Is Hell worse for Some?
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My comment was About Jesus' Body had nothing to do with Human Seed, Male or Female.
Glory to God,
Taken
Jesus is obviously the result of a union between the seed of the woman and the Holy Ghost.
The hypostatic union is basic doctrine; you should check into it: for departure from it would amount to heresy.
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
Excuse me did I say it was a direct quote, do you see any quote marks. You have heard of "paraphrasing" haven't you?
Here's what I said, "many will awake from the dust of the earth to great shame and age-lasting contempt"
Here's the direct quote,
“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Dan 12:2)
The only real word change we made was substituting the word "age-lasting" for everlasting.
The reason being is that the shame and contempt that many will feel during the the millennial age will not be everlasting, it will either subside as they attempt to make amends for past wrongs and come into compliance with the new order and thus are slowly brought back to that perfection which was lost in father Adam or it will end when having been given every opportunity they still refuse to comply and are adjudged unworthy of life and are sentenced to second death.
It will be everlasting; as evidenced by the plain rendering in the kjv.
You have to change the wording in order to get your interpretation; you have to create a "paraphrase" that departs from the plain rendering of the text.
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
If you choose to go by the direct wording so be it, I myself prefer to go by the whole counsel of the word of God on the matter knowing that the scriptures do not contradict themselves, that God's plan is one complete harmonious whole.
It is evident that you have a very narrow and incomplete view of the Divine Plan.
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Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
In the same Chapter here where Paul speaks of knowing the fear of God, he couples it with the love of Christ in Verse 14, "For the love of Christ constrains us." For example, we see at times such an extreme love between two individuals on earth, that one person actually fears lest he hurt or offend his loved one. He is that concerned. And our love for the Lord should be so great that we would actually fear, we would be anxious, we would be alarmed lest we would displease or offend him.
"Let us therefore fear lest a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." (Heb 4:1)
In this particular text the word fear does not mean reverence-but rather fright or alarm.
A Christian should not have fear in his heart. But on the basis of Heb. 4:1 and 2 Cor. 5:10, that fear should be a watch dog outside the door of the Christian's heart. It would be healthier for us as new creatures to have periods of anxiety as did Jesus and the Apostle Paul concerning our faithfulness. We would re-emphasize that this fear is not to be within our hearts; Paul said that we are not given the spirit of fear. This concern, this alarm is to be a guard outside the door of our hearts, urging us on lest we fall short.
Whatever else fear might be to the immature Christian; to the mature Christian it will be coupled with love--a delicate blending of the fear of God with the love of God.
When the Scripture says;
Lord God Almighty....It is speaking of
Son, Father, Power.
Humans are A CREATED THING.
The Creator (Father), Maker (Son), Power, (HS)....IS ONE God that works Together....
John 1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
A HUMAN male SEED fertilizes a Human female SEED...IN THE FALLOPIAN Tubes of a female......NOT the WOMB!
A Fertilized Seed of a Human Female THEN goes to the WOMB and THERE God FORMS the Human.
Gods SEED DID NOT "FERTALIZE" the seed of Mary, and "MAKE" a HALF/Spirit, HALF/Human...
Gods SEED DOES NOT "FERTALIZE" a Converted Humans SEED, to BIRTH THEM A SPIRIT!
It is utter nonsense and UnBiblical to say, God requires a HUMAN SEED, TO "MAKE" Himself Visible ON Earth "IN THE LIKENESS AS A MAN"...
God Does NOT BECOME A Human.
Men Do not BECOME God.
Men Do not BECOME Spirits.
God IS a Spirit.
Phil 2
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Jesus was revealed ON Earth in the LIKENESS AS A MAN....WITHOUT His Reputation, that He is God WITH US.
His "Reputation" began Being Revealed, Bit by Bit....WHICH IS HIS POWER.
The Almighty IS Gods POWER.
Gods POWER IS Gods Spirit.
Gods POWER IS Called Christ.
Jesus was Revealed AS Jesus (the WORD of God) .later It becomes KNOWN HE is the Christ. (The Power of God).
1 Cor 1 [24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Scripture tells you clearly, flesh and blood nor man(KIND) had anything to do with Jesus' Body.
John 1
[13] Which were born,
Heb 10
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a bodyhast thou prepared me:
Oh good grief, that amounts to a human mans declaration!
I do not deny the WORD of God came to Earth AS A MAN...
I do not deny the WORD of God came to Earth in the Last Days, and was Called Jesus, the Son of God...
And TOOK upon Himself the genealogical LINE of Abraham, AND KNOW HOW AND WHY.
That does NOT "MAKE" the Lord and Power of God a "HUMAN" man.
Of course Jesus exhibited "the same Nature" as Human Men...He established the Human Nature of Human Men.
His MISSION, was to TEACH BY WORD and "EXAMPLE" HOW Human Men COULD BECOME in Gods Likeness and HAVE a Born Again spirit IN Gods LIKENESS.
WHY did men NEED, an EXAMPLE they could see and relate to?
The OT tells you...Because by ONLY hearing the WORD of GOD....MEN were skeptical, WHEN THEY COULD NOT "SEE" God.
And God called THEM "stiffnecked"!
And thus God Promised men, He would SEND them something to SEE...A Messiah from God.
God did not require a FEMALE SEED, to accomplish REVEALING Himself to the WORLD....
Awe, but Men STILL DID NOT BELIEVE...Some nobody guy from some little
Town, that works as a Carpenter....THEIR MESSIAH....pfft!
He didn't Come with Reputation, wealth, fancy clothes, a Royal Title, a kingship....
So they thought!
No. God is NOT a HUMAN MAN.
No. Mary's SEED had nothing to Do with the Lord Jesus' Body being in her Womb.
God IS NOT the Created.
Human men ARE Created.
God IS the Creator!
Jesus IS God in the Flesh likeness as a man.
You should rely more on what the Scripture acutally reveals, then what men declare.
Human is a term that applies to the Created from DUST.
The Lord came OUT from God in Heaven.
John 16 [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Glory to God,
Taken
Gen 3:15, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Rom 1:3, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Isa 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
Agreed. The Christian does not have to fear hell except under the skim chance that he would fall away completely from Christ.
Those who do not believe in Jesus, however, ought to fear hell: for them it would be the beginning of wisdom and knowledge.
Mat 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
And also, for the believer, we consider that Hebrews 12:5-11 gives the source of a healthy fear/terror that amounts to wisdom in Job 28:28.
Heb 12:5, And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7, If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8, But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9, Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10, For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11, Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
What is the nature of hell?
Mar 9:43, And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44, Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45, And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46, Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47, And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48, Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:49, For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
If the worm does not die or perish completely in hell, what makes you think you will?
The fire is not quenched in that place: let the sinner take heed to the warning.
Mar 9:43, And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44, Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45, And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46, Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47, And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48, Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:49, For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
If the worm does not die or perish completely in hell, what makes you think you will?
The fire is not quenched in that place: let the sinner take heed to the warning.
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Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
So now not only have you fallen for the false doctrine of eternal torment as the wages of sin, but likewise the false doctrine that the soul is immortal, two of the nominal church's primary errors.
Now you believe that "worms" are immortal too, Nonsense!, wake up, the Lord was using a metaphor.
If we are to take one part of the Lord's statement as literal (Mark 9:43) then all of it must be literal, and if one part symbolic all of it symbolic.
Did our Lord advocate self-mutilation?
Obviously not he healed men, he restored their hands and feet and eyes. We must conclude that symbolic terms are being used here. The scripture simply and powerfully teaches that it is better for a Christian to cut off and eliminate from his life things as dear to him as a hand, foot, or an eye if such things would prevent him from making his calling and election sure. Such eradication would be better than to fail of his calling and lose his eternal existence in the second death (hell fire, the lake of fire).
For more on this issue see our blog post entitled, Eternal Torment a Great Blasphemy
So? Explain what that verse MEANS.
Explain how THAT verse makes what I said not so.
To be clear I am saying EVE'S "SEED" was NOT involved In Jesus Being revealed on Earth.
If you can not EXPLAIN it, I will.
Explain what you think "MADE" means.
And HOW Jesus was "MADE" of the seed of David, and the MEANING of "according to the flesh".
If you can not EXPLAIN it, I will.
Who is SPEAKING?
How is He speaking?
Who is the "Holy One of Israel"?
Who is "His" Maker?
Glory to God,
Taken
The Lord was not using symbolism here but a different literary tactic, hyperbole...exaggeration to make a point.
He was saying by the passage in question that hell is not to be trifled with; and that sin, which puts people in hell, is to be dealt with in a very severe manner.
I can explain it; but I think I will do the thing that I normally do and let you go first.
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
NO... that's not what he was saying at all, you're just vainly trying to force your eternal torment theory into the narrative to give your false theory support, but its not working, at least not to any true thinking Christian.
I think you need to follow Sister Charity's suggestion and do a through Exhaustive Topical Examination on the word "hell" as you are completely off base here.
~ justbyfaith ~
Thee LORD GOD speaking TO the Serpent.
Thee LORD GOD saying He will PUT Hostility BETWEEN the Serpents seed and the woman's seed.
What shall bruise the Serpents head?
Hostility of the woman.
What shall bruise His Heel? The Serpent.
Who is "His"... He that is Between the seed of the woman and the serpent.
Who is that? Jesus.
And Jesus Between the seed of the Serpent and the seed of the woman shall cause hostility of the woman toward the serpent.
It says NOTHING about the womans seed being used to reveal the Lord Jesus.
The woman's seed was protected from satan corrupting her seed.
Remember when fallen angels mated with women?
Remember Jesus had to come forth out of a Virgin womb.
Jesus was BETWEEN the serpents seed and the woman's seed...
The Serpent could NOT corrupt...her Virgin womb.
However the seed of the serpent DID corrupt men, and they DID beat and bruise Jesus.
Creation is One thing ~ Gods Idea of what does not Exist and with His Power and Word speaks the thing into Existence.
To MAKE, is taking something that EXISTS, and causing a CHANGE in it.
Once the Change is accomplished, then the Thing is then MADE changed.
Just like you do not "Create" a cake. You MAKE a cake. You use ingredients Already CREATED to MAKE a cake.
God created man, from a "CREATED" earth, then MADE man a living soul.
The Lord Jesus has ALWAYS existed.
For Him to Appear in the Likeness as a man He had to receive a Body (prepared of God), that LOOKED in the Likeness as a man.
The whole purpose was so MEN COULD SEE the Lord God, without SEEING the Lord God AS 'HE' is.
Who is SPEAKING? The LORD God.
How is He speaking? With His Power and His Word.
Who is the "Holy One of Israel"? The LORD God.
Who is "His" Maker? The Lord Jesus.
Who is the WORD? Jesus
Who is the POWER? Christ
Who is the MAKER of ALL things? the WORD.
None of these verses speak to or against what I said.
Mary's seed had NOTHING to do with Jesus being in Mary's Womb.
Glory to God,
Taken
Thee LORD GOD speaking TO the Serpent.
Thee LORD GOD saying He will PUT Hostility BETWEEN the Serpents seed and the woman's seed.
What shall bruise the Serpents head?
Hostility of the woman.
What shall bruise His Heel? The Serpent.
Who is "His"... He that is Between the seed of the woman and the serpent.
Who is that? Jesus.
And Jesus Between the seed of the Serpent and the seed of the woman shall cause hostility of the woman toward the serpent.
It says NOTHING about the womans seed being used to reveal the Lord Jesus.
The woman's seed was protected from satan corrupting her seed.
Remember when fallen angels mated with women?
Remember Jesus had to come forth out of a Virgin womb.
Jesus was BETWEEN the serpents seed and the woman's seed...
The Serpent could NOT corrupt...her Virgin womb.
However the seed of the serpent DID corrupt men, and they DID beat and bruise Jesus.
Creation is One thing ~ Gods Idea of what does not Exist and with His Power and Word speaks the thing into Existence.
To MAKE, is taking something that EXISTS, and causing a CHANGE in it.
Once the Change is accomplished, then the Thing is then MADE changed.
Just like you do not "Create" a cake. You MAKE a cake. You use ingredients Already CREATED to MAKE a cake.
God created man, from a "CREATED" earth, then MADE man a living soul.
The Lord Jesus has ALWAYS existed.
For Him to Appear in the Likeness as a man He had to receive a Body (prepared of God), that LOOKED in the Likeness as a man.
The whole purpose was so MEN COULD SEE the Lord God, without SEEING the Lord God AS 'HE' is.
Who is SPEAKING? The LORD God.
How is He speaking? With His Power and His Word.
Who is the "Holy One of Israel"? The LORD God.
Who is "His" Maker? The Lord Jesus.
Who is the WORD? Jesus
Who is the POWER? Christ
Who is the MAKER of ALL things? the WORD.
None of these verses speak to or against what I said.
Mary's seed had NOTHING to do with Jesus being in Mary's Womb.
Glory to God,
Taken
@Taken,
point #1, Jehovah/Jesus has a Maker.
I won't disagree with your definition of this. In making the human part of Jesus, the Father took something that already existed...the seed of the woman...and made something out of it.
It should be clear that Jesus is the seed of the woman. The Holy Ghost became one with the egg in the FALLOPIAN TUBES (thank you for that correction) of Mary. The hypostatic union is basic doctrine 101, and it teaches us that Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God, through the union that took place between Spirit and egg in the virgin conception.
You can disagree if you want; in fact, I expect you to disagree. You will not change your pov unless you get a different Spirit from the one you have now....see 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7.
point #1, Jehovah/Jesus has a Maker.
I won't disagree with your definition of this. In making the human part of Jesus, the Father took something that already existed...the seed of the woman...and made something out of it.
It should be clear that Jesus is the seed of the woman. The Holy Ghost became one with the egg in the FALLOPIAN TUBES (thank you for that correction) of Mary. The hypostatic union is basic doctrine 101, and it teaches us that Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God, through the union that took place between Spirit and egg in the virgin conception.
You can disagree if you want; in fact, I expect you to disagree. You will not change your pov unless you get a different Spirit from the one you have now....see 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
His body is part of him. Believing that Jesus was trapped in or even simply wearing a body of flesh like clothing is Gnostic not Christian doctrine.
The concept of hell is not exhaustively covered by a word search on the word hell and/or words that refer to hell, such as Gehenna.
There are verses (such as Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46, and Revelation 20:10) that speak on the subject apart from using the actual word or words that refer to the place being spoken of.
I am not trying to force any belief into my reading of scripture.
As a matter of fact, I am with you...I would much rather that hell not be a place of everlasting torments.
But the holy scriptures teach us that it is.
And as such, I would be neglecting my duty as a minister to not warn the people within my sphere of influence of the reality of the matter...that it is a place of everlasting torments and that therefore the only sane decision is to do whatever it takes to avoid it.
Since the solution is so simple...simply receiving Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, calling upon His name for salvation...anyone would have to be a fool to reject the free gift that the Lord is offering to all men at this time in history.
This free gift amounts to expiation from the wrath and judgment of a holy God.
Jesus dying on the Cross, took the penalty for your sins. God's wrath and judgment fell upon Christ over the sins that you have committed; and God's favour falls on you over the perfect life and righteousness of Christ. It is called the divine exchange or propitiation.
However, certain other doctrines taught to you by the JW's may keep you from receiving this simple good news. Unfortunately, it will be to your demise.
I suggest finding a mainstream Bible-teaching church and sitting under its teaching for an extended period of time. Perhaps then you will be transformed by the renewing of your mind and come to the knowledge of the truth.
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