is doing sexual things with a boyfriend/girlfriend sin...

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Grailhunter

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If you are committing adultery "in your heart" that is in spirit violating the Commandment against adultery, by Jesus teaching lust in the heart is already committing adultery.

Just no.
Away of thinking. The scripture does not define if the woman is married or you are married. It is a good scripture to warn against salivating over women. At the beach you could get a kink in your neck or put you in the dog house if your wife is with you. We are not animals....but you cannot commit adultery unless you actually commit adultery. Just because you are looking at shiny new trucks, does not mean you are a thief unless you steal one.

Then keep in mind that it was God that created desire, to have and to hold, and all the processes of sex and procreation, it was not the devil that designed that. Without that God given desire, for men, they would have never grown up. Why would they? Why not just spend your days fishing and drinking wine and sleeping in a lean to. Relationships, supporting families, protecting them, building houses for them and the children, roads cities, and jobs etc....is just too much work....if there was not a desire, life would be a lot easier, but only a few humans to enjoy it.

Which leads to another topic...."want" You got to be careful about what you want and the intensity of want for anything. Whether it is adultery, sexual promiscuity, thievery, or scams, want is the driving force for a lot of sins. The Bible does not say that money is the root of all evil....it says....the love of money is the root of all evil...It is the want.
 
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Grailhunter

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Fornication includes all forms of sexual immorality. This includes two single people being sexually active with each other out of wedlock. Sexually active includes oral sex and fondling each other. Oral sex isn't approved of even in the marriage arrangement. The scriptures have never approved of sex between men and women unless they were married to each other.

No just no.
First off the familiar Christian buzzword fornication is not actually in the scriptures. The word comes out of the Latin and retrofitted into Christian Bibles.

Secondly, there is no requirement anywhere....Old or New Testament for wedding ceremonies or vows. If a couple meet and start kissing, fondling and have sexual intercourse....and they stayed together....they are married. That is what happened in the biblical era, then there was also arrangements by fathers that occurred a lot of times. LOL It was usually a delivery. The groom paid a bride price and the father was required to deliver a virgin daughter. The Hebrew language did not have a word for wed or wedding. In the New Testament there were lots of weddings, but they were Roman. Over a thousand years later Christianity adopted the custom of weddings and vows....And it was the Protestants that first made weddings a requirement.....that is 1500 years after the biblical era. And they adopted the Roman template for weddings. That is why that we have so many Pagan customs in our weddings ceremonies. And I do agree with the Protestants about weddings and vows....and the bigger and more fancy the better.

Oral sex isn't approved. What a joke! Where was it disapproved! God never got into the business of regulating relations between a man and his wife. No specified position, no limitations of orifices. The only limitation is that sex and marriage be between a man and woman. You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. Leviticus 18:22. Since men do not have female genitalia this is referring to males that have anal sex with females. "as one lies with a female" Not that I recommend it!

When the Hebrews had multiple wives, God did not regulate sexual activity between them or how many of them at the same time.

It is better to refer to sexual sin as sexual promiscuity. Sexual relations is a matter of love and respect, respect for yourself and respect for the person you love. They call it making love for a reason, love needs to be part of the equation. Again we are not animals, love, respect, and compassion.....for an event that can produce life....that life is part of the consideration.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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No just no.
First off the familiar Christian buzzword fornication is not actually in the scriptures. The word comes out of the Latin and retrofitted into Christian Bibles.

Secondly, there is no requirement anywhere....Old or New Testament for wedding ceremonies or vows. If a couple meet and start kissing, fondling and have sexual intercourse....and they stay together....they are married. That is what happened in the biblical era, then there was also arrangements by fathers that occurred a lot of times. LOL It was usually a delivery. The groom paid a bride price and the father was required to deliver a virgin daughter. The Hebrew language did not have a word for wed or wedding. In the New Testament there were lots of weddings, but they were Roman. Over a thousand years later Christianity adopted the custom of weddings and vows....And it was the Protestants that first made weddings a requirement.....that is 1500 years after the biblical era. And they adopted the Roman template for weddings. That is why that we have so many Pagan customs in our weddings ceremonies. And I do agree with the Protestants about weddings and vows....and the bigger and more fancy the better.

Oral sex isn't approved. What a joke! Where was it disapproved! God never got into the business of regulating relations between a man and his wife. No specified position, no limitations of orifices. The only limitation is that sex and marriage be between a man and woman. You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. Leviticus 18:22. Since men do not have female genitalia this is referring to males that have anal sex with females. "as one lies with a female" Not that I recommend it!

When the Hebrews had multiple wives, God did not regulate sexual activity between them or how many of them at the same time.

It is better to refer to sexual sin as sexual promiscuity. Sexual relations is a matter of love and respect, respect for yourself and respect for the person you love. They call it making love for a reason, love needs to be part of the equation. Again we are not animals, love, respect, and compassion.....for an event that can produce life....that life is part of the consideration.

The Greek word porneia is a general term for all unlawful sexual intercourse. It includes adultery, prostitution, sexual relations between two single or unmarried individuals, homosexuality, and bestiality.

Jehovah God is the Author of marriage. He arranged for the first marriage. In Eden God saw that it was not good for the man to be alone, that he needed a helper as a complement to him. Genesis 2:18-25 says: “And Jehovah God said, It is not good that the man should remain alone, I will make for him a helper as his counterpart.” Jehovah God filled this need when he made “a woman, and brought her in unto the man”. Immediately thereafter the two are spoken of as man and wife, as being of “one flesh”. Why were they spoken of as man and wife if they were not United as man and wife?
In the scriptures a man and woman didn't just meet and start having sex and if they stayed together they were married. Before a man and woman consummated, there was an arrangement as you said, of a man going to another man who had daughters who were virgins. I bride price had to be paid which the Father of the daughter determined what that bride price was. If the man who was there to get a wife for himself or his son and was able to pay the bride price the father of the daughter would ask her if she agreed to this arrangement, if she agreed, at that moment of her agreeing she was the wife of that man paying the Bride price or his sons wife. So when the woman went into that man's tent who paid the bride price or went into his son's tent she was already his wife before having sex. The sexual act was a consummation of that marriage contract. Like I said you will not fine a place in the scriptures where a woman who came to a man or went into his tent where such arrangement of a bride price being paid before hand and the woman agreeing to be said man's wife. So any man and woman coming together and having sex as you were speaking of, were already considered man and wife before having sex.

As for what you say about a man having multiple wives, one has to understand that a threesome is never mentioned in the Bible. Also we have to understand that the examples in the Bible where polygamy existed, the scriptures show the women would only engage in sexual activity with their husband one-on-one privately. The husband is never said to have sex with all the wives at the same time or on the same day for that matter.
There is an example of polygamy, that two women did engage in sexual activity with a man but not at the same time. They agreed to engage in sexual activity separately. The example is the two daughters of Lot. Genesis 19:30-38 explains the two daughters agreed to engage in sex with their father one at a time but not together at the same time. They were lots daughters not his wives however.

Another example is Rachel and Leah who were married to Jacob (Genesis 29:21-30). Jacob was a man with two wives. In Genesis 30:15 Jacob’s two wives bargained for an opportunity to have sex with him. The passage says that Rachel offered Leah the opportunity to engage in sexual activity with their husband if Leah would give her some mandrakes. This shows a strong implication that the two wives did not engage in sexual activity with their husband at the same time. They engaged separately in sexual activity with him.
There are no examples of threesome sex in the Bible, but there examples of men with more than one wife. In these cases the women would have sex with their husband privately, there's no evidence in the scriptures that the husband had sex with all his wives at the same time.
When it comes to love, yes it needs to be part of the equation, but the first love is to the True God Jehovah first, which means I agree we stay within the scriptures, with the understanding that there's no scriptures that approve of threesomes among married people. You can't find in any scriptures where the wives had sex with there husbands at the same time, but instead the scriptures show they had one on one sex privately with their husband and not at the same time.
Also before a virgin had sex with a man, arrangements of a man paying a bride price for a virgin and that woman agreeing to this arrangement therefore becoming that man's wife or his son's wife would happen before having sex. So I say again you will not find in the scriptures that God approves of sex between two single people unless that man and woman are man and wife before having sex.
 
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Lambano

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Oral sex isn't approved. What a joke! Where was it disapproved!
A Catholic brother on another forum says that the traditional prohibition against oral sex comes from Barnabas 10:8 in which the author makes what I would consider a spurious typological interpretation of the Levitical prohibition against eating weasels. (I’ve never heard it called “eating the weasel” before.) Since Barnabas is not canonical, I would consider the 1 Corinthians 7:3 requirement for us husbands to render due benevolence(s) to our wives and the positive allusions to oral sex in the Song of Songs to be normative for Christian married couples.
 
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Truman

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Sex outside of a marriage is fornication...period.
The marriage bed is undefiled. If both are fine with it, knock yourselves out. Hurting someone is not cool. Giving the person you love pleasure is the best!
 

DuckieLady

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Remember for the rest of your life: boyfriend privileges are NOT husband privileges.

He can sit right down and he isn't owed anything. They always act like you owe them something, no offense guys but it happens, but you don't owe him anything. It is not your job.

We are married to Christ first and it is better to stay faithful to Him and what he has called us to do.

It is easier in your 30s to not care as much about romance, but it is harder when you are younger, so like Paul said, it is better to marry if you can.

And if he doesn't care enough to, then pffffttt then.
 

Grailhunter

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The Greek word porneia is a general term for all unlawful sexual intercourse. It includes adultery, prostitution, sexual relations between two single or unmarried individuals, homosexuality, and bestiality.

In correct. The Greek word Pornia is related to prostitution in one form or another. Which was not a negative term in the Greco-Roman culture. The Christian version of the word porneia gets a little complicated.

If you noticed there was no wedding ceremony or vows in Eden. And then you can read the rest of the Bible and find no requirement for wedding ceremonies or vows. The Hebrew Language had no word for wed or wedding. Nor does the Bible state the correct way for a man and woman to meet and join in a union. You are inventing beliefs....welcome to the proud crowd. It was 1500 years after the biblical period that Christianity developed a requirement for weddings ceremonies and vows, and that is a fact.

Here is truth about the word Fornication.
Translations of fornication from the Christian perspective
noun
πορνεία
prostitution, whoring, harlotry, whoredom,
συνουσία
fornication, coition, intercourse, copulation

From the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11-12
The worship of idols of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

But this all involves translational errors and Christian reflection on later traditions that were retrofitted for 16th and 17th century translations of the English Bible.


When the Greek text was translated into the Latin Vulgate, the Greek word porneia was translated to fornication. This is how the English word fornication arrived in the original Geneva and King James Version of the Bible. Part of the problem was that the New Testament was an attempt to write Christian moral standards using a Pagan language…ie Greek. But the Greeks did not have the same moral standards that Christians had. So the Christians writers were taking Greek words and adjusting the definitions of them, even coming up with new Greek words. Why? In the Greco-Roman culture sex was not considered immoral. It did not matter if it was temple prostitutes or orgies. Married Roman men were free to have sex with who they wanted…female or male. In the Roman culture adultery only pertained to wives. By Christian standards it was a disgusting arrangement. So Christian writers were tasked with conveying sexual morality from a culture that was without sexual morals and their language reflected the absence of words to describe sexual immorality. Now was all this confusing to the translators of the scriptures, it is a matter of debate.

Pornea in the Greek society mostly is a reference to prostitution which was not wrong in their culture. For example pornography, is an ancient Greek word that mean writings or paintings of prostitutes and many Roman homes had murals of sex acts and or prostitute on their walls.

But in the Bible the Greek word Pornea and its variances appear several times. In all cases the Christian writers were using it as some form of sexual immorality.
Examples:
πορνείας·…
porneias … Sexual immorality
πορνείᾳ …
porneiai … Sexual immorality in the plural
πορνεῦσαι … To commit sexual immorality involving sexual acts
πορνείαν … Idolatry involving sexual acts
πόρνος … A person that practices sexual immorality
πόρνοι … Refering to as a group of the sexually immoral
πορνεῖαι … inflectional, more or less dirty thoughts


Appearing in these scriptures
Matthew 5:32, 5:19, Mark 7:21, John 8:4, Acts 15:20, 5:29, 21:25, Romans 1:29* 1st Corinthians 5:1, 5:9, 5:10, 6:13, 6:18, 7:2, 10:8, 2nd Corinthians 12:21, Galatians 5:19, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, 1st Thessalonians 4:3, Jude 1:7, Revelation 2:14, 2:14, 2:20, 2:21, 9:21, 14:8, 17:2, 17:4, 18:3, 18:19, 19:2


But in no case does it simply apply to two unmarried people having sex, for a very good reason. The New Testament does not have a lot to say about romantic love. But to say that Pornea, porneia pertains to a couple having sex outside of wedlock would be inaccurate, since the Bible has no requirements for a wedding ceremonies or vows. This would setup a catch 22 were you could not have sex unless you are married and you had to have sex to be married. Marriages were formed by the union and most of the time in early Christianity a lady’s father would chose who they would be married to, as was practiced in many Old Testament unions of marriages.

The evolution of the word Fornicate or Fornication
Fornicate comes from the Latin, the term fornix means arch or vaulted ceiling. In Ancient Rome, it was known that prostitutes would wait for their customers out of the hot sun or rain in areas that had cover…vaulted ceilings. The Latin word fornix became a euphemism for brothels and the Latin verb fornicare referred to a man visiting a brothel. Meaning a man being serviced by prostitutes.


Of course then, St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate translation of the scriptures used the word fornication.

The first recorded use in English is in the 14th century in a poem called the Cursor Mundi.

The first English Bibles to use the word fornication was the Geneva Bible and the King James Version of the Bible. 16th and 17th centuries respectively.

So bottom line, marriages in the Bible were formed by the union. This is a biblical and a historical fact. Even if there was a Hebrew marriage celebration, there was no biblical requirement stated for ceremonies or vows....just the Bridal Chamber were the couple consummate their marriage. Modern Jews still use a symbolic bridal chamber that is more of a canopy.

The fact that it is the union that forms a marriage still exist in civil laws. In most states and countries a couple that does not have sex after the wedding ceremony can get their marriage annulled.
 
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Grailhunter

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Sex outside of a marriage is fornication...period.
The marriage bed is undefiled. If both are fine with it, knock yourselves out. Hurting someone is not cool. Giving the person you love pleasure is the best!
See post 248
 

Grailhunter

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A Catholic brother on another forum says that the traditional prohibition against oral sex comes from Barnabas 10:8 in which the author makes what I would consider a spurious typological interpretation of the Levitical prohibition against eating weasels. (I’ve never heard it called “eating the weasel” before.) Since Barnabas is not canonical, I would consider the 1 Corinthians 7:3 requirement for us husbands to render due benevolence(s) to our wives and the positive allusions to oral sex in the Song of Songs to be normative for Christian married couples.

Well you are right.
All due respect. It is called making love for a reason, married couples can love one another as they see fit.
Like the Bible says....As a loving hind and a graceful doe, Let her breasts satisfy you at all times; Be exhilarated always with her love. And then kiss her feet in the morning!
 

Grailhunter

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the Bible where polygamy existed, the scriptures show the women would only engage in sexual activity with their husband one-on-one privately. The husband is never said to have sex with all the wives at the same time or on the same day for that matter.

Show a scriptural regulation for this. In practice it would be in the Mosaic Law since even the food rations of wives are discussed. If we come up with beliefs about things that are not in the Bible, then the sky is the limit and we can really come up with an imaginative religion.
 

Grailhunter

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If the man who was there to get a wife for himself or his son and was able to pay the bride price the father of the daughter would ask her if she agreed to this arrangement,

Here ya go, imaginative beliefs. In the Old Testament women were treated as property. I am not saying that they never had a choice but it definitely is not defined in tradition or the Mosaic Law.

The requirement for consensual marriage even in Christianity did not occur until 1140 AD.
 

Grailhunter

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So any man and woman coming together and having sex as you were speaking of, were already considered man and wife before having sex.

No again, but close.
Not all women were betrothed before marriage.
Betrothed is never defined in the Bible as a marriage. But it does have some legal ramification that put Christ's mother in an awkward position.
 

Grailhunter

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Another example is Rachel and Leah who were married to Jacob (Genesis 29:21-30). Jacob was a man with two wives. In Genesis 30:15 Jacob’s two wives bargained for an opportunity to have sex with him. The passage says that Rachel offered Leah the opportunity to engage in sexual activity with their husband if Leah would give her some mandrakes. This shows a strong implication that the two wives did not engage in sexual activity with their husband at the same time. They engaged separately in sexual activity with him.

Interesting case, Jacob married into a family of witches. Were Rachel and Leah betrothed?
No videos of Hebrew sexual activities or written restrictions in marital relations.
And if you read on you will see that Laban gave his daughter handmaidens that eventfully became Jacob's wives or concubines
Laban practiced divinity- witchcraft
Rachel and Leah used mandrakes...belladonna...witch's brew
They stole Laban's idols and put it under their saddle....basically a fertility ritual.
Jacob's learnt from them....his special rods that made livestock fertile.
When he went to meet God He hid his idols.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Show a scriptural regulation for this. In practice it would be in the Mosaic Law since even the food rations of wives are discussed. If we come up with beliefs about things that are not in the Bible, then the sky is the limit and we can really come up with an imaginative religion.

In the scriptures concerning Rachel and Leah at Genesis 30:14-16 who were the wives of Jacob, Reuben who was Leah son had found some mandrakes in the field and brought them to his mother Leah. When Rachel saw the mandrakes she asked Leah for some of them, which she eventually did give Rachel some mandrakes, and Rachel gave Leah some of the mandrakes for their husband Jacob would sleep with Leah that night. Obviously both Rachel and Leah were not sleeping with their husband at the same time on the same night. When Jacob came from the field Leah met him and told him that she had hired him for the night by giving Rachel mandrakes, so Jacob laid with Leah that night, he didn't lay with both Rachel and Leah that night. There was a rivalry going on between Rachel and Leah so it wasn't the custom of Rachel and Leah to sleep with their husband at the same time as some threesome. The scripture at Genesis 30:15 concerning the encounter between Rachel and Leah isn't what you would call a great sisterly relationship.
 

DuckieLady

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Interesting case, Jacob married into a family of witches. Were Rachel and Leah betrothed?
No videos of Hebrew sexual activities or written restrictions in marital relations.
And if you read on you will see that Laban gave his daughter handmaidens that eventfully became Jacob's wives or concubines
Laban practiced divinity- witchcraft
Rachel and Leah used mandrakes...belladonna...witch's brew
They stole Laban's idols and put it under their saddle....basically a fertility ritual.
Jacob's learnt from them....his special rods that made livestock fertile.
When he went to meet God He hid his idols.
I've always wondered why she wanted to take his idols... But they prayed to God? So I don't get it.

Mandrakes are food. Belladonna has always been a common medicine and I know nothing about witches brew.

Jacob's learnt from them....his special rods that made livestock fertile.
Did they use dowsing rods back then?
 

quietthinker

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I've always wondered why she wanted to take his idols... But they prayed to God? So I don't get it.
It's easy and commonly done....we superimpose our understanding of God onto these ancient people......and then wonder why we can't reconcile certain attitudes/points of view they held and behaviours they engaged.
Fact is, the influence of the nations around them was endemic and many of their practices were adopted along with their understanding of the God who spoke to Abraham.
Understanding this helps me not jump to my 21st century conclusions too quickly. It in fact gives me breathing space to know that God is far greater and kinder than my narrow view.
 

Grailhunter

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In the scriptures concerning Rachel and Leah at Genesis 30:14-16 who were the wives of Jacob, Reuben who was Leah son had found some mandrakes in the field and brought them to his mother Leah. When Rachel saw the mandrakes she asked Leah for some of them, which she eventually did give Rachel some mandrakes, and Rachel gave Leah some of the mandrakes for their husband Jacob would sleep with Leah that night. Obviously both Rachel and Leah were not sleeping with their husband at the same time on the same night. When Jacob came from the field Leah met him and told him that she had hired him for the night by giving Rachel mandrakes, so Jacob laid with Leah that night, he didn't lay with both Rachel and Leah that night. There was a rivalry going on between Rachel and Leah so it wasn't the custom of Rachel and Leah to sleep with their husband at the same time as some threesome. The scripture at Genesis 30:15 concerning the encounter between Rachel and Leah isn't what you would call a great sisterly relationship.

How many years do you think Jacob and Rachel and Leah and Zilpah and Bilhah were engaged in sexual relationships. Are you expecting the Bible to give a play by play report on sexual interactions? Not going to happen. A guy has four women, since there is no cultural or religious restrictions, what do you think he is going to do with them? I can think and you can think, but no one can prove anything. Whatever makes you feel good.
 

Grailhunter

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I've always wondered why she wanted to take his idols... But they prayed to God? So I don't get it.

Mandrakes are food. Belladonna has always been a common medicine and I know nothing about witches brew.


Did they use dowsing rods back then?

Because mandrakes contain deliriant hallucinogenic tropane alkaloids and the shape of their roots often resembles human figures, they have been associated with a variety of superstitious practices throughout history. They have long been used in magic rituals, and even today also in contemporary pagan traditions such as Wicca and Odinism
Belladonna is another associated ingredient in "witch's brew" if you look it up can also be used for a hallucinogen. It has been used by witches for millenniums.
Laban was obviously using witchcraft.
Sitting on various idols was a ritual for fertility and the ladies were wanting to get pregnant. That is in the storyline.
I can only guess that they did use dowsing rods. But divinity is the practice of witchcraft and that is in the storyline also.
But Jacob was using rods or reeds to cause increased reproduction in his herd.
Jacob continued on with idols and those that worshiped idols, because he and his group had to hid them when he was going to meet with God.
The storyline is full of it.
 
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MatthewG

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If two human beings consent what is the problem? Though now in my own life would only really desire to that type of thing with my wife. Sex was created for us to enjoy: but it would be most enjoyed and enjoyable with two people who care, and love each other.
 
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