocky...I agree!
Shalom!
Very true!
We I sure can see you clearly by your hateful fruit, It is too bad - we could have learned something together,
Slander ! or you do not know what you are talking about, you should go study what the Catholics doctrine is. not just what some fool tells you.
Mr. Rosenburger, as far as what she says about Catholic doctrine, she is more correct than incorrect.
Many Catholic beliefs either are not supported by scripture or flat out run contrary to God's word.
These are simple facts.
Many Catholic beliefs either are not supported by scripture or flat out run contrary to God's word.
These are simple facts.
Selene
New Member
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Quote what? You've already rejected the scripture I provided - if you reject the Bible, what else is there to quote?
Choosing love is repenting. If we all loved perfectly there would be no sin.
It isn't so much Catholic doctrine (nothwithstanding the Marian heresy) that is wrong, but Catholic practice.
- Correction, "SOME" Catholic doctrine is supported by Scripture.
And if it isn't supported by Scripture, then who cares if it is supported by history?
- Catholic doctrine (supported by current and previous Popes) states that if you die wearing the Scapular, you will be in heaven within 30 days. It says this started by the 'Blessed Virgin' appearing to Simon Stock and handing it to him with that explanation.
- Catholic doctrine states that Mary was taken up into heaven whole, without dying, although scripture doesn't support that idea...at all.
- Catholic doctrine states that Mary never had any children after Jesus, although Scripture itself shows that she did.
- Catholic doctrine states that every single solitary time a priest blesses bread and wine it becomes the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus. Scientific evidence disproving this aside, Scripture states that Jesus was appointed to die ONCE for our sins.
(Just how many times does Jesus have to die for our sins?)
- Catholic doctrine preaches the idea of Purgatory, although that runs contrary to Scipture (Heb. 9:27).
- Catholic doctrine dictates that we pray to people who have died and even Mary. This although there is no Scripture to support the concept and Jesus Himself, who loves us better than anyone and who showed it by dying on the cross for us, said He is sitting at the right hand of the Father to intercede for us.
These are the same people that gave us "Papal Infallibility" until it was shown on a grand scale that that wasn't even close to being true.
Sorry, Scripture trumps the ideas of men, and mere men alone are behind these Catholic beliefs.
Selene
New Member
Catholic doctrine is supported by both Scripture and History. You should care that it's supported by history because that is what is actually written in Scripture.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
As anyone can see, there are many things that Jesus did, which were never written down, but these things were passed down through the apostles who knew them. And that is why we listened to St. Paul when he instructed us to hold fast to the TRADITIONS that he taught us....TRADITIONS that were not written down but passed down orally.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
I rest my case on this one.
Incorrect. The scapula is a liturgical vestment of the priest developed from the ordinary clothing of the laity. Just as the stole is a sign of priestly dignity, the scapula is a sign of the monk. In the west, the scapula was at first nothing but an apron worn by laborers. From this developed the monastic garment. To educate yourself more on the scapula is the weblink below:
http://www.newadvent...then/13508b.htm
Scripture shows that Elijah and Enoch were taken up into Heaven (See 2 Kings 2:1 and Genesis 5:24). So, you see, it is possible for God to take a person up into Heaven just as He did with Elijah and Enoch. Catholics understood that Jesus would never leave His mother behind to rot on the earth. Afterall, that is His own mother and Jesus followed all the commandments especially the one that says "Honour your Mother and Father." Jesus was the perfect Son. He honored His mother because He would never leave her behind (See Revelations 12:1). St. John who took in Mary was the one who saw Mary taken up into Heaven. Both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church kept this 2000 year old tradition that was passed down orally by word of mouth. In the eastern Church, they call it the "Dormition of Mary." In the west, we call it the "Assumption of Mary."
This is incorrect. Scripture never showed that Mary had other children. Let's look closely at this Biblical Scripture:
Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brothers, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
First of all, the Greek word used for "brother" is adelphos. Adelphos carried with it a long list of meanings: Brother of same parents, half-brother (same father), relative, kinship, neighbors, close friends, fellow believers, same tribe, and even a fellow countryman.The attempt by some Protestants to apply ONE word for all of these meanings in 21st century English is ludicrous. Just as languages differ - so do the meaning of different words.
Secondly, the list of names in Matthew 13:55 are the children of the other Mary standing at the foot of the cross alongside Jesus' mother and Mary Magdalene. Let's see what the Bible has to say about this other Mary.
Matthew 27:56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.
Mark 15:40 "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome").
Behold!!!! We now know that James and Joses who were mentioned as Jesus' brothers were actually the children of this other Mary. It could not be Jesus' mother because we know that she was standing at the foot of the cross and NOT watching the crucifixtion from far away.
Finally,John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When you compare the different accounts of the crucifixion, they clearly show the mother of James and Joses to be the wife of Clopas (also called Alphaeus) - not Mary the mother of Jesus. Any attempt to connect these people as uterine brothers of Jesus are squashed by Scripture. So, Scripture showed that James and Joses were the children of the other Mary and not Jesus' mother, then the same is also true of Simon and Judas. Also, when Christ was a child lost in the temple, there was no indication in the Bible that He had other siblings as His mother Mary and stepfather Joseph went searching for Him.
Case closed.
At the Passover supper, Jesus DID hold out the bread and said, "This is my body." While it is true that Jesus also said that He is the vine and even the gate, the difference here is that none of His disciples left when He said he was the vine or the gate. However, when Jesus stated that He is the bread and they must eat Him, all His disciples left Him except 12 because they understood that He was speaking to them LITERALLY this time (Read John 6).
Purgatory does not contradict Hebrews 9:27. Purgatory simply means the "purging of sins." The Bible says that no sin can enter Heaven.
Let's say for example that a Christian was walking to work. He happened to pass by a beautiful woman and he started thinking nasty thoughts about him being with her in bed. He knows it is wrong and is ashamed of his thoughts, but it's still a sin. Because he was too busy looking at the woman, he didn't see the car speeding toward him. He got hit by the car and died. His last sin was those bad thoughts. But he believes in God and he felt shame for those bad thoughts. However, he did not have time to repent and tell God to forgive him for those bad thoughts. So, here you have a Christian who believes in God but died in a state of sin because he didn't have time to confess and repent. He died suddenly. That's where Purgatory comes in. As his soul comes closer to God and Heaven, those bad thoughts (which were his last sins) are being purged away. Why? Because no sin can enter Heaven.
.
Scripture says that the Church is the Body of Christ. The Church is one. When a Christian dies, we do not believe that he/she stops being the body of Christ. All who live in the Body of Christ including those who passed away from this earth are alive, and we are one with them. All are one in God. If you believe that those Christians in Heaven are dead and cannot hear the prayers of those on earth, then that is a huge misconception of what God's kingdom is. If the angels can hear and see what goes on this earth, then the Christian souls in Heaven (who are far greater than the angels) can do the same.
Furthermore, the Book of Revelations says that the angels and saints in Heaven carry our prayers to God.
Revelations 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
As you can see, these 20 elders who are in Heaven each have a vial that held the prayers of saints (that would be our prayers), and where are these prayers given to? It is offered to God (See Revelations 8:4). If it is okay for you to ask your friends and relatives to pray for you, then it is acceptable for us to ask our brothers and sisters in Heaven to pray for us. And if you tell us that those brothers and sisters in Heaven are dead......then my question to you would be......who taught you that death existed in Heaven and that dead people are walking in Heaven. Do you not know that God is a God of the living in Heaven and those in Heaven have eternal life, not eternal death?
First of all, infalliblity is not the same as impeccability. The Pope can sin just as the Apostles were sinners. Infalliblity means that the Pope cannot make an error ONLY in matters of teaching morals and faith. Of course, the Pope can make errors in sports and politics, but NOT in the matters of teaching morals and faith. It is the same with the Apostles who also had this infallibility, which comes from the Holy Spirit. It was the infallible Holy Spirit who used fallible men to go out and preach morals and faith. The Apostles were infallible when teaching morals and faith. Yet, you don't believe that it can happen today? You don't believe that God can still choose people today and set them aside as He did with the Apostles, give them the infallible Holy Spirit so that they will teach morals and faith infallibly?
Now instead of making false assumptions about Catholicism, it would be best if you ask a Catholic who is actually more knowledgeable of Catholic doctrine. God bless.
justaname
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Thank you Selene for clarification. Personally I believe Revelation 12:1 to be speaking of Israel, but that can be argumentative and off topic. I have heard the Catholic belief that Mary was sinless, is there validity to this? Also what do you claim to the purchase of pennants?
As far as prayer direction, I believe Jesus is the model, as to which He directed prayer to the Father.
Also I know it to be taught that only Catholics are saved, and if one is actually saved who is outside the Catholic church, it is by the Catholic church that that individual is saved.
Also what about the authority of the magistrate? Is it not Jesus who is my head and not the pope?
Honestly I am not one to bash Catholics as I see them as brothers and sisters. 1 John 4:7
Yet there is some dogma that surrounds them that I see can be dividing, and a system of politics in the religion that is ungodly.
I know of a priest that was accused during the scandal, found innocent, yet was still not allowed to continue his priestly duties. He later committed suicide. A terrible loss to him and humanity.
Also Mark has Mary Magdalene afar off, John has her at the foot of the cross. This opens the door to where Jesus' mother was also. Possibly the authors are referencing two different periods of time, yet that leaves the case open still.
As far as prayer direction, I believe Jesus is the model, as to which He directed prayer to the Father.
Also I know it to be taught that only Catholics are saved, and if one is actually saved who is outside the Catholic church, it is by the Catholic church that that individual is saved.
Also what about the authority of the magistrate? Is it not Jesus who is my head and not the pope?
Honestly I am not one to bash Catholics as I see them as brothers and sisters. 1 John 4:7
Yet there is some dogma that surrounds them that I see can be dividing, and a system of politics in the religion that is ungodly.
I know of a priest that was accused during the scandal, found innocent, yet was still not allowed to continue his priestly duties. He later committed suicide. A terrible loss to him and humanity.
Also Mark has Mary Magdalene afar off, John has her at the foot of the cross. This opens the door to where Jesus' mother was also. Possibly the authors are referencing two different periods of time, yet that leaves the case open still.
justaname
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The main difficulty I have with this is it is based solely on the western churches. What about the churches in Asia or Africa? Also historically in John's time all of these churches existed. Jesus related a message to the problems these churches had in their day.
I see John 1:19 being the structure of revelation. The "things which are" being the portion dedicated to the letters of the churches.
Selene
New Member
Hello Justaname,
You asked many questions and I will answer them. First of all, you ask about Mary being sinless. The answer to that question is yes. Catholics believe that Mary was conceived without sin because she was the NEW Ark of Covenant that God dwelled in. As you know, in the Old Testament, God dwelled among His people in the Ark of the Covenant. God was very specific about every exact detail of the ark (Ex. 25-30). It was a place where God Himself would dwell (Ex. 25:8). God wanted His words — inscribed on stone — housed in a perfect container covered with pure gold within and without. How much more would He want His Word — Jesus — to have a perfect dwelling place! If the only begotten Son were to take up residence in the womb of a human girl, would He not make her flawless?
The Virgin Mary is the living shrine of the Word of God, the Ark of the New and Eternal Covenant. In fact, St. Luke's account of the annunciation of the angel to Mary nicely incorporates the images of the tent of meeting with God in Sinai and of the temple of Zion. Just as the cloud covered the people of God marching in the desert (.Numbers 10:34; Deut. 33:12; Ps. 91:4) and just as the same cloud, as a sign of the divine mystery present in the midst of Israel, hovered over the Ark of the Covenant (Ex. 40:35), so now the shadow of the Most High envelopes and penetrates the tabernacle of the New Covenant that is the womb of Mary (Luke 1:35). There are many other parallels between the Old Ark of Covenant and Mary (the New Ark of Covenant). These are the parallels:
1. Mary arose and went to the hill country of Judea. Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided) are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea.
2. When David saw the ark he rejoiced and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" Elizabeth uses almost the same words: "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke is telling us something — drawing our minds back to the Old Testament, showing us a parallel.
3. When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother's womb — and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark.
4. The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word "blessed" three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.
5. The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God's presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9-11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21-22).
Thus, Mary is seen as the New Ark of Covenant and also as the New Eve. However, this does not mean that she did not need a savior. Like everyone else, she needed a savior. The difference between Mary and us is that we already fell into the pit and God saved us by pulling us out of the pit. With Mary God saved her by preventing her from falling into the pit.
As for your second question, no Catholic was ever taught that they are saved and that others outside the CatholicChurch are not saved. This was ONLY taught by a group who call themselves "the Society of Pius X" (SSPX for short) This group and their founder was excommunicated by the late Pope John Paul II. When the Vatican excommunicates a group or even a person, they are no longer recognized as part of the Roman Catholic Church. The teachings of the Catholic Church are all found in the Catechisms and Canon Laws. Nowhere in the Catechisms or Canon Law does it say that all Catholics are saved while others outside the Church are not saved. The teachings of the Catholic Church says that only God can judge, and that it is possible that those outside of the Catholic Church can also receive salvation. Afterall, Jesus forgave even the pagan Roman soldiers who killed Him at the cross because they were ignorant.
As for your last question, Jesus is indeed the Head of the Church. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome and the successor of the Apostle Peter. It was Christ who gave the Apostle Peter the authority to take care of His entire flock (See John 21:15-17). The hierachy of the Catholic Church is as follows:
1. Jesus Christ (God who is the Head of the Church)
2. The Apostles
3. The Pope and Bishops (Successors of the Apostles)
4. Priests and Deacons
5. Laity (the people)
This kind of hierachy is also found in the Coptic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. God bless.
Only that none of the apostles never preached any tradition of contrary to what is written in the Scriptures. "As it is written" - Biblical authors wrote. Write the term "written" in the search Biblical and check how many times occurs.
Zither repeal the law of God by some tradition, not too much will help anyone, because:
Mk 7:7-9 csb "(7) They worship Me in vain, teaching as doctrines the commands of men. (8) Disregarding the command of God, you keep the tradition of men." (9) He also said to them, "You completely invalidate God's command in order to maintain your tradition '"
Comment on the rest of the digressions, like "we believe that Mary taken into heaven, not having known death because Jesus loved mother and because Elijah was also taken away" - a waste of time, because the horse is what everyone sees B)
Mt 7:22 csb "(22) On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name? (23) Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers! '"'
I have a question about whom Lord spoke with them will be many? You think that they did not believe in all this?
Hi Vashti!
I do not understand your question [lost in translation]
The OP:
my quote:
Matthew 7:21-22 has nothing to do with what I have said...this verse is about believers who have decided to do things without inquiring of, or the approval of the Lord... God's will and the leading of the Holy Spirit was not in it. That is why I am strongly against Dominionism and NAR teachings. If you think that it is not possible to move this way...Romans 11:29 says "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
and one day we will give an account of ourselves before God regarding these things...Romans 14:12, Hebrews 4:13
Shalom!!!
I do not understand your question [lost in translation]
The OP:
my quote:
Matthew 7:21-22 has nothing to do with what I have said...this verse is about believers who have decided to do things without inquiring of, or the approval of the Lord... God's will and the leading of the Holy Spirit was not in it. That is why I am strongly against Dominionism and NAR teachings. If you think that it is not possible to move this way...Romans 11:29 says "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
and one day we will give an account of ourselves before God regarding these things...Romans 14:12, Hebrews 4:13
Shalom!!!
Selene
New Member
The biblical scripture you quote here is speaking of man's tradition. St. Paul speaks of another tradition, which he told us to hold fast on. It is a tradition that comes from the Holy Spirit. The two are not the same. And how do you know the traditions that St. Paul handed down orally by word of mouth when all you have is sola scriptura (the Bible alone).
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
There are many things not mentioned in the Bible, such as George Washington, but you still believe that he was the first president of the United States. In the same way, just because the "assumption of Mary" is not mentioned in the Bible does not mean that we are going against the Bible. You are correct that there is nothing in the Bible that says Mary was taken up into Heaven, but there is also nothing in the Bible that says that she was NOT taken up into Heaven. So, one cannot accuse Catholics of disobeying scripture when scripture says nothing to refute or support it.
The "assumption of Mary" was a tradition that was orally handed down since the Apostolic times. We believe our traditions because it came from the Apostles. If the Apostles said that Mary was taken into Heaven by her Son Jesus, then we believe it. And yes, this is so much like Jesus who is the perfect son. What son would leave his mother behind? The commandment of God is "honor your mother and your father." Did you think that Jesus only honored His Father, and not His mother?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Doctrine develops, V. The apostles and disciples didn't teach about justification, sanctification and redemption in the same manner we do today because these doctrines had to be worked out over centuries of thought and debate. Same is true with the doctrine of the Trinity, doctrine of the Incarnation, and the Canon of the Bible - all these Catholic doctrines have their roots in the Early Church, but have developed over time AND all are accepted by orthodox, Reformation Churches.
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