is doing sexual things with a boyfriend/girlfriend sin...

[Mungo]

Secondly, there is no requirement anywhere....Old or New Testament for wedding ceremonies or vows. If a couple meet and start kissing, fondling and have sexual intercourse....and they stay together....they are married. That is what happened in the biblical era, then there was also arrangements by fathers that occurred a lot of times. LOL It was usually a delivery. The groom paid a bride price and the father was required to deliver a virgin daughter. The Hebrew language did not have a word for wed or wedding.

The Process of Marriage: Kiddushin and Nisuin

The process of marriage occurs in two distinct stages: kiddushin (commonly translated as betrothal) and nisuin (full-fledged marriage). Kiddushin occurs when the woman accepts the money, contract or sexual relations offered by the prospective husband. The word "kiddushin" comes from the root Qof-Dalet-Shin, meaning "sanctified." It reflects the sanctity of the marital relation. However, the root word also connotes something that is set aside for a specific (sacred) purpose, and the ritual of kiddushin sets aside the woman to be the wife of a particular man and no other.

Kiddushin is far more binding than an engagement as we understand the term in modern English; in fact, Rambam speaks of a period of engagement before the kiddushin. Once kiddushin is complete, the woman is legally the wife of the man. The relationship created by kiddushin can only be dissolved by death or divorce. However, the spouses do not live together at the time of the kiddushin, and the mutual obligations created by the marital relationship do not take effect until the nisuin is complete.

The nisuin (from a word meaning "elevation") completes the process of marriage. The husband brings the wife into his home and they begin their married life together.

In the past, the kiddushin and nisuin would routinely occur as much as a year apart. During that time, the husband would prepare a home for the new family. There was always a risk that during this long period of separation, the woman would discover that she wanted to marry another man, or the man would disappear, leaving the woman in the awkward state of being married but without a husband. Today, the two ceremonies are normally performed together.
Judaism 101: Marriage

If you don't understand this then you miss many of the allusions to it in the NT.

 

[JohnPaul]

Yes sex before marriage is a sin, I thought everyone knew that.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Process of Marriage: Kiddushin and Nisuin

The process of marriage occurs in two distinct stages: kiddushin (commonly translated as betrothal) and nisuin (full-fledged marriage). Kiddushin occurs when the woman accepts the money, contract or sexual relations offered by the prospective husband. The word "kiddushin" comes from the root Qof-Dalet-Shin, meaning "sanctified." It reflects the sanctity of the marital relation. However, the root word also connotes something that is set aside for a specific (sacred) purpose, and the ritual of kiddushin sets aside the woman to be the wife of a particular man and no other.

Kiddushin is far more binding than an engagement as we understand the term in modern English; in fact, Rambam speaks of a period of engagement before the kiddushin. Once kiddushin is complete, the woman is legally the wife of the man. The relationship created by kiddushin can only be dissolved by death or divorce. However, the spouses do not live together at the time of the kiddushin, and the mutual obligations created by the marital relationship do not take effect until the nisuin is complete.

The nisuin (from a word meaning "elevation") completes the process of marriage. The husband brings the wife into his home and they begin their married life together.

In the past, the kiddushin and nisuin would routinely occur as much as a year apart. During that time, the husband would prepare a home for the new family. There was always a risk that during this long period of separation, the woman would discover that she wanted to marry another man, or the man would disappear, leaving the woman in the awkward state of being married but without a husband. Today, the two ceremonies are normally performed together.
Judaism 101: Marriage

If you don't understand this then you miss many of the allusions to it in the NT.

Absolutely correct around the year 500 AD.....in accordance with the Talmud.
Before that only some of this was observed as a tradition, that is why you do not see it occurring much in the storyline of the Old Testament. One of the highest profile marriages in the Old Testament, that being between King David and Bathsheba does not even get a description of a celebration. King David's marriage and King Solomon's mother! Of course King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines and no mention of any celebrations or process.

The website you referenced is a good site for Jewish learning.
Here is what it says about Old Testament marriage procedures.
"The Torah provides very little guidance with regard to the procedures of a marriage. The method of finding a spouse, the form of the wedding ceremony, and the nature of the marital relationship are all explained in the Talmud."

The give away is the word wedding. Old Testament Hebrew / Israelites / Jews did not have a word for wedding and no prescribed wedding ceremony or vows.

The history of Jewish weddings have some twists and turns that occur between the Testaments. The Jews when under the rule of the Persians found their weddings to be beautiful. So they developed wedding ceremonies that told of Old Testament stories. (So your talking about ceremonies that were developed in between the testaments, then, based on Old Testament stories and figures of the past.) After the conquest of Alexander the Great and the cruel treatment received by the Greeks and Romans....the Jews hated anything Pagan and mostly discontinued Wedding ceremonies for centuries.

Christ's reference to the Jewish weddings are these processes out of Persia. That is why you do not see all the things Christ is referencing in the New Testament, occurring or practiced in the Old Testament.

 

[Mungo]

Absolutely correct around the year 500 AD.....in accordance with the Talmud.
Before that some of this was observed as a tradition, that is why you do not see it occurring much in the storyline of the Old Testament. One of the highest profile marriages in the Old Testament, that being between King David and Bathsheba does not even get a description of a celebration. King David's marriage and King Solomon's mother! Of course King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines and no mention of any celebrations or process.

The website you reference is a good site for Jewish learning.
Here is what it says about Old Testament marriage procedures.
"The Torah provides very little guidance with regard to the procedures of a marriage. The method of finding a spouse, the form of the wedding ceremony, and the nature of the marital relationship are all explained in the Talmud."

The give away is the word wedding. Old Testament Hebrew / Israelites / Jews did not have a word for wedding and no prescribed wedding ceremony or vows.

The history of Jewish weddings have some twists and turns that occur between the Testaments. The Jews when under the rule of the Persians found their weddings to be beautiful. So they developed wedding ceremonies that told of Old Testament stories. (So your talking ceremonies developed then, based on things that happened in the past.) After the conquest of Alexander the Great and the cruel treatment received by the Greeks and Romans....the Jews hated anything Pagan and mostly discontinued Wedding ceremonies for centuries.

Christ's reference to the Jewish weddings are these processes out of Persia. That is why you do not see all the things Christ is referencing in the New Testament, occurring or practiced in the Old Testament.

There is a good example in the OT book of Tobit (chapter 7 & 8).
Tobias, son of Tobit, asks for the hand in marriage of the daughter, Sarah, of a distant relative Raguel). The father agrees and offers him food. But Tobias says:
“I will eat nothing here until you make a binding agreement with me.”
So Raguel calls his daughter and wife and "Next he called his wife Edna, and took a scroll and wrote out the contract; and they set their seals to it."
That was the kiddushin.

In this case nisuin follows immediately. They consummate the marriage and that is followed by 14 days of wedding feast.

 

[Grailhunter]

book of Tobit

Book of Tobit....2nd century.....I like it.
I am not saying that the kiddushin and nisuin did not exist in the Old Testament. Part of it was in the Mosaic Law but also some of the stories. But the storyline and spirit of it all was that women were treated as property. Payment was received and the father was required to deliver a virgin daughter. In some of these high profile marriages you would think that it would appear in the OT but they don't.

But one, how many marriages formed before the Mosaic Law?
Then two, how many unions formed according to this tradition?
Three, it does not matter because regardless the union still established the marriage, which is my point.
Four, there is no requirement for wedding ceremonies or vows in either the Old or New Testament.

Wedding celebrations or feasts did occur, just not required or documented in the OT.
There are stories on how these feasts did occur.
The Jews did in fact produce organized wedding ceremonies, but it was during the time they were under Persian rule and it did fall out of favor for a while but they began to reappear sometime in the second century....the Talmud is evidence that it was in full swing by the 6th century.

Mosaic Law and tradition still applied in the NT, Miriam was betrothed. Which by Mosaic Law became a problem for her.

The parables of Christ were referring to the traditions out of Persia...You are not going fine a lot of what He was talking about in the OT.

The wedding in Cana could have been Jewish, but it is not defined.

So from there on....
No evidence of Christians having weddings until the 9th century and that was a matter of choice.
The Catholic Church made marriage a sacrament in the 11th century, but did not require wedding ceremonies or vows but there was talk of the benefits of having the clergy present if they elected to have a wedding.
The Protestant made weddings a requirement in the 16th century and the Catholic Church followed suit shortly after.
In the 18th century, civil law required weddings to be public.

No matter how you look at it, weddings and vows came from the Pagan cultures. As it is today most weddings are modeled after Roman weddings, that is why we have so many Pagan rituals imbedded in them and I am not saying that to be critical....I like everything there is to do with weddings.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

How many years do you think Jacob and Rachel and Leah and Zilpah and Bilhah were engaged in sexual relationships. Are you expecting the Bible to give a play by play report on sexual interactions? Not going to happen. A guy has four women, since there is no cultural or religious restrictions, what do you think he is going to do with them? I can think and you can think, but no one can prove anything. Whatever makes you feel good.

Myself I don't live by your opinions rather I choose to believe what's written down in the inspired
scriptures. The scriptures don't say that Jacob and his wives had sex all at the same time, and you haven't proven that they did. All you offer is your opinions. Like I said I don't live my life by your opinions but what was inspired to be written down. Just because you believe that if a man had more than one wife that means in your opinion he's sleeping or having sex with all his wives at the same time on the same night doesn't mean anything. You have no scripture to back up what you're saying.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

In correct. The Greek word Pornia means prostitute. Which was not a negative term in the Greco-Roman culture. The Christian version of that porneia gets a little complicated.

If you noticed there was no wedding ceremony or vows in Eden. And then you can read the rest of the Bible and find no requirement for wedding ceremonies or vows. The Hebrew Language had no word for wed or wedding. Nor does the Bible state the correct way for a man and woman to meet and join in a union. You are inventing beliefs....welcome to the proud crowd. It was 1500 years after the biblical period that Christianity developed a requirement for weddings ceremonies and vows, and that is a fact.

Here is truth about the word Fornication.
Translations of fornication from the Christian perspective
noun
πορνεία
prostitution, whoring, harlotry, whoredom,
συνουσία
fornication, coition, intercourse, copulation

From the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11-12
The worship of idols of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

But this all involves translational errors and Christian reflection on later traditions that were retrofitted for 16th and 17th century translations of the English Bible.

When the Greek text was translated into the Latin Vulgate, the Greek word porneia was translated to fornication. This is how the English word fornication arrived in the original Geneva and King James Version of the Bible. Part of the problem was that the New Testament was an attempt to write Christian moral standards using a Pagan language…ie Greek. But the Greeks did not have the same moral standards that Christians had. So the Christians writers were taking Greek words and adjusting the definitions of them, even coming up with new Greek words. Why? In the Greco-Roman culture sex was not considered immoral. It did not matter if it was temple prostitutes or orgies. Married Roman men were free to have sex with who they wanted…female or male. In the Roman culture adultery only pertained to wives. By Christian standards it was a disgusting arrangement. So Christian writers were tasked with conveying sexual morality from a culture that was without sexual morals and their language reflected the absence of words to describe sexual immorality. Now was all this confusing to the translators of the scriptures, it is a matter of debate.

Pornea in the Greek society mostly is a reference to prostitution which was not wrong in their culture. For example pornography, is an ancient Greek word that mean writings or paintings of prostitutes and many Roman homes had murals of sex acts and or prostitute on their walls.

But in the Bible the Greek word Pornea and its variances appear several times. In all cases the Christian writers were using it as some form of sexual immorality.
Examples:
πορνείας·… porneias … Sexual immorality
πορνείᾳ … porneiai … Sexual immorality in the plural
πορνεῦσαι … To commit sexual immorality involving sexual acts
πορνείαν … Idolatry involving sexual acts
πόρνος … A person that practices sexual immorality
πόρνοι … Refering to as a group of the sexually immoral
πορνεῖαι … inflectional, more or less dirty thoughts

Appearing in these scriptures
Matthew 5:32, 5:19, Mark 7:21, John 8:4, Acts 15:20, 5:29, 21:25, Romans 1:29* 1st Corinthians 5:1, 5:9, 5:10, 6:13, 6:18, 7:2, 10:8, 2nd Corinthians 12:21, Galatians 5:19, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, 1st Thessalonians 4:3, Jude 1:7, Revelation 2:14, 2:14, 2:20, 2:21, 9:21, 14:8, 17:2, 17:4, 18:3, 18:19, 19:2

But in no case does it simply apply to two unmarried people having sex, for a very good reason. The New Testament does not have a lot to say about romantic love. But to say that Pornea, porneia is sex outside of wedlock would be inaccurate, since the Bible has no requirements for a wedding ceremonies or vows. Marriages were formed by the union and most of the time in early Christianity a lady’s father would chose who they would be married to, as was practiced in most Old Testament unions of marriages.

The evolution of the word Fornicate or Fornication
Fornicate comes from the Latin, the term fornix means arch or vaulted ceiling. In Ancient Rome, it was known that prostitutes would wait for their customers out of the hot sun or rain in areas that had cover…vaulted ceilings. The Latin word fornix became a euphemism for brothels and the Latin verb fornicare referred to a man visiting a brothel. Meaning a man being serviced by prostitutes.

Of course then St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate translation of the scriptures used the word fornication.

The first recorded use in English is in the 14th century in a poem called the Cursor Mundi.

The first English Bibles to use the word fornication was the Geneva Bible and the King James Version of the Bible. 16th and 17th centuries respectively.

So bottom line, marriages in the Bible were formed by the union. This is a biblical and historical fact. Even if there was a Hebrew marriage celebration, there was no biblical requirement stated for ceremonies or vows....just the Bridal Chamber were the couple consummate their marriage. Modern Jews still use a symbolic bridal chamber that is more of a canopy.

The fact that it is the union that forms a marriage still exist in civil laws. In most states and countries a couple that does not have sex after the wedding ceremony can get their marriage annulled.

What people choose to believe is their choice but whether people believe in the true definition of the Greek word pornia which is that it includes all forms of sexual immorality which includes two single people having sex outside of marriage is their choice. All you show me with your talk about errors is you'll find any way you can to convince yourself and others the justification of sexual immorality. Although people don't or won't consider the word pornia to mean all forms of sexual immorality including two single people having sex outside of marriage, it is their choice what to believe. But whatever people choose to believe, I'm not going to justify sexual immorality.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Interesting case, Jacob married into a family of witches. Were Rachel and Leah betrothed?
No videos of Hebrew sexual activities or written restrictions in marital relations.
And if you read on you will see that Laban gave his daughter handmaidens that eventfully became Jacob's wives or concubines
Laban practiced divinity- witchcraft
Rachel and Leah used mandrakes...belladonna...witch's brew
They stole Laban's idols and put it under their saddle....basically a fertility ritual.
Jacob's learnt from them....his special rods that made livestock fertile.
When he went to meet God He hid his idols.

None of this is proof that Jacob had sex with his wives before being betrothed or that he slept with all his wives at the same time or on the same day. You still haven't proven from the scriptures of what you say. All you have is your opinions about it but no scripture to back up what you say.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

No again, but close.
Not all women were betrothed before marriage.
Betrothed is never defined in the Bible as a marriage. But it does have some legal ramification that put Christ's mother in an awkward position.

Actually you're wrong but you're always going to justify sexual immorality with your opinions

 

[Grailhunter]

Myself I don't live by your opinions

I don't work on opinions. I work only on facts.
The reason there are 30,000 Protestant denominations is because people form religions on misinterpretations and opinions.
Religion is not about what ya like and what ya don't like.

 

[Grailhunter]

I choose to believe what's written down in the inspired

If only you could understand what is written.

 

[farouk]

If two human beings consent what is the problem? Though now in my own life would only really desire to that type of thing with my wife. Sex was created for us to en but it would be most enjoyed and enjoyable with two people who care, and love each other.

@MatthewG It's marriage that is part of God's plan (Hebrews 13.4) rather than other arrangements.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I don't work on opinions. I work only on facts.
The reason there are 30,000 Protestant denomination is because people for religions on misinterpretations and opinions.
Religion is not about what ya like and what ya don't like.

You're going by your opinions, you haven't shown one scripture that backs up what you've said.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

If only you could understand what is written.

You're the one going by opinions, like I said you haven't shown one scripture that backs up what you said.

 

[Grailhunter]

The scriptures don't say that Jacob and his wives had sex all at the same time, and you haven't proven that they did.

Lots and lots of polygamous relationships with hardly any restrictions. I am going to say they did all kinds of things, but I cannot prove it nor can you disprove they did not. Jacob would be likely to do anything, very poor character, his story demonstrates that he had little to no consideration for others.

What people choose to believe is their choice but whether people believe in the true definition of the Greek word pornia

Well the definition of Greek words are not up to your opinion or mine.

which is that it includes all forms of sexual immorality which includes two single people having sex outside of marriage is their choice

It is a fact, that single people had sex to get married. Unless you think everyone was sinning when they got married and lived in sin all the time they were married....all the way up to the 16th century.

All you show me with your talk about errors is you'll find any way you can to convince yourself and others the justification of sexual immorality. Although people don't or won't consider the word pornia to mean all forms of sexual immorality including two single people having sex outside of marriage, it is their choice what to believe. But whatever people choose to believe, I'm not going to justify sexual immorality.

Best I can tell you really have an issue with the scriptures and the truth. What I say can be easily looked up and verified. If you choose to live under a rock with your own religion....Say hello to the toads.

None of this is proof that Jacob had sex with his wives before being betrothed or that he slept with all his wives at the same time or on the same day. You still haven't proven from the scriptures of what you say. All you have is your opinions about it but no scripture to back up what you say.

I am not saying they were betrothed or not. Can you find a scripture that says they were betrothed or not. The whole story is about an agreement with Laban for his daughters. Did the witches of that time period have a betrothed? What do you think the process is for concubines....? Is it different than when you buy one? How did it work when the wives gave him their handmaidens as concubines?

Actually you're wrong but you're always going to justify sexual immorality with your opinions

No one is justifying sexual immorality. The truth is not immoral. Now with that comment, our conversation is going to come to an end.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

In biblical times, among the Hebrew people the daughters were married in early youth, and marriages were usually contracted within the narrow circle of the clan and the family. It was undesirable to marry a woman from a foreign nation for fear she would introduce foreign beliefs and practices.
As a rule, the fathers arranged the match. The girl was consulted, but the “calling of the damsel and inquiring at her mouth” after the conclusion of all negotiations was merely a formality. There was a price paid by the father of the groom to the father of the bride which was called mohar.
The marriage consisted of two ceremonies that were marked by celebrations at two separate times, with an interval between. First came the betrothal called erusin; and later, the wedding which was called nissuin.
At the betrothal the woman was legally married, although she still remained in her father’s house. She could not belong to another man unless she was divorced from her betrothed. The wedding or nissuin only meant that the betrothed woman, who was still a virgin, was accompanied by a colorful procession, from her father’s house to the house of her groom, and the legal tie with him was consummated.

 

[quietthinker]

In biblical times, among the Hebrew people the daughters were married in early youth, and marriages were usually contracted within the narrow circle of the clan and the family. It was undesirable to marry a woman from a foreign nation for fear she would introduce foreign beliefs and practices.
As a rule, the fathers arranged the match. The girl was consulted, but the “calling of the damsel and inquiring at her mouth” after the conclusion of all negotiations was merely a formality. There was a price paid by the father of the groom to the father of the bride which was called mohar.
The marriage consisted of two ceremonies that were marked by celebrations at two separate times, with an interval between. First came the betrothal called erusin; and later, the wedding which was called nissuin.
At the betrothal the woman was legally married, although she still remained in her father’s house. She could not belong to another man unless she was divorced from her betrothed. The wedding or nissuin only meant that the betrothed woman, who was still a virgin, was accompanied by a colorful procession, from her father’s house to the house of her groom, and the legal tie with him was consummated.

Interesting! I'm sure God made all this clear to Adam and Eve!

 

[Grailhunter]

In biblical times, among the Hebrew people the daughters were married in early youth, and marriages were usually contracted within the narrow circle of the clan and the family. It was undesirable to marry a woman from a foreign nation for fear she would introduce foreign beliefs and practices.
As a rule, the fathers arranged the match. The girl was consulted, but the “calling of the damsel and inquiring at her mouth” after the conclusion of all negotiations was merely a formality. There was a price paid by the father of the groom to the father of the bride which was called mohar.
The marriage consisted of two ceremonies that were marked by celebrations at two separate times, with an interval between. First came the betrothal called erusin; and later, the wedding which was called nissuin.
At the betrothal the woman was legally married, although she still remained in her father’s house. She could not belong to another man unless she was divorced from her betrothed. The wedding or nissuin only meant that the betrothed woman, who was still a virgin, was accompanied by a colorful procession, from her father’s house to the house of her groom, and the legal tie with him was consummated.

Close.
But you are trying to suggest this was a norm....when the scriptures do not show that to be true. Then you are trying to suggest things that are nowhere to be found in the scriptures.

Got to stick with the facts that are in the OT.
You or I, can say traditionally this or that happened. But the frequency cannot be determined, and since the scriptures seem to ignore it, there is no reason to assume it happened frequently. Looking at the OT as whole, the Israelites did follow much of anything consistently....that is what got them in trouble. Another reason to suggest that what you are proposing, was not likely.

For example; You say that daughters were married in early youth.... I can agree and say that, in the OT period, Israelite women were not the only females that were in polygamous, sex slaves and harem arrangements. This is part of history. And for several reasons it was common to acquire females before they started to menstruate, because of the concepts of cleanliness and purity. History might be right on this and we can say this is true of the Hebrews / Israelites / Jews but we cannot prove it was a hard and fast rule or practice.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Close.
But you are trying to suggest this was a norm....when the scriptures do not show that to be true. Then you are trying to suggest things that are nowhere to be found in the scriptures.

Got to stick with the facts that are in the OT.
You or I, can say traditionally this or that happened. But the frequency cannot be determined, and since the scriptures seem to ignore it, there is no reason to assume it happened frequently. Looking at the OT as whole, the Israelites did follow much of anything consistently....that is what got them in trouble. Another reason to suggest that what you are proposing, was not likely.

For example; You say that daughters were married in early youth.... I can agree and say that, in the OT period, Israelite women were not the only females that were in polygamous, sex slaves and harem arrangements. This is part of history. And for several reasons it was common to acquire females before they started to menstruate, because of the concepts of cleanliness and purity. History might be right on this and we can say this is true of the Hebrews / Israelites / Jews but we cannot prove it was a hard and fast rule or practice.

I thought you didn't want to speak anymore.
Anyway, I say it like I said it before having sex outside of marriage is a sin always has been, and if you or others don't want to agree with it then don't. I'm not going to agree with you.

 

[Grailhunter]

I thought you didn't want to speak anymore.
Anyway, I say it like I said it before having sex outside of marriage is a sin always has been, and if you or others don't want to agree with it then don't. I'm not going to agree with you.

Beliefs...truths....facts
I don't care if you belief it, just as long as you do not say it is biblical. I told you that you cannot find a requirement for a wedding ceremony in the Bible....and you know you cannot.

The rest of it, if truth is important to you, you can look it up for yourself. It is not too uncommon for Christians to pick beliefs over truths. But as the Bible says the truths will set you free.