is doing sexual things with a boyfriend/girlfriend sin...

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Beliefs...truths....facts
I don't care if you belief it, just as long as you do not say it is biblical. I told you that you cannot find a requirement for a wedding ceremony in the Bible....and you know you cannot.

The rest of it, if truth is important to you, you can look it up for yourself. It is not too uncommon for Christians to pick beliefs over truths. But as the Bible says the truths will set you free.

I do say it's biblical you can disagree with that all you want, I'm not going to change my mind about it.

 

[Grailhunter]

I do say it's biblical you can disagree with that all you want, I'm not going to change my mind about it.

Don't care if you change your mind. That is not my ministry. Johnny Appleseed of truth. I believe in freedom of religion.
All I am asking is for you to be honest with yourself and everyone else and admit you cannot find a requirement of a wedding and vows in the Bible. What good is a religion if you have to lie to yourself to defend your beliefs.

 

[MatthewG]

Anyone who in the Old Testament who had two wives always had problems that came along with it.

 

[JohnPaul]

Beliefs...truths....facts
I don't care if you belief it, just as long as you do not say it is biblical. I told you that you cannot find a requirement for a wedding ceremony in the Bible....and you know you cannot.

The rest of it, if truth is important to you, you can look it up for yourself. It is not too uncommon for Christians to pick beliefs over truths. But as the Bible says the truths will set you free.

Hi Grailhunter,

I had asked in another thread, I forget which one now, but who gives mortal man to marry anyone, if a couple live together and have taken vows to stay together is that not marriage in the eyes of God, instead of filling out a piece of paper which to me is like signing a contract, and then having to pay whatever Church you choose to marry you, can one not take their vows and promise the Lord that they are forever one?

 

[Grailhunter]

Hi Grailhunter,

I had asked in another thread, I forget which one now, but who gives mortal man to marry anyone, if a couple live together and have taken vows to stay together is that not marriage in the eyes of God, instead of filling out a piece of paper which to me is like signing a contract, and then having to pay whatever Church you choose to marry you, can one not take their vows and promise the Lord that they are forever one?

Here is some posts in this thread to catch you up....241....242....248

Well the simple answer is that, from the moment a couple lays eyes on each other....to the moment they are on their front porch sitting on twin rocking chairs watching the traffic go by and their grandchildren playing on the swing....no sin occurred whether they had a wedding or not.

Contracts, vows, and weddings do not keep couples together.....love and respect and the appreciation of home and family and a devotion to God keep couples together.

In the Old Testament women were treated like property so in some cases contracts were written and "money" exchanged. There were no weddings or vows....per say. That does not mean that they did not have traditions and marriage celebrations, but how often all that occurred, no one knows.

The first documented Christian wedding occurred in the 9th century AD. But that does not mean that none occurred before that. The Gentiles took over the helm of the Church in the 2nd or 3rd century and they come from a long history of weddings. Publicly known weddings in the Middle Ages were probably driven by necessity to document power shifts and wealth from one region to another.

Modern marriages, depending on where you live have legalities whether you have a wedding or not. Societies answer for keeping couples together was to develop a legal system that made divorce a horrifying experience. Pretty much punishing everyone involved, including the children. But obviously that did not work....what percentage of people that you know that by the age of 50 have had a divorce at some time.

Now I am going to go out on a limb and say that most people do not wait to have sex until after they have a wedding. Funny story; I had a friend that was a Southern Baptist preacher that said if you had sex before a wedding, you cursed your marriage in the eyes of God. So I said, Then for heaven sakes, don't have a wedding! He did not like that. He also believed that all sexual desire was lust, whether you were married or not. LOL Horse hockey.

The thing is, for Christians, weddings are now our custom. And why not? Why not include God in your marriage? The families get together in a church and the couple exchange vows of love and commitment and go on to celebrate the marriage. It is one of the reasons that I believe the greatest gift you can give your children is to raise them in a Christian family and the church. By the time they are adults they know that relationships are serious and know the importance of families. A young Christian couple that attend church and fellowship with other Christians and stand and worship the Lord have a better chance in life and marriage. That is my opinion. Birds of a feather flock together...LOL The Bible does not say that, but that is the message. This world is a crazy place and people need that anchor to keep their lives on an even keel.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Don't care if you change your mind. That is not my ministry. Johnny Appleseed of truth. I believe in freedom of religion.
All I am asking is for you to be honest with yourself and everyone else and admit you cannot find a requirement of a wedding and vows in the Bible. What good is a religion if you have to lie to yourself to defend your beliefs.

I'm being honest with myself. Unlike you when the scriptures say a guy goes and begins a process to get a wife and the scripture uses the word wife, I believe that. Then a guy goes through the process of attaining that wife which includes a bride price while all this time during this process the scriptures show no sex was involved until at the end of that process the woman who is already considered the mans wife is led to the guys tent in which they then have sex consummating the arrangement.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Hi Grailhunter,

I had asked in another thread, I forget which one now, but who gives mortal man to marry anyone, if a couple live together and have taken vows to stay together is that not marriage in the eyes of God, instead of filling out a piece of paper which to me is like signing a contract, and then having to pay whatever Church you choose to marry you, can one not take their vows and promise the Lord that they are forever one?

While the scriptures show that we are to obey God before men or governments of men, if the governments have a law or laws that doesn't contradict the laws of God however servant of
the True God are to be obedient to that law or laws of the government. There's nothing in the scriptures concerning getting married by someone who has a legal license to do so and there's nothing wrong with a government requiring a marriage license for a couple to be considered legally married in that country such laws don't contradict the laws of God so as true servants of the True God they will get legally married.

 

[Grailhunter]

I'm being honest with myself. Unlike you when the scriptures say a guy goes and begins a process to get a wife and the scripture uses the word wife, I believe that. Then a guy goes through the process of attaining that wife which includes a bride price while all this time during this process the scriptures show no sex was involved until at the end of that process the woman who is already considered the mans wife is led to the guys tent in which they then have sex consummating the arrangement.

Not the point...it exists in the Bible...the point is frequency and no way to prove it.
And the fact that the Bible does not require a wedding ceremony or vows....Old or New Testament.
Of course the word wedding cannot appear in the Old Testament.

While the scriptures show that we are to obey God before men or governments of men, if the governments have a law or laws that doesn't contradict the laws of God however servant of
the True God are to be obedient to that law or laws of the government. There's nothing in the scriptures concerning getting married by someone who has a legal license to do so and there's nothing wrong with a government requiring a marriage license for a couple to be considered legally married in that country such laws don't contradict the laws of God so as true servants of the True God they will get legally married.

There is no government requirement to be married and the license is part of the Clandestine Marriage Act, so there is nothing wrong with that. God never said to have a wedding or vows nor required it.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Not the point...it exists in the Bible...the point is frequency and no way to prove it.
And the fact that the Bible does not require a wedding ceremony or vows....Old or New Testament.
Of course the word wedding cannot appear in the Old Testament.



There is no government requirement to be married and the license is part of the Clandestine Marriage Act, so there is nothing wrong with that. God never said to have a wedding or vows nor required it.

You opinion not the point. Just because something isn't frequent as you say it is or was, doesn't mean it wasn't frequent among true servants of the True God. There's a lot things today that people don't do frequently but true servants of God do.

 

[Grailhunter]

You opinion not the point.

Not my opinion...it is a fact. Find the the frequency....anything else and it is just wishful thinking on your part. High profile marriages if they were practicing it, it would be mentioned.
This thing where people impose their will over the scriptures is not even Christianity. Next thing you will be telling is that Christ is not God and there is no hell.......

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Not my opinion...it is a fact. Find the the frequency....anything else and it is just wishful thinking on your part. High profile marriages if they were practicing it, it would be mentioned.
This thing where people impose their will over the scriptures is not even Christianity. Next thing you will be telling is that Christ is not God and there is no hell.......

I believe the only thing you're trying to get people to believe in when it comes to the servants of the true God is in the practice of sexual immorality, although you don't call it the practice of sexual immorality, but single people having sex outside the marriage arrangement is the practice of sexual immorality, even though you don't think it is. You saying it's not, sexual immorality means you are promoting the idea of sexual immorality among the people. True servants of the True God will not agree with you and it's going to stay that way, no matter how much you huff and puff about it. I'm not going to change and promote sexual immorality while I understand that you will even though you don't believe you are.

 

[Grailhunter]

I believe the only thing you're trying to get people to believe in when it comes to the servants of the true God is in the practice of sexual immorality

Wrong again. Most of what goes on in the Old Testament is regulated by the Mosaic Law. True by Christian standards some it is crude rude and disgusting, but a normative in the Old Testament, As far as worshipping other gods, quite a few examples of that.

but single people having sex outside the marriage arrangement is the practice of sexual immorality,

Find it. Thou shalt not have sex unless you are married first. There would be no marriages.

You saying it's not, sexual immorality means you are promoting the idea of sexual immorality among the people.

Not true if you put it in motion. I am saying that if you have sex, you are married. That raises the bar of morality.

True servants of the True God will not agree with you and it's going to stay that way, no matter how much you huff and puff about it. I'm not going to change and promote sexual immorality while I understand that you will even though you don't believe you are.

That is the wonderful thing about it, I don't care. Johnny Appleseed of truth...seeds....the rest is up to God....or someone who cares enough about the truth to look it up and find out themselves.

 

[Truman]

Eating the weasel...Lolol...Lol! I've got to stop laughing at things like this...people may start believing the myth that I'm a predator!

 

[Truman]

If a husband and wife, only, I might add, decide they both enjoy whatever between the 2 of them, and their hearts don't believe it's wrong, then I believe it's cool. The marriage bed is undefiled. If I do something that in God's eyes is not wrong, but I believe it is wrong, then, for me, it is wrong!

 

[Pythagorean12]

Imagine the creator of all that exists, seen and unseen, paying attention to our sex life.


You do realize our human nature is of and from God?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Grailhunter said: The Christian buzzword fornication is not actually in the scriptures. The word comes out of the Latin and retrofitted into Christian Bibles. [/Quote\]

I understand that different Bibles have different translations of the Greek word, porneia. However I've checked many Greek Lexicons and found that the original meaning of the Greek word porneia is “to prostitute” or “to sell.” However by the time of the New Testament times, porneia had a very broad meaning that included sexual behavior such as prostitution, extramarital sexual intercourse or adultery, paedophilia, promiscuity, homosexuality, lesbianism, incest, premarital sex and bestiality. Since these Greek Lexicons state this, I will go by the definitions these Lexicons give.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Just no.
Away of thinking. The scripture does not define if the woman is married or you are married. It is a good scripture to warn against salivating over women. At the beach you could get a kink in your neck or put you in the dog house if your wife is with you. We are not animals....but you cannot commit adultery unless you actually commit adultery. Just because you are looking at shiny new trucks, does not mean you are a thief unless you steal one.

Then keep in mind that it was God that created desire, to have and to hold, and all the processes of sex and procreation, it was not the devil that designed that. Without that God given desire, for men, they would have never grown up. Why would they? Why not just spend your days fishing and drinking wine and sleeping in a lean to. Relationships, supporting families, protecting them, building houses for them and the children, roads cities, and jobs etc....is just too much work....if there was not a desire, life would be a lot easier, but only a few humans to enjoy it.

Which leads to another topic...."want" You got to be careful about what you want and the intensity of want for anything. Whether it is adultery, sexual promiscuity, thievery, or scams, want is the driving force for a lot of sins. The Bible does not say that money is the root of all evil....it says....the love of money is the root of all evil...It is the want.

Desire can be abused just as anything else. There is nothing wrong with eating food but you still can abuse food so that what you eat and how much you eat can be unhealthy for you. You can desire the wrong thing just as the angel desired what did not belong to him to desire. He wanted to be worshipped. The desire to be worshipped was in itself wrong. He didn't even have the right to desire that. The desire you're talking about between man and woman is there yes, but you don't even have the right to desire a woman in the way Jesus is speaking about because Jesus isn't speaking about some passing immoral thought; rather, he is stressing the seriousness of the matter when one “keeps on looking.” Continued looking often arouses passionate desire. You not only cause problems for yourself when you "keep on looking" but you cause problems with other people, which you don't have the right to do. When you "keep on looking" if an opportunity arises, it can result in adultery. A person should prevent this from happening and it may take extreme measures. Jesus said “If, now, your right eye is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. . . . If your right hand is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you.”—Matthew 5:29, 30. Jesus wasn't obviously being literal but whatever action is necessary for you to stop "keep on looking" you do because it's not only what's best for you but what's best for others as well.

 

[Grailhunter]

Desire can be abused just as anything else. There is nothing wrong with eating food but you still can abuse food so that what you eat and how much you eat can be unhealthy for you. You can desire the wrong thing just as the angel desired what did not belong to him to desire. He wanted to be worshipped. The desire to be worshipped was in itself wrong. He didn't even have the right to desire that. The desire you're talking about between man and woman is there yes, but you don't even have the right to desire a woman in the way Jesus is speaking about because Jesus isn't speaking about some passing immoral thought; rather, he is stressing the seriousness of the matter when one “keeps on looking.” Continued looking often arouses passionate desire. You not only cause problems for yourself when you "keep on looking" but you cause problems with other people, which you don't have the right to do. When you "keep on looking" if an opportunity arises, it can result in adultery. A person should prevent this from happening and it may take extreme measures. Jesus said “If, now, your right eye is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. . . . If your right hand is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you.”—Matthew 5:29, 30. Jesus wasn't obviously being literal but whatever action is necessary for you to stop "keep on looking" you do because it's not only what's best for you but what's best for others as well.

The sliding rule of Christian sexual perspectives. At one end, even the thought of sex is in league with the devil....to the other end normal sexual attractions, to love, to have and to hold and marriage, is a good thing. The Christian sliding rule does not include sexual immorality. You are not going to find too many on this forum that are tolerable to sexual immorality, whether it be one night stands, homosexualality, prostitutes, or orgies etc.

So the most beneficial discussions are within those parameters. How do we treat those in our lives with respect. How do we conduct ourselves with those that we have developed relationships with. When is it correct to go past a handshake, a hug, a kiss, caressing, and making love. Opinions will fall anywhere along that sliding rule, nothing you can do about that. But we are talking about respectful and responsible heterosexual relationships.

Opinions vary on the sliding rule...and in most cases there is no changing it. Sexual perspectives are set and those that see an inherent evilness regarding sex will always disagree with "normal" relations. Doing the dirty!....dirty, nasty, and sinful! It is no wonder that Christianity came up with the idea that children are born in sin.

The phrase "keep on looking" I am not sure what you mean by that....males and females will always be on the look out for each other...as God designed. If God would not have given us a persistent desire to look, touch, to have and to hold and to have sexual relationships...there would be no one left to mow the grass. It is too much trouble, much easier to just support yourself and do what you want to do...which means no families. So God had to put it in males and females to want one another....a strong desire....a strong want....enough to modify our behavior....not just one person, strong enough to modify the whole human race. Enough to commit our lives to one another and go to work to support a family.... instead of just going off and watching football and having barbeques with no regard to the opposite sex.

Then again does "keep on looking" mean staring or the use of binoculars?

For Christians it only matters so much if you understand that if you have sex, you are married. Either way, sex is for people that are in love....if you end up making love, it is time to start planning a wedding. People can say not to have sex before a wedding, they can condemn those that have sex before a wedding. But as a whole it is irrelevant because few people wait until after they have a wedding to have sex. If the feelings were not that pressing, they probably would not get married.

I am concerned about the affects of people condemning others of man-made sins. Nowhere in the Bible will you find the phrase, You should not have sex before a wedding...in the biblical eras Christian weddings were not an option, a custom, or a requirement...No such process is in the Bible. And the Bible and history proves this....Christian history, proves this. So an accurate and useful discussion should not be about sex before a wedding....because the Bible does not express a concern about it. The discussion on sex should be about its significance....the ramifications....the responsible respect for it. From there it should be about the importance of respect and love for one another and if you have sex, your married, send out the invitations and celebrate the marriage with a beautiful wedding. But having and holding.....if you do, you have chosen your spouse..... make a good choice. If you are not sure of your choice, hold off on the having and holding.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

or fornication?

Based on the ground rules found in Rom 14, If you have to ASK the question, you already have the answer - whatsoever is not of FAITH is SIN.

Next question???

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Most men mind quite a bit, including many Christian men, but that's because they actually have a physical need they are trying to deal with. But you are in a stronger place if it is a teaching you can receive. Holiness doesn't come naturally to the flesh. It will rebel against it with almost unwavering consistency, so it's usually up to Christian women to set the boundaries in a relationship prior to marriage.

I don't believe it just women who should set boundaries. Saying it's up for women only to set boundaries seems to be saying that if sex does happen it's always the woman's fault.