Is heaven only for Christians? - That's convenient

[pandaflower]

romans 11
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

for God is able to graff them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob



i dont believe for a second all of israel will be saved.. i feel its speaking of those who will... say all as in every last one would be universalism .. but then again this is a God thing .. our biggest problem in the land is so many theologies i like how paul wrote it we have thousands of teachers.. but not many fathers in the Lord.

True. Not everyone on earth shall be saved.

However,I see those who hold to the Jews being wholly removed from God's plan as daring something God will ill approve. As those who hold that ideology shall learn at the end of their lives.

 

[Aunty Jane]

True. Not everyone on earth shall be saved.

However,I see those who hold to the Jews being wholly removed from God's plan as daring something God will ill approve. As those who hold that ideology shall learn at the end of their lives.

Have you considered that God’s people whom Paul called “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) were not exclusively Jewish, i.e. this “Israel” were not the fleshly nation of Israel. This ”Israel” was chosen by God to be his people….as John B said….God could “raise up children for Abraham from the stones”. He told those proud Jewish leaders that they shouldn’t think that just because they were the literal offspring of Abraham, that God approved of them. (Matt 3:7-9) He wanted “obedience before sacrifice”….(1 Sam 15:22) which is something the Jews never gave him in any ongoing way. They proved by their breaking their covenant with God, that they were unworthy of their choosing. God chose a new “Israel” to serve the interests of his son’s mission on earth.

Paul describes them this way…..
”But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.” (Rom 2:29)
So you could no longer be one of God’s people by birth…these were now of God’s choosing.

“For we are those with the real circumcision, we who are rendering sacred service by God’s spirit and boasting in Christ Jesus and who do not base our confidence in the flesh”. (Phil 3:3)

Did God’s promise to Abraham fail?
Paul answers….
”However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.”

So literal fleshly Israel are promised nothing because of their continuing disobedience, so as a nation under poor leadership, they lost their place in God’s Kingdom and as prophesied, only a “remnant” of natural Israel would be saved.
As Paul said in quoting from Isaiah…..
“Moreover, Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.” (Rom 9:27)

So a “remnant“ of natural Israel were the first Christians…..and there is nothing to prevent individuals from that nation coming to Christ, but as for a full scale mass conversion….it is not what the Bible says at all.

That is focusing on the wrong “Israel”.

 

[pandaflower]

Have you considered that God’s people whom Paul called “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) were not exclusively Jewish, i.e. this “Israel” were not the fleshly nation of Israel. This ”Israel” was chosen by God to be his people….as John B said….God could “raise up children for Abraham from the stones”. He told those proud Jewish leaders that they shouldn’t think that just because they were the literal offspring of Abraham, that God approved of them. (Matt 3:7-9) He wanted “obedience before sacrifice”….(1 Sam 15:22) which is something the Jews never gave him in any ongoing way. They proved by their breaking their covenant with God, that they were unworthy of their choosing. God chose a new “Israel” to serve the interests of his son’s mission on earth.

Paul describes them this way…..
”But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.” (Rom 2:29)
So you could no longer be one of God’s people by birth…these were now of God’s choosing.
“For we are those with the real circumcision, we who are rendering sacred service by God’s spirit and boasting in Christ Jesus and who do not base our confidence in the flesh”. (Phil 3:3)

Did God’s promise to Abraham fail?
Paul answers….
”However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.”

So literal fleshly Israel are promised nothing because of their continuing disobedience, so as a nation under poor leadership, they lost their place in God’s Kingdom and as prophesied, only a “remnant” of natural Israel would be saved.
As Paul said in quoting from Isaiah…..
“Moreover, Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.” (Rom 9:27)

So a “remnant“ of natural Israel were the first Christians…..and there is nothing to prevent individuals from that nation coming to Christ, but as for a full scale mass conversion….it is not what the Bible says at all.

That is focusing on the wrong “Israel”.

That's a lovely post.

However, I was addressing what was earlier posted and stating quite specifically, "Jesus removed the Kingdom of God from the Jews." .

 

[St. SteVen]

If it were reality in Christ there would be no need for evangelism. And there would be no separation of those not in Christ from God after they did the second death. Because there would be no second death.

That assumes that the only value in a relationship with Christ is in the afterlife.
Do you believe that?

Is Universalism doctrine , and Replacement Theology,allowed to be promoted here?

Yes, Universalism is allowed. As it should be.
It was a prominent belief in the early church.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

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[Deleted member 26788]

This was the "Why only us?" question I had to grapple with as a young adult.

Is it true? Heaven is only for Christians? What does that even mean?

]

as a child ,you were lied to

 

[Aunty Jane]

That's a lovely post.

However, I was addressing what was earlier posted and stating quite specifically, "Jesus removed the Kingdom of God from the Jews." .

He didn’t remove it completely, but blessed the ones who accepted his Christ, in spite of the opposition, which in many cases was intense. (Matt 10:34-36)

Was it the Scripture in Matt 21:42-45….?

”Jesus said to them: “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone. This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling on this stone will be shattered. As for anyone on whom it falls, it will crush him.”

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his illustrations, they knew that he was speaking about them.”

This is a clear statement, but Jesus was talking about the chief priests and Pharisees, those who poisoned the minds of the Jewish people against Jesus and his disciples….but not those individuals from the Jewish nation who did accept Jesus as their savior.

Right from the beginning, the promise God made to Abraham, always included the gentiles…
Gen 22:18…
”And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”

Acts 10:34-35…
”At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.”

God is only interested in loving those who love him….and does what is right…..he gives everyone the opportunity to turn from a bad course and to seek him…..he doesn’t hate anyone, but wants his earth filled with loving and obedient people….this makes it better for everyone, to share this planet with others who also appreciate all that he has made for us to enjoy here in this amazing place….together.

Racial diversity is what humans are all about, and as the Scripture above says….”in every nation the man who fears [God] and does what is right, is acceptable to him”.

Variety is what creation tells us about God…..he loves diversity but not division. He promotes love among all races, not the supremacy of any one race.


Your avatar is very cute BTW….

 

[St. SteVen]

as a child ,you were lied to

I suppose we all were.
Lies and half-truths.

The task, I suppose, is to find the truth in the half-truths.

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[Hiddenthings]

Graffiti on a college building wall.

If only Christians go to Heaven, then I'd rather go to Hell.

What's wrong with this picture?

]

And when people find out that neither are true? What then?

 

[Ezra]

However,I see those who hold to the Jews being wholly removed from God's plan as daring something God will ill approve.

they have not been completely removed thats for sure

 

[St. SteVen]

And when people find out that neither are true? What then?

We'll know, as we are fully known.
The truth isn't a poison, it's the cure.
We'll know the truth, and the truth will set us free.

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[Deleted member 26788]

And when people find out that neither are true? What then?

I don't question that there will only be those ones asked to be there ,they would have to believe Jesus is the Christ. the ones believing in him are called Christians

 

[Hiddenthings]

We'll know, as we are fully known.
The truth isn't a poison, it's the cure.
We'll know the truth, and the truth will set us free.

[

A serious question:

What would become of Christianity if its firmly held tenets of faith were proven to be false?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I don't question that there will only be those ones asked to be there ,they would have to believe Jesus is the Christ. the ones believing in him are called Christians

My point is more about the OP and Stevens assumed knowledge. If it's found to be false, what then?

 

[St. SteVen]

A serious question:

What would become of Christianity if its firmly held tenets of faith were proven to be false?

A very good question. Thanks.

That's the boat I am in.
Although, I can't say anything has been "proven" false.
But I maintain a no-holds-barred challenge to all of it.

After the chaff has been blown away, all you have left to hold on to is what you know is real.
I have to be willing to be left all alone with my convictions. I'll get no support from the "church".

On the other hand, I see some glimmers of hope on this forum.
A few supportive voices that respond to the challenges.

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[Brakelite]

I don't know whether everyone in heaven could be called 'Christians'. But those you may have doubts about as to what to call them, will most assuredly be there because of what Christ has accomplished on their behalf.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

My point is more about the OP and Stevens assumed knowledge. If it's found to be false, what then?

it some what unfortunate that people will believe what ever it is they want to believe ,ok sure. but to then force it on to others . wow there are things that if they would just read the Bible and not try to add their preconceived wants all would be clear to them .

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't question that there will only be those ones asked to be there ,they would have to believe Jesus is the Christ. the ones believing in him are called Christians

This only "Christians" in heaven thing seems like a HUGE hang-up.
Who are the folks (Gentiles, who do not have the law)
in this scripture below, and where will they end up?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

[

 

[Hiddenthings]

A very good question. Thanks.

That's the boat I am in.
Although, I can't say anything has been "proven" false.
But I maintain a no-holds-barred challenge to all of it.

After the chaff has been blown away, all you have left to hold on to is what you know is real.
I have to be willing to be left all alone with my convictions. I'll get no support from the "church".

On the other hand, I see some glimmers of hope on this forum.
A few supportive voices that respond to the challenges.

[

Another question:

Will access to the Kingdom of God on earth be given to those who hold error?

If so, how?

If not, why not?

 

[Deleted member 26788]

This only "Christians" in heaven thing seems like a HUGE hang-up.
Who are the folks (Gentiles, who do not have the law)
in this scripture below, and where will they end up?

what wrong with being alive here on earth ? that by the way is the promise given.

 

[St. SteVen]

Another question:

Will access to the Kingdom of God on earth be given to those who hold error?

If so, how?

If not, why not?

Everyone is in error on some point.
I don't think God cares about that. (within reason)

God will work through whom He chooses. (typically those who feel unworthy)
Whether that makes them part of the kingdom or not, I can't say.
In a sense, anyone who acts under the authority of the kingdom is a part. ???
Whether officially or not.

The disciples questioned Jesus about another group casting out demons in His name.
Do you recall His response?

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