Is homosexuality something God can redeem?

[singoverme]

Check out Dennis Jernigan's story

Came across this and was so excited by his personal testimony. I have many friends that struggle with same-sex attraction and this gives me something tangible with which to proclaim, "There is hope and freedom through Christ!!"

Intrigued and want to learn more? Check out "SING OVER ME, The Dennis Jernigan Documentary" on Facebook or @SINGOVERMEMOVIE on Twitter.

Thanks, and I look forward to reading your thoughts/comments RE homosexuality and the Church

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Some say NO, based upon Romans 1FF. However, whilst God cannot redeem homosexuality, he is certainly capable of redeeming said individual from homosexuality, should he choose.

 

[Axehead]

Some say NO, based upon Romans 1FF. However, whilst God cannot redeem homosexuality, he is certainly capable of redeeming said individual from homosexuality, should he choose.

Amen, should the one who is a slave to sin, choose to be delivered by the hand of Jesus Christ, by faith, Jesus Christ will respond. Many have the testimony of turning from their sins and turning towards Christ.

Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God has always responded to faith. He responds to men reaching out to Him by faith for deliverance.

 

[Foreigner]

"Is homosexuality something God can redeem?"

-- Of course. Otherwise, He wouldn't be God.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

This subject is overthought, when in reality, it is actually pretty simple:

A homosexual act is a sin, and a homsoexual lifestyle is a sinful one.

A sin can be forgiven, a homosexual lifestyle which does not cease cannot.


It is no different then the conceptual difference between a person who steals something and a person who is a perpetual thief, except homosexuality, as with all sexual immoralities, are graver in nature. The Bible has a lot to say about sex precisely because of this.

 

[williemac]

I marvel that we look at this sin as though it is so special. We all have some measure of sin in our being, whether some may care to admit it or not. Jesus said that all sin would be forgiven. He died for the homosexual, too. But what is most disturbing to me is the doctrine of works/salvation. How have we come to the idea that sin can only be forgiven if it is something that the person has to stop doing? Is forgiveness fickle? 1John 2:1, says otherwise.It is based on a sacrifice that was made and justice being served on our behalf.
There is a lifelong process of change in every believer once he comes to Jesus. There are certain things that we can easily leave behind us, and some things in some people that are strongholds in their life. I know those who struggled for years with smoking, and then one day they just woke up and the desire was gone. It didn't happen overnight.

There are those who have no idea what is causing the perverted desires within them and have no idea how to stop them. But Paul gave a commentary on his mindset in Rom.7 about this kind of thing. What was important is that he hated his sin and agreed with the law. Therefore, as he put it, it is no longer I who sin, but sin in me....therefore, there is no condemnation. Walking in the spirit is a mindset. What the homosexual requires is the agreement with God that it is wrong and sinful. If he couild quit, then he would not have needed forgiveness. The same goes for the rest of us.

Just because we cannot relate to a person's struggle, what gives us the lisence to condemn him? I suggest one takes a look at Luke 18:10-14. Everything is to be looked at on an indivdual basis. God can do this better than we can.

 

[7angels]

williemac
well said. few seem to understand that concept.

homosexuals are in willful sin. the reason it is so hard for anyone living in willful sin to follow the Lord is because God wants all of us and not just a portion of our hearts. the word teaches that where our treasure is so will our heart be. people in willful sin know they are sinning and yet refuse to change. willful sin is not just a homosexual but could be anything that we know is wrong and we refuse to quit. pornography, lying, cussing, stealing, and ect are all willful sin as long as it is something you keep doing over and over again and you are not trying to stop. even video games or tv or anything else can be willful sin depending upon what value we place upon them. God is to be first within our lives and will not take a backseat to anything else.

let me ask you how much time in your day do you spend with God? i challenge you to just keep track of everything you do during a day to see how much time you spend with God. is it more then 10%? is it 20%? or is it more then 20%? most people are surprised with the outcome.

God bless

 

[pompadour]

With GOD all things are possible...There is only one sin that is unforgivable. That is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Pomp.

 

[Axehead]

God does not redeem lifestyles, He redeems people, sinful people, all kinds of people...with all kinds of sins. And He then brings them into conformity to His character (by the Holy Spirit) as demonstrated in Jesus Christ.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

The problem with homosexuality which makes it graver in nature then other sins is because their is natural law in Abrahamic religion. Homosexuality is completely against natural law altogether. Natural law is an extremely important thing to follow because it is the basic template of life in general. How does one expect to be in sync with God if you don't even follow the primary natural order He established? This order goes all the way back to Adam and Eve. Those who disrupt this order are shown no mercy in the Bible. They are stoned to death, their cities are destoryed, and so on. They are painted as being the exact opposite of what God desires.

There's simply just no parallel between the homosexual lifestyle and the Godly lifestyle.

 

[williemac]

williemac
well said. few seem to understand that concept.

homosexuals are in willful sin. the reason it is so hard for anyone living in willful sin to follow the Lord is because God wants all of us and not just a portion of our hearts. the word teaches that where our treasure is so will our heart be. people in willful sin know they are sinning and yet refuse to change. willful sin is not just a homosexual but could be anything that we know is wrong and we refuse to quit. pornography, lying, cussing, stealing, and ect are all willful sin as long as it is something you keep doing over and over again and you are not trying to stop. even video games or tv or anything else can be willful sin depending upon what value we place upon them. God is to be first within our lives and will not take a backseat to anything else.

let me ask you how much time in your day do you spend with God? i challenge you to just keep track of everything you do during a day to see how much time you spend with God. is it more then 10%? is it 20%? or is it more then 20%? most people are surprised with the outcome.

God bless

Thank you for that challange. Don't know what it has to do with this subject, though. I have a question. Where does the bible tell us what willful sin actually is? You might be surprised with the outcome of this inquiry.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi williemac,

How have we come to the idea that sin can only be forgiven if it is something that the person has to stop doing?

The very definition of a sin is that it is something that separates a person from God, or removes him from fellowship with God.

The issue is nothing to do with forgiveness, but about understanding what God Himself means by REPENTANCE; and by repenting with such a whole-hearted, single-minded desire to be freed from the power of 'the sin' (Romans 5:12) that we receive our petitiion from the Lord when we truly repent. Yes, there may be many other moments of repentance subsequent to this one, but the principle desire to be freed from sin is satisfied by an experience of real repentance. This may not be the first encounter a person has with repentance, but it is a vital milestone in gaining victory over sin.

We then KNOW we have made an eternal choice, because He gives us this knowledge in response to our repentance, and we know He will help us to make good these desires in our three-dimensional lives. This concept was first taught by the apostles. Our intention becomes the mortification the flesh - the ceasing from sins - which war against the Spirit.

Anyone who has consciously identified with Christ's death, wherein the power of sin was broken, knows they can have victory over any sin which attracts them. The power of Christ's resurrection life (through the Holy Spirit) enables the person whose eyes are fixed on Christ, to keep themselves in the love of God, abiding in the true Vine, bearing fruit unto God. If they are doing all that, then they are not serving sin.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

There is nothing in the teachings of Christ which remotely imply it's impossible to cease from sin. That teaching comes from man; from men/women who would rather look at themselves than Christ; who would rather do what they want instead of what God wants, and who justify indulging themselves despite - or in defiance of - the power of the cross.

 

[williemac]

Hi williemac,


The very definition of a sin is that it is something that separates a person from God, or removes him from fellowship with God.

That is nowhere near the definition of sin. And for the record, it does not seperate anyone from God from His perspective. He has always been in contact with, conversation with, and interactive with, sinners. It is the sinner who hides from God, not the other way around. God seeks out the sinner, pursues the sinner, loves the sinner.

Hi williemac,


T

The issue is nothing to do with forgiveness, but about understanding what God Himself means by REPENTANCE; and by repenting with such a whole-hearted, single-minded desire to be freed from the power of 'the sin' (Romans 5:12) that we receive our petitiion from the Lord when we truly repent. Yes, there may be many other moments of repentance subsequent to this one, but the principle desire to be freed from sin is satisfied by an experience of real repentance. This may not be the first encounter a person has with repentance, but it is a vital milestone in gaining victory over sin.

Secondly, there is no reference in scripture that teaches repentance from sin as a requirement for salvation. Notice I said repentance from sin. The word repentance comes from two Greek terms, namely "meta" (change) and "noya" (mind). Whenever the word repent is used, it is not automatic that is in reference to sin, unless the context says so. One can repent from any number of theings such as pride, rebellion, unbelief, etc. The word repent does not mean to quit sinning. But don't take my word for that. Check it out for yourself.

We then KNOW we have made an eternal choice, because He gives us this knowledge in response to our repentance, and we know He will help us to make good these desires in our three-dimensional lives. This concept was first taught by the apostles. Our intention becomes the mortification the flesh - the ceasing from sins - which war against the Spirit.

Anyone who has consciously identified with Christ's death, wherein the power of sin was broken, knows they can have victory over any sin which attracts them. The power of Christ's resurrection life (through the Holy Spirit) enables the person whose eyes are fixed on Christ, to keep themselves in the love of God, abiding in the true Vine, bearing fruit unto God. If they are doing all that, then they are not serving sin.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

There is nothing in the teachings of Christ which remotely imply it's impossible to cease from sin. That teaching comes from man; from men/women who would rather look at themselves than Christ; who would rather do what they want instead of what God wants, and who justify indulging themselves despite - or in defiance of - the power of the cross.

Whether this is true or not is not the point. I have no argument with the possibility that sin can be overcome in a believer's life. But this is not a black and white subject. For some, sin can be overcome in an instant. For others, it may take a lifetime. As well, there may be cases where many sins have been overcome in a person's life but they still have one or two areas where they struggle.

The reality is that God is well aware of our humanity and the varying issues and strongholds that beset His chidren. He is not surprised by these. He had a solution. The cross. This gave us forgiveness. It is a starting point in our new life with Him. But is is not fickle or conditional to our own ability. We have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). Some are stronger than others. Some are weaker than others. Does He break a bended reed? Does He snuff out a smouldering wick? No. He has compassion; something many fellow brothers are shy of.

There is a prevailing focus in the church on the sin issue, as though this is still something that is an issue between man and God for salvation sake. I have news for those people who think this: WRONG! I quoted from Rom.7 for a reason. It is there for our information. With the proper mindset, we can be in a position of no condemnation IN SPITE OF ANY SIN THAT MAY BE PRESENT IN OUR LIVES. This goes for the homosexual as well. Does anyone think for a moment that these gays who come to the Lord for forgiveness would refuse His work in their heart to take away their homosexual desires? Think of the struggle each one was facing when these desires reared their ugly head in their lives in the first place.

They were faced with the very thing that the law was given to show us....WE CANNOT CHANGE OURSELVES. Some stay in the closet, ashamed and afraid of their dilema. Others give in and give up. These poor people have suffered a horrible and tragic heart wrenching mental anguish over that which they could not control. And then what do they get from Christianity? Condemnation rather than compassion and forgiveness.

You know waht happens next? They find friends who accept them, take them in, and comfort them and support them. And when they have a choice to make as to who they will align their lives with, its no wonder they march in gay pride parades.

And to top this off, the few that come to the Lord do so at a great risk of being shunned, ridiculed, condemned, and rejected. Sure there are victories in many lives. With God all things are possible. He can take the desires away under the right conditions, and even under impossible conditions. But this does not always happen. In many cases the struggles persist and the damage is deep and devistating. Does God blame and condemn His children for their struggles? Or does He offer grace?

I have a piece of advice for many who may be reading this. In no way, shape, or form, can you climb into the minds or hearts of another man or woman and even come close to knowing what he or she may be going through or thinking...or what kind of shame and pain is holding on to their hearts. The best we can do is to come along side and be a friend, as Jesus was the friend of sinners. Because one thing that is sure; healing will not happen outside of love and acceptance.

This is precisely why the gospel assures us that forgiveness is real and sincere. It is not fickle. Jesus solved the things that He encountered while on earth. The covenant of grace did not begin until after His death and resurrection. However, it is a beginning, not an end. There will be a resurrection for all believers; a day when we will all be changed. So here's the deal; If there is a further change coming, then maybe we should show a little patience, because in the case of every last one of us.. further change is needed.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi williemac,

Many thanks for your post.

That is nowhere near the definition of sin.

Well, really I was referring to the spiritual principle which entered the world through Adam: the sin.

And for the record, it does not seperate anyone from God from His perspective. He has always been in contact with, conversation with, and interactive with, sinners. It is the sinner who hides from God, not the other way around. God seeks out the sinner, pursues the sinner, loves the sinner.

All this is true, but God does so with the sole intention of calling the man to repentance so that he will have a change of attitude towards his relationship with 'the sin'. The offer made to Moses on Sinai was different from the offer made by Christ.

Secondly, there is no reference in scripture that teaches repentance from sin as a requirement for salvation. Notice I said repentance from sin. The word repentance comes from two Greek terms, namely "meta" (change) and "noya" (mind). Whenever the word repent is used, it is not automatic that is in reference to sin, unless the context says so. One can repent from any number of theings such as pride, rebellion, unbelief, etc. The word repent does not mean to quit sinning. But don't take my word for that. Check it out for yourself.

Yes, I realise that one can repent of issues other than sin, but Christ came to deal with our sin primarily. Otherwise, why did God send John the Baptist preaching repentance for the remission of sins, if they could be saved without it?

And why did Jesus preach repentance from sin, as a precursor to announcing that the kingdom of heaven was at hand, saying that unless a man was born again he couldn't even see the kingdom of God, and could not enter it either?

Why did God command a sacrificial system for the covering of sins through the Old Covenant, if sins did not make any difference to His relationship with Israel? Why did He continually call them away from idolatry?

Why is the whole book of Hebrews devoted to explaining the role of the High Priest of the New Covenant, if sin matters not? Why go to all the trouble of comparing Christ's priesthood with Aaron's or Melchizedek's?

I have no argument with the possibility that sin can be overcome in a believer's life.... For some, sin can be overcome in an instant. For others, it may take a lifetime. As well, there may be cases where many sins have been overcome in a person's life but they still have one or two areas where they struggle.

Acknowledged.

But this is not a black and white subject.

I think it's more black and white than you do, and that's because Paul talks about circumcision of the heart as an event which happens with the same swiftness and permanent effect as circumcision in the flesh would have on the flesh. There is no ongoing circumcision. Once it's happened, it's happened.

I believe true repentance has a part to play in that, as well as making a decision to trust in Christ Jesus for salvation. And much much more than that, I believe Christ broke the power of sin totally, when He died.


The rest of your post I read with interest. I started this post, replying as I was reading, but I don't have time to finish all that I would like to say to your next comments, so will return to this at a later date - maybe today.... not sure.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

But what is most disturbing to me is the doctrine of works/salvation. How have we come to the idea that sin can only be forgiven if it is something that the person has to stop doing? .

What's disturbing is the notion that God sends people to Hell for not believing in Christ rather then for being wicked.
I find that to be destestable, and bad theology. There is no grace in that, it is the exact opposite- it is malevolent and ridiculous. Further, it collapses on itself. If forgiveness is unconditional, you shouldn't have to ask for it or believe neither.


Protestant love to sit there and harp on about what's 'disturbing' about salvation by works, but there is a bit of irony to go with that- it's not disturbing.

It is what a good God wills. I don't know what spell other Christians are under or were under to present such an idea that Hell is for the unbeliever, but it's definitely not from the Abrahamic God. It doesn't matter what sort of cherry picking one wants to do with Scripture, it's false and really should be the theology protested and demonstrated against.

 

[williemac]

What's disturbing is the notion that God sends people to Hell for not believing in Christ rather then for being wicked.
I find that to be destestable, and bad theology. There is no grace in that, it is the exact opposite- it is malevolent and ridiculous. Further, it collapses on itself. If forgiveness is unconditional, you shouldn't have to ask for it or believe neither.


Protestant love to sit there and harp on about what's 'disturbing' about salvation by works, but there is a bit of irony to go with that- it's not disturbing.

It is what a good God wills. I don't know what spell other Christians are under or were under to present such an idea that Hell is for the unbeliever, but it's definitely not from the Abrahamic God. It doesn't matter what sort of cherry picking one wants to do with Scripture, it's false and really should be the theology protested and demonstrated against.

What spell, you ask? Speaking of spells, here is a quote from Paul to the Galatians: (3:1-10)
3:1" O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
Futhermore, Here is a quote from John 3:36..." He who believes in the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him".

If you merely are here to tell us what your opinion is about how things ought to be, then you are wasting your time. This is a bible based website to the best of my experience. But I will say that I have a history here and elswhere of defending the concept of eternal death at the final judgment rather than eternal conscious torment. The hell that is translated from "hades" is temporary.

Blessings, Howie

 

[SilenceInMotion]

What spell, you ask? Speaking of spells, here is a quote from Paul to the Galatians: (3:1-10)
3:1" O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
Futhermore, Here is a quote from John 3:36..." He who believes in the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him".

If you merely are here to tell us what your opinion is about how things ought to be, then you are wasting your time. This is a bible based website to the best of my experience. But I will say that I have a history here and elswhere of defending the concept of eternal death at the final judgment rather than eternal conscious torment. The hell that is translated from "hades" is temporary.

Blessings, Howie

Why don't you read John 3:36 again, where it says 'believe Jesus', not in Jesus. One also has to be mindful about who and what the apostles and Jesus are speaking of when they speak it.

Hell is a place for the wicked, it is not a place for people who are not Christians, and it is not merely a place of death. It is a place of punishment for the wicked.
Any other way contradicts the entirety of any notion that God is good. The Catholic Church recognizes that atheists can be saved, the reason Protestants do not is because it conflicts with their doctrines. They rather see it fit that all they live in paradise while all their loved ones who never became Christian are burning in fiery torment.
What kind of black heart it takes to actually concur with that, I don't know. A Protestant can either sit their stubbornly with their legal fictions, or they can just accept the fact that Luther lived in a time where not being a Christian was virtually unheard of and never thought to think there could actually be room for a good atheist.

Instead of denying Hell, you should just accept the doctrine of Purgatory. God forgave Adam, but he still had to live by the sweat of his brow. This is because God requires satisfaction, and you cannot stand next to the throne in due sin. You pay for them in Purgatory, and good atheists simply spend a greater time in it for their lesser repentances.

That is the true face of Jesus dying on the cross. Sacrifice doesn't require belief, it requires satisfaction. You do as the New Covenant demands, or you become subject to judgement. That's it in a nutshell. Christianity circa 33AD

 

[williemac]

Why don't you read John 3:36 again, where it says 'believe Jesus', not in Jesus. One also has to be mindful about who and what the apostles and Jesus are speaking of when they speak it.

Thank you for your reply. I will start with this statement. The latter part of the verse says believe Jesus. The first part says believe "in" the Son. This is John's recap of the content, which included 3:16 ( remember this one? ) ....."that whoever believes IN Him shall not perish but have everlsting life" I advise you not be so narrow in your use of scripture, but consider the whole dynamic of what the gospel is communicating. I'll be back later.

Why don't you read John 3:36 again, where it says 'believe Jesus', not in Jesus. One also has to be mindful about who and what the apostles and Jesus are speaking of when they speak it.

Hell is a place for the wicked, it is not a place for people who are not Christians, and it is not merely a place of death. It is a place of punishment for the wicked.
Any other way contradicts the entirety of any notion that God is good. The Catholic Church recognizes that atheists can be saved, the reason Protestants do not is because it conflicts with their doctrines. They rather see it fit that all they live in paradise while all their loved ones who never became Christian are burning in fiery torment.
What kind of black heart it takes to actually concur with that, I don't know. A Protestant can either sit their stubbornly with their legal fictions, or they can just accept the fact that Luther lived in a time where not being a Christian was virtually unheard of and never thought to think there could actually be room for a good atheist.

Instead of denying Hell, you should just accept the doctrine of Purgatory. God forgave Adam, but he still had to live by the sweat of his brow. This is because God requires satisfaction, and you cannot stand next to the throne in due sin. You pay for them in Purgatory, and good atheists simply spend a greater time in it for their lesser repentances.

That is the true face of Jesus dying on the cross. Sacrifice doesn't require belief, it requires satisfaction. You do as the New Covenant demands, or you become subject to judgement. That's it in a nutshell. Christianity circa 33AD

I don't disagree that hades is a place for the wicked. However, the bible is very clear that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. Therefore, all are disqualified for life on that basis. However, this is a clear advantage for mankind. It allows man to be man and God to be God. Let us be clear on this one fact. We are not God(s). We cannot do what God can do and cannot produce what onoy God can produce: Two things; righteousness and life. You use the word "good" as though this is some kind of standard that is acceptable. But Good is not good enouigh. God will not allow imperfect beings to exist in His domain. The reason is simple. It inevitably puts innocent people in harm's way. No, the only acceptable standard for His knigndom is moral perfection (righteousness). This is a bar that is too high for man to jump. therefore it must be attained through God's giving of it rather than through man's effort to live up to it.

Here is where we need to clarify just what the whole issue really is. It is not whether a man can live up to any kind of standard. It is whether a man will allow His place and purpose to be just what is was created to be, and accept it. Furthermore, this also includes that he accepts God's place and role. You have put this into a man's perspective by using words such as "christian" and "atheist".

In God's perspective, these labels mean nothing. What He is looking for is humility. What He demands is humility. What He responds to is humility (God gives grace to the humble, resits the proud). He will not justify anyone who feels or thinks that he has earned justification through his own resources or efforts. Rather, God has done the counter intuitive from man's perspective. He has paved the way, through the death of His Son, for life to be given and granted as a free gift.

God is the source of life. Anyone who tries to have any input from within his own resources to attain life undermines that truth. The very first offense that occured was that of Lucifer's decision to be like God, or to be God. The attempt to take the credit for attaining life through one's own goodness, does exaclty the same thing. It places a person in God's role: Giver of life. Source of goodness.

You see, what God knows is that there can only be ONE GOD.
Faith is merely a by product of a humble acceptance of a free gift. It will take humility to accept charity on this level. This is what it means to beleive in Jesus. It simply means that one accepts the sacrifice that Jesus made on our behalf. It is about accepting His role as Savior. You have a problem with that? I hope not. Can a non believer be saved? Maybe. God gives grace to the humble. If one has not heard the gospel but in his heart acknowledges his deficiency, and humbly realizes his need for mercy, then why wouldn't he qualify? It is still the sacrifice of Jesus that will save him, even if he has not heard of it. Certainly possible, I suppose.

However, you have entered the forbidden arena by making it about a human being's goodness. That is not a humble place whatsoever.
But I can see from your post that you are not here with any kind of friendship with the bible. God help you. Your quarrel is with something that you do not understand. Your argument is with uniformed christians who have not related the truth to you properly.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Thank you for your reply. I will start with this statement. The latter
part of the verse says believe Jesus. The first part says believe "in" the Son. This is John's recap of the content, which included 3:16 ( remember this one? ) ....."that whoever believes IN
Him shall not perish but have everlsting life" I advise you not be so
narrow in your use of scripture, but consider the whole dynamic of what
the gospel is communicating. I'll be back later.

If you look closely at the contexts of the verse, it is not saying that only those that believe in him will have etenal life, only those who do not heed the teachings of Christ will have life. Those who have faith in Christ are secured, as real faith induces works.

Most older translations of John 3:36 translate the word as 'on' rather then 'in'. Another angle of the message is that those who follow Christ's commands and put it into the faith of the Lord are greater.

During the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus does not state one time that belief of his Diety is necessary for salvation. In fact, he states exactly as I have stated: the meek, merciful, poor, pure in heart, peacemakers- those who persecute them on the account of his good- they are saved.

In reality, there is no real issuance in the Bible that one cannot be saved without belief in Diety, except where it is stated that blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Jesus even stated that those who blaspheme against him can be forgiven.

When Jesus states that you must beleive I am he, he is talking to those who would otherwise follow the Old Law. If they didn't believe he was the Son, they would have no reason to follow what he says, lest they feel they are actually going against God. So it was indeed necessary for them to believe.

This is what justice is in the Bible:

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his
Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has
done.

Justice is not based on either belief or disbelief, it is based on whether you are good or wicked. If Jesus died on the cross, then it doesn't matter if we fall short of the glory of God. Getting dunked in water or having faith does not make you any better. What makes you better is working to improve yourself, to be charitable and humble, and so on.

 

[williemac]

If you look closely at the contexts of the verse, it is not saying that only those that believe in him will have etenal life, only those who do not heed the teachings of Christ will have life. Those who have faith in Christ are secured, as real faith induces works.

Most older translations of John 3:36 translate the word as 'on' rather then 'in'. Another angle of the message is that those who follow Christ's commands and put it into the faith of the Lord are greater.

During the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus does not state one time that belief of his Diety is necessary for salvation. In fact, he states exactly as I have stated: the meek, merciful, poor, pure in heart, peacemakers- those who persecute them on the account of his good- they are saved.

In reality, there is no real issuance in the Bible that one cannot be saved without belief in Diety, except where it is stated that blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Jesus even stated that those who blaspheme against him can be forgiven.

When Jesus states that you must beleive I am he, he is talking to those who would otherwise follow the Old Law. If they didn't believe he was the Son, they would have no reason to follow what he says, lest they feel they are actually going against God. So it was indeed necessary for them to believe.

This is what justice is in the Bible:

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his
Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has
done.

Justice is not based on either belief or disbelief, it is based on whether you are good or wicked. If Jesus died on the cross, then it doesn't matter if we fall short of the glory of God. Getting dunked in water or having faith does not make you any better. What makes you better is working to improve yourself, to be charitable and humble, and so on.

This is a common mistake. In the first place, if you wish to quote Jesus, then go to John 6:50, 51, and read it. Then come back and tell me that this is about being basically a good person. As well, go to John 6:47. I will quote it. The words of Jesus..." Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life" But He does not leave it there. He explains it by referring to His body and blood, that those who partake of them will not die, but live forever. These kinds of things are repeated over and over in that chapter. Read vs.53-59. The body and blood of Jesus will not automatically apply to just anyome who happens to be good. As I said, their goodness will not save them if they are self righteous. The words of Jesus in Luke18:10-14 make this abundantly clear.

Jesus spared no words in exhorting good behavior. But He did not stop there. He gave standards that no man can live up to. There is a reason for that. As Paul explained, the law was given to show man that his nature cannot produce the kind of righteousness that is acceptable to God. Therefore when Jesus arrived, they had not heard the truth about man's inability to be good enough. So He put everyon in their place. But He also told them that eternal life is not a matter of being good. It is a matter of accepting His mercy in humility, as Luke 18:10-14 reveals in His own words.

Finally, Paul made a statement in Rom.10:9,10. Are you going to tell me that this is false? A lie?

I suggest if you are going to quote Math.16:27, then read the context. The bible speaks of two judgment seats. The first one is that of Christ Himself. He will reward His own for the things done in this life. But there is another judgment seat at the end of the 1000 yr reign of Christ. These on this judgment will be cast into the lake of fire in what is called the second death. But there are other places in the bible that tell us who will be at the first judgment and who will be at the last one. I assure you, that criteria is not about man's goodness. The bible says otherwise. But I can see you do not accept much of its writings. You merely quote from part of it in order to validate self righteousness and self justification. . This is a folly. Math.16: 25.." For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it". Do you think He is telling any man to save his own life?