Is God finished with Israel?

[Davy]

You should not only do your homework, but you also need to be inspired. In this case, you're not inspired because I've done more than enough homework, brother.

I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU. Like I said before, those who HAVE STUDIED their Old Testament histories can TELL those who have not. And on this matter, YOU HAVE NOT, at least not according to what is actually written. Maybe you got some book or lesson guide from the Church system you attend, that's not good enough. It has to be God's Word as written, and not some doctored up theory by men's traditions. The two 'houses' is written in God's Word, and in MANY BIBLE SCRIPTURES.

I've had all of these discussions with Keraz, and though I think we respect each other, we have no problem sharing our differences. In the case of his view of the N. Kingdom of Israel and the S. Kingdom of Judah we certainly disagree. He thinks Israel went off with Assyria to eventually become part of European Christianity. I think he relegates Judah to the garbage bin? He thinks Jews will be condemned, with only a small remnant, perhaps, getting saved.

I don't care about your differences; is what we say actually The Word of God as written or not, that's the real matter. And what Keraz and I agree on is that the SPLIT of the old kingdom of Israel is... written. What all he may believe about the Jews I have not said I agreed to, so don't go trying to put words in my mouth.

Yet I very much... believe, actually 'know', that the majority of the ten tribe "house of Israel" were scattered mostly to Asia Minor and Europe, and became the foundations of the western Christian nations. I will never deny that, because there is still enough evidence for it that aligns with Bible prophecy regarding the ten tribe "house of Israel". Since it sounds like you have a preconceived notion against that idea, then God isn't going to reveal it to you in His Word, and it is there written, and won't go away just because some like to say it's a myth. Sadly the majority won't find out about it until the day of Christ's future return.

Now concerning the "house of Judah", God promised per 1 Kings 11 that He would always leave one tribe at Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and Jerusalem's sake. And thus He has, even during their 70 years Babylon captivity, a very small remnant of Judah remaining in the holy land. And after the 70 years, a small remnant of Jews returned, but the larger majority of Jews of the "house of Judah" were then scattered like the ten tribes were. They too migrated to western lands.

Today, it is only Jews of the "house of Judah" (along with the strangers with them, and a small remnant of the ten northern tribes that refused Jeroboam's calf idols), that make up the nation state of Israel in the middle east. And most of the Jews in control of the state of Israel today likely aren't true bloodline Judah, but foreigners that converted to Judaism long ago. The larger portion of Jews are still scattered among the nations, just like the ten tribes are. Thus God is still... keeping His promise to David and Jerusalem regarding today's nation state of Israel. There is still just 'one tribe' dwelling there, technically per His promise of 1 Kings 11. And it is represented by Judah, from which came the title 'Jew'.

In final Lord Jesus at His coming is going remove the "tares" from among the Jews that crept in long ago per Bible history, and it's those that Keraz was likely pointing to. They represent the false Jews that Jesus pointed to as the "synagogue of Satan" in Revelation 2 & 3. And that is linked with the event of the last verse of Zechariah 14 about the Canaanites no more being in the house of God for Christ's future reign.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU.

You know what, Davy? I don't care what you believe or don't believe. But don't confuse disagreement with a lack of study. You could study something twice as much as me and still disagree with a correct view I hold to.

Yet I very much... believe, actually 'know', that the majority of the ten tribe "house of Israel" were scattered mostly to Asia Minor and Europe, and became the foundations of the western Christian nations.

No, they didn't become the "foundation" for Western Christian nations! How ridiculous! Even if you've read the Bible massively, you obviously haven't read much about demographics and ethnology.

Now concerning the "house of Judah", God promised per 1 Kings 11 that He would always leave one tribe at Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and Jerusalem's sake. And thus He has, even during their 70 years Babylon captivity, a very small remnant of Judah remaining in the holy land. And after the 70 years, a small remnant of Jews returned, but the larger majority of Jews of the "house of Judah" were then scattered like the ten tribes were. They too migrated to western lands.

The tribes are for all intents and purposes gone. Yes, some names with "Levi" still remain, but it is of no import. The 12 tribes merged into a single people, which was what God planned. And all 12 tribes have their inheritance now through the Jewish People.

The importance of the distinction of Judah remained up until Christ came. And the importance of the distinction of Levi remained while the Law remained in force. But they are no longer important, in my view.

Some think that "Jew," coming from "Judah," indicates that Jews are exclusively from the tribe of Judah. But that hasn't been true since Israel divided into two kingdoms.

At that time, true religious worship remained in the Southern Kingdom of Judah, causing many from all the other tribes to travel there and remain in Judah. Ultimately, the "Jewish People" constituted all 12 tribes. And the distinction of the tribes became meaningless, as God intended.

Reference to the different tribes in prophecy were simply given at a time when that still made since to the Hebrew People. The promise was always for a "nation," and not for "tribes." The promise was for a complete nation, never more to be uprooted. I call it the "Jewish Hope."

You don't have to agree with me, and you certainly don't have to get angry that we disagree. Be at peace with your own position, and let me be at peace with mine.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And you falsely accuse me of lies? You are a hypocrite. The Book of Hosea was originally given by God through His prophet Hosea SPECIFICALLY to the ten tribe kingdom of the "house of Israel"! Oh, but you refuse to RECOGNIZE those Scriptures in God's Word about the two 'houses', if I recall per your own posts! Just the FACT that Apostle Paul quoted from HOSEA TO GENTILES regarding God's final prophecy to the ten tribe "house of Israel" means BELIEVING GENTILES ARE INCLUDED!



More denials, just like the lies the false Jews teach.

You have me confused with someone else.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not making up lies, you revealed you hate any idea about the name ISRAEL being involved with Christ's Church.

I don't hate it, I simply maintain that it is false doctrine.

You purposefully steer... away from that Truth in God's Word, denying it. And there can only be one cause for that, deceptions by the false Jews.

Be still and don't be afraid. If I am deceived, as you claim, then correct me. Make your case.

It's the 'false' Jews that push the lie that they only are Israel today, when the actual historical fact is that today's Jews are only a small portion of the total number of Israelites, just as it was in Rehoboam's day also after God split the old kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11.

You are mistaken about that. The idea of "lost" tribes is false. Meditate on Jesus' encounter with the Woman at the well.

And even among the Jews, there's a distinction with the Ashkenazim and Sephardi Jews, with one group not really from bloodline Israel.

Okay. So what? I like a good conspiracy theory but this forum is meant to discuss the meaning of Biblical texts. Anyone who claims that Israel is something other than a country in the Middle East will never understand the Bible.

So either you have been deceived by Jewish traditions and their hype, or you intentionally are out to deceive others about that. And either way, your lack of study of Bible history is obvious.

Why do you ramble on like a teen-age girl? You make a lot of claims about what I believe and why I believe it but you have yet to demonstrate comprehension of what I say or what the Bible says. You are captured by the spirit of the age. Repent and maybe Jesus will free you from it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have me confused with someone else.

I don't know who he was referring to, but I've answered his point before. Paul's quotation concerned the precedent set by God in being will to cut off His chosen People for a while, before reinstating them. It sets the example for the inclusion of Pagan Gentiles who may likewise be included by grace.

 

[Keraz]

You are mistaken about that. The idea of "lost" tribes is false. Meditate on Jesus' encounter with the Woman at the well.

Yes do that!
Jesus said: I am sent to save the lost house of Israel. Matthew 15:24
Was He successful? Not if you think the Jews are Israel.
But He was and the true Israelites have received Salvation, the Christian peoples.

You said the Samaritan's are [were] the ten Northern tribes.
This is so wrong and such a biased opinion, it shows your lack of any in-depth study of who the Samaritans were and what happened to the House of Israel. The Bible and the historical record prove how wrong you are.
Tha Samaritans were peoples from other parts of the Assyrian Empire, Israel were settled up by the Caucasus Mountains, but soon migrated from there and are now scattered around the world as the Caucasian peoples.

Paul's quotation concerned the precedent set by God in being will to cut off His chosen People for a while, before reinstating them

Although Paul does say that Jews can be grafted back, IF they become Christian. Some have; to their credit, but 99.5% have not.
Nowhere does the Bible say the Lord will forgive and reinstate the rest. Isaiah 22:14 plainly says they will die for their sins.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes do that!
Jesus said: I am sent to save the lost house of Israel. Matthew 15:24
Was He successful? Not if you think the Jews are Israel.
But He was and the true Israelites have received Salvation, the Christian peoples.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. Just because Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of house of Israel, doesn't mean that he expected success. And neither does it follow that the lost sheep of the house of Israel is comprised of Christian peoples.

Primarily, Jesus went to see the lost sheep of the house of Israel, not the house of Israel itself. Bear in mind, "house" in this context, is another word for "dynasty". The dynasty of Israel was destroyed, but the "sheep" were still around. Apparently, some among the Ten Tribes returned to their ancestral homes and Jesus went to minister to them.

Take a closer look at this passage:

21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.”

The Lord explains why he withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. He was sent to the lost sheep who lived there. He was not sent, as you suppose to minister to Christian peoples, he was sent to minister to the relatives of those who lived in the region designated to the tribe of Asher. Thus we understand that Jesus is drawing a comparison between the Hebrew peoples who lived in that region with the Gentile peoples, specifically Canaanites, who also lived in that region.

As the story goes, a Canaanite woman approached Jesus, asking that he cast out a demon from her daughter. Jesus, testing her faith, mentioned the fact that he was NOT sent to her or her people. He was sent to the Hebrews living in that region.

You said the Samaritan's are [were] the ten Northern tribes.
This is so wrong and such a biased opinion, it shows your lack of any in-depth study of who the Samaritans were and what happened to the House of Israel. The Bible and the historical record prove how wrong you are.
That Samaritans were peoples from other parts of the Assyrian Empire, Israel were settled up by the Caucasus Mountains, but soon migrated from there and are now scattered around the world as the Caucasian peoples.

I place give more weight to the Gospel accounts than Biblical scholars.

It isn't that difficult to conclude from the gospel account, that Jesus was speaking to another Hebrew person, who traced her lineage from Jacob. We find the account of the woman at the well in John's gospel John 4:1-26

(Verse 4) Jesus stopped in a city called "Sychar"
(Verse 6) Jesus sat at Jacob's well
(Verse 7) He met a woman of Samaria
(Verse 9) She was not a Jew; Jews have no dealings with Samaritans
(Verse 12) Jacob was her "father" i.e. her direct ancestor.
(Verse 20) Her fathers worshipped in the local area. Jeroboam established golden calf worship in that region.
(Verse 21) In keeping with the schism of Shechem, 1 Kings 12:16, the woman argues with Jesus over the proper place to worship.

From this evidence, Jesus is clearly speaking to another Hebrew, not a Gentile, who claims that Jacob is her ancestor.

Although Paul does say that Jews can be grafted back, IF they become Christian. Some have; to their credit, but 99.5% have not.
Nowhere does the Bible say the Lord will forgive and reinstate the rest. Isaiah 22:14 plainly says they will die for their sins.

By the time Paul writes his epistle to the Romans concerning the destiny of Israel, his focus is on a unified Israel consisting of progeny from at least 11 of the tribes. His word is consistent with Revelation 7, where twelve tribes are mentioned.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I don't know who he was referring to, but I've answered his point before. Paul's quotation concerned the precedent set by God in being will to cut off His chosen People for a while, before reinstating them. It sets the example for the inclusion of Pagan Gentiles who may likewise be included by grace.

What's weird is that he and I were having a nice discussion until something happened which mystifies me. Oh well.

 

[Davy]

You know what, Davy? I don't care what you believe or don't believe. But don't confuse disagreement with a lack of study. You could study something twice as much as me and still disagree with a correct view I hold to.

Then your idea of Bible 'study', regarding this matter, must have been like you reading an unimportant novel, skimming over it to never let it soak in.

No, they didn't become the "foundation" for Western Christian nations! How ridiculous! Even if you've read the Bible massively, you obviously haven't read much about demographics and ethnology.

Oh YES they were... the foundation for the Western Christian nations!

God's Birthright promises wound up on Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh per 1 Chronicles 5. And the prophecy to Ephraim in Genesis 48 was that his seed would become "a multitude of nations", and that his brother Manasseh would also become "great".

If you had... paid attention in study of 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17, you would have KNOWN that God setup one of the tribe of Ephraim over the ten northern tribes of Israel when He split old Israel into 2 separate kingdoms. God made Jeroboam 'king of Israel' (over the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel"). The northern kingdom also began then to be known as the HOUSE OF ISRAEL, and that did NOT involve the Jews at all, and there is NO WAY to say it did per that BIBLE HISTORY as written.

And then still, IF... you had paid attention, you'd would have 'known' beyond all doubt from the WRITTEN Scripture how God later scattered the TEN TRIBE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL out of the holy lands first, while the Jews of the "kingdom of Judah" in the south at Jerusalem-Judea remained in the land!

The tribes are for all intents and purposes gone.

That is just complete ignorance of God's Word about the prophecies about and to the ten tribe house of Israel, especially involving their final gathering per prophecy like Ezekiel 37.

Only a DECEIVED JEW would think that the ten tribes of Israel are forever gone!


I've already CLEARLY SHOWN how Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea to Roman Gentiles about Christ's Salvation, LINKING THE TEN TRIBE "house of Israel" to them in FINAL in Christ's Salvation!!!

Apostle Paul speaking to Roman Gentile believers on Christ, quoting from the Book of Hosea...

Rom 9:23-26
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God.'
KJV

That applies to BOTH believing Israelites of the ten tribes, and to believing Gentiles among them, i.e., CHRIST'S CHURCH.

Hos 1:8-10
8 Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, "Call his name Lo-ammi: for ye are not My people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not my people', there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'"
KJV

Verse 10 is where Paul quoted from in Hosea. Paul APPLIED THAT TO those Roman Gentile believers he was speaking to there in Romans 9!


But that Hosea prophecy was ORIGINALLY WRITTEN TO THE TEN TRIBES OF ISRAEL, known then as the "house of Israel" after the 1 Kings 11 split.

Hos 1:1-4
1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

That Hosea prophecy was given in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah (3 tribe southern kingdom), and Jeroboam king of Israel (ten northern tribe kingdom).

2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, "Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD."

3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

4 And the LORD said unto him, "Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
KJV

God was speaking about the ten tribe northern "house of Israel". That did NOT involve the Jews of the southern kingdom at all.

What that points to and reveals, with Paul quoting from Hosea about the ten northern tribes of Israel, which God scattered among the Gentiles first, and Paul linking that Hosea prophecy with believing Gentiles, proves WHERE THE TEN TRIBES WERE SCATTERED MOSTLY TO, i.e., THE CHRISTIAN WEST.

Like Jesus said, He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (ten tribes). And that "house of Israel" label after God split Israel only applied to the TEN TRIBES, and not to the Jews!

So good luck with your false Jew attempts to STEAL the kingdom, ain't gonna' happen!

 

[Davy]

You have me confused with someone else.

Oh no I don't. You are the one telling lies against the Scripture I showed you, per your post #268 for one example. And you claimed in your post 266 that I was telling lies against you?

You disagreed with what I showed you with Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 about the "commonwealth of Israel", and you directly pointed to that to mean THE NATION STATE OF ISRAEL, which is totally ridiculous...

CadyandZoe said:
"Negative. Paul gave his life fighting against those who insisted that one must enter into the commonwealth of Israel."

Paul fought against the entering into "the commonwealth of Israel"????

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
KJV

Made "nigh" to WHAT "by the blood of Christ"???

Nigh to the "commonwealth of Israel" of course!!!!

So WHICH "commonwealth of Israel" must Paul been pointing to INVOLVING CHRIST JESUS???

NOT the Israel of the unbelieving Jews, like YOU are wrongly thinking. Paul was pointing to the CHRISTIAN CHURCH with that "commonwealth of Israel" phrase!!!

It's the false JEWS that hate that idea by Paul; they don't want anything involving Jesus of Nazareth connected with the name Israel. They think that name belongs ONLY TO THEM, the bunch of hypocrites!

 

[Davy]

I don't hate it, I simply maintain that it is false doctrine.


Be still and don't be afraid. If I am deceived, as you claim, then correct me. Make your case.

You are mistaken about that. The idea of "lost" tribes is false. Meditate on Jesus' encounter with the Woman at the well.

Okay. So what? I like a good conspiracy theory but this forum is meant to discuss the meaning of Biblical texts. Anyone who claims that Israel is something other than a country in the Middle East will never understand the Bible.


Why do you ramble on like a teen-age girl? You make a lot of claims about what I believe and why I believe it but you have yet to demonstrate comprehension of what I say or what the Bible says. You are captured by the spirit of the age. Repent and maybe Jesus will free you from it.

No sense in conversing with one pushing false Jew doctrines like you.

It's obvious your Jewish brethren have taught you well to come here pushing lies against Christ's Church ALSO KNOWN AS THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL!!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

God's Birthright promises wound up on Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh per 1 Chronicles 5. And the prophecy to Ephraim in Genesis 48 was that his seed would become "a multitude of nations", and that his brother Manasseh would also become "great".

The scholars I read view "multitude of nations" as the equivalent of "multitude of families in the similitude of nations." In other words, Ephraim would become a virtual nation in itself due to the massive number of families joining it. This was literally fulfilled in the Northern Kingdom of Israel, consisting prominently of Ephraim, who had within it a major god for that Kingdom. It was not fulfilled in the NT era.

But thanks. Now I know where you get this absurd idea, which has no basis in fact whatsoever other than this misinterpreted verse.

If you had... paid attention in study of 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17, you would have KNOWN that God setup one of the tribe of Ephraim over the ten northern tribes of Israel when He split old Israel into 2 separate kingdoms. God made Jeroboam 'king of Israel' (over the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel"). The northern kingdom also began then to be known as the HOUSE OF ISRAEL, and that did NOT involve the Jews at all, and there is NO WAY to say it did per that BIBLE HISTORY as written.

I've known that since the 70s, brother.

And then still, IF... you had paid attention, you'd would have 'known' beyond all doubt from the WRITTEN Scripture how God later scattered the TEN TRIBE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL out of the holy lands first, while the Jews of the "kingdom of Judah" in the south at Jerusalem-Judea remained in the land!

I've known that since the 70s, brother.

Only a DECEIVED JEW would think that the ten tribes of Israel are forever gone!

Only someone with great imagination would think the 10 Tribes still exist somewhere in Europe!

I've already CLEARLY SHOWN how Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea to Roman Gentiles about Christ's Salvation, LINKING THE TEN TRIBE "house of Israel" to them in FINAL in Christ's Salvation!!!

You completely misinterpreted Paul in the matter of Israel's having their name temporarily removed and then restored. Paul used this application to Israel as a precedent for justifying the salvation of the Gentiles, who began without a name at all.

Apostle Paul speaking to Roman Gentile believers on Christ, quoting from the Book of Hosea...

Rom 9:23-26
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God.'
KJV

Paul was speaking of Israel, who had been under the Law. Under the Law, an individual idolater would be cut off from his people. And if the whole people committed idolatry, then the whole people would be cut off from the land, and be as if they were no longer under the covenant and no longer had the name of God's Chosen People.

Paul did not take "Israel" out and install "Gentiles" in its place! Instead, he used the precedent set in the instance with Israel, in which God gave them grace, to apply it to Gentiles who equally needed grace as pagans. Israel began with a name and lost it, and the Gentiles began without a name at all. Both were given access to grace, by Paul's reason.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What's weird is that he and I were having a nice discussion until something happened which mystifies me. Oh well.

All of these debates sometimes become overly hostile, which can turn us into "multiple personalities" in an instant!

 

[Davy]

The scholars I read view "multitude of nations" as the equivalent of "multitude of families in the similitude of nations."

Yeah, a bunch of JEWISH scholars that also believe the ten tribes of Israel are GONE AND NO MORE, would say such a thing.

Amos 9:9-11
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, "The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us."

11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
KJV

That is pointing to the TEN LOST TRIBES OF ISRAEL, called the "house of Israel" after the 1 Kings 11 split. Ezekiel 37 also reveals the gathering of the lost ten tribes under the "stick of Ephraim", so how is it those scholars are not aware of those Scriptures???

So you also gonna' tell me there's no Jewish scholars that AGREE with the future return of the lost ten tribes of Israel? They DO exist too, why not seek those Jewish scholars out instead? Oh, I know why, you instead just push things that fit your FALSE AGENDA against the Scriptures. How else is a true Bible believer supposed to understand you, since you reject Scriptures like the ones I have quoted about the return of the ten tribes in final, especially per the Book of Hosea that Apostle Paul quoted to Gentile believers?

But thanks. Now I know where you get this absurd idea, which has no basis in fact whatsoever other than this misinterpreted verse.

What is absurd is the FALSE JEW AGENDA you clearly reveal you are on. You are not to be trusted.

 

[Davy]

All of these debates sometimes become overly hostile, which can turn us into "multiple personalities" in an instant!

I have no difficulty at all finding out those who come here that reject... Bible Scripture in favor of men's agendas instead. It easy, all one need do is recognize how those fight against plainly written Scripture!

 

[Davy]

Only someone with great imagination would think the 10 Tribes still exist somewhere in Europe!

Only once one understands... the Bible prophecies that God gave about the scattered ten tribes, can one begin to look for its history and fulfillment. The false Jews are against getting any understanding on the matter, and work against anyone else that does have the understanding.

Even in Matthew 21, Jesus speaking to the BLIND JEWS, gave them a parable of the householder (God The Father) that planted a vineyard. The husbandmen represented the blind Jews that killed the Son. Those blind Jews even pronounced their own sentence when Jesus asked them what should be done to those husbandmen. And then Jesus said...

Matt 21:43
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
KJV

And thus it was REMOVED from the unbelieving Jews and given to the "multitude of nations" that would become the western Christian nations under Christ Jesus! Lord Jesus did say... that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (ten tribes). That is why The Gospel had to FIRST BE PREACHED in to the nations of Asia Minor and Europe! No big mystery, but false Jews love to create a fake mystery around it.

No wonder The Gospel took HOLD SO FAST in the nations of Asia Minor and Europe after the Passion of Christ!!! And then from there, The Gospel went out to the rest of the nations.

But that little old "one tribe" living in the nation state of Israel today, they want to claim they ONLY represent God's Israel today! I feel sorry for them, because of the shame they are going be under when Lord Jesus Christ does return and they learn what they have done against Him and against His Church! No wonder Lord Jesus showed in Luke 23:27-30 those Jews will wish for the mountains and hills to fall upon them because of the shame they will feel at His return.

 

[Davy]

OK Brethren in Christ...

Here's a little tidbit that goes along with Christ's parable of the householder that planted a vineyard per Matthew 21 when speaking to the blind Jews. We were shown early on in the Book of Isaiah what that vineyard represented and who was to be over it. The Bible student will only come by this info through strict Bible study, keeping to the simplicity of the written Scripture, and rejecting doctrines of men.

Isa 5:1-7
5 Now will I sing to My wellbeloved a song of My beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

One could... see that "My beloved" being about The Father pointing to His Son, but Jesus pointed to The Father as the "householder" in His parable of the vineyard in Matthew 21.
Point here being about a "vineyard in a very fruitful hill" (God's Zion?)

2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

Those who've done their Bible study should recognize some of these symbols having been used before about Satan and his workers, even within Christ's parable of the sower. To produce much fruit, one needs to plow up the hard compacted wayside path, clear out the stones, clear out the thorns, and drive away the fowls, so the seed can reach good prepared ground, and produce much fruit. So God is using the idea of agriculture here for His Kingdom under Christ with producing much fruit. That's the relation once we understand this along with Christ's parable of the vineyard in Matthew 21.

3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

God then asks Judah (the king tribe), what else could He have done to His vineyard so it could produce good grapes? So why did it instead bring forth poison berries (per Hebrew be'ushiym).

5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

God cursed that vineyard that He put Judah in charge over. So who does the vineyard represent, and how does it link to Christ's parable of the vineyard in Matthew 21?


7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
KJV

Right there, as with many Old Testament prophecies, we have a pointer to the ten northern tribes of Israel as that "house of Israel", and then "the men of Judah" as the rulers God setup over it.

Thus the vineyard in Christ's parable of Matthew 21 is about the kingdom that would be given to another "nation", and then would produce the fruits thereof (Matthew 21:43). The kingdom thus represents the vineyard of the "house of Israel" that God planted, and put Judah in charge of until they rebelled against Him, and God had Nebuchadnezzar and the Romans destroy Jerusalem and Judea.

What's the main Message in that then? It is that The Gospel would take hold among the ten lost tribes of Israel as that "vineyard" under another "nation", producing its fruit. Just where might that have originally been? In Asia Minor and Europe, where The Gospel was received by nations after the unbelieving Jews rejected Jesus Christ and had Him crucified.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No sense in conversing with one pushing false Jew doctrines like you.

It's obvious your Jewish brethren have taught you well to come here pushing lies against Christ's Church ALSO KNOWN AS THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL!!!

You seem to have been overcome by a spirit of the age. My interpretation of Ephesians 2 is sound and you have no argument to defeat it. Apparently you seek to "win" the argument through intimidation.

Seek peace my friend.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You disagreed with what I showed you with Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 about the "commonwealth of Israel", and you directly pointed to that to mean THE NATION STATE OF ISRAEL, which is totally ridiculous...

I showed you why your view is mistaken. And now your emotionalism demonstrates uncertainty about your own position. People don't like to be shown error because it makes them uncomfortable and your obvious discomfort is clear evidence that you agree with me, if only tacitly.

Kick back and relax. Take the requisite time to work through the issue and I believe you may arrive at the truth. But beware, you are being tempted to harden yourself against the truth. Don't give in.

Paul fought against the entering into "the commonwealth of Israel"????

Yes, he did.

You don't understand the passage. Paul isn't suggesting that the Ephesians have come near to the commonwealth of Israel; he tells you that the Ephesians, and us also, have come near to "GOD."

Meditate on these verses.

17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yeah, a bunch of JEWISH scholars that also believe the ten tribes of Israel are GONE AND NO MORE, would say such a thing.

Just to show you how uninspired you are, and how out of touch you are, I often get my scholarly input from Bible Hub Commentaries. They are *not* just a "bunch of Jewish scholars!"

Incidentally, are you anti-Semitic in character? I don't mean as in "Nazi," but as in how the early Church Fathers not just marginalized the Jews, but castigated them as a people, offering them little hope in the way of restoration?

Amos 9:9-11
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, "The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us."

11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

That is used by James in reference to the hope of Jewish restoration, following the resurrection of Christ. Acts 15. Israel is restored to join together with non-Jewish nations of faith. Both Israel and other Christian nations will together inherit the Kingdom of Christ. Nothing, however, denotes that Israel consists of anything other than the Jewish People living in the land of Israel.

That is pointing to the TEN LOST TRIBES OF ISRAEL, called the "house of Israel" after the 1 Kings 11 split. Ezekiel 37 also reveals the gathering of the lost ten tribes under the "stick of Ephraim", so how is it those scholars are not aware of those Scriptures???

I assure you that scholars are aware--they just have a different opinion than you. The "house of Israel" is a generic term, and does not always refer, after Israel's division, to the Northern Kingdom. It does indicate the Northern Kingdom at times, during the split, but it does not have to. Context determines the meaning, as always.

So you also gonna' tell me there's no Jewish scholars that AGREE with the future return of the lost ten tribes of Israel?

Partisan scholars will always find a way to make their pet theology fit the facts. But I should think the vast number of Christian scholars in history would agree that the 10 tribes were truly "lost" in history and beyond recovery. They are too mixed in with other nations to ever be distinguished as such again.

The best some of them could do is trace their genealogy or do an extremely good DNA test, and then return to living among the Jewish People. This would not restore their tribe, but it would indicate that all the tribes are mixed in with the Jewish People.