Is homosexuality something God can redeem?

[SilenceInMotion]

This whole precept is based on an assumption of the meaning of a passage. Jesus said to Peter. that his revelation of who Jesus is came from God and not man. Then He said on this rock I will build My church. Just because He called Peter a rock, are we to believe that He was telling us that He was building an organization on Peter????

Or was He referring to building His church on the foundation (rock) of Himself and the revelation of who He is? Sounds more like it! From one passage, there would be no outright proof of either to build a doctrine on. But the real sad fact here is that in the first place, the true church is not even an organization. It is rather all the people that make up what is called the body of Christ. And we know from other scripture that Jesus is the chief cornerstone, as confirmed by Paul (Eph.4:11), and Peter (1Pet.2:7), and Jesus (Math.21:42, Mrk12:10), and Luke (Acts 4:11). Jesus Himself is also called a Rock (1Cor.10:4, Rom.9:33) by Paul and by Peter (1Pet.2:8).

The evidence is overwhelming and even completely logical that the rock that the church is built on is none other than Jesus Himself, and not a mere man. The wording.."on this rock" does not even make sense if He was referring to Peter while talking to Peter. He would have said "on you". How stupid. How pathetic that men would hold men on a pedistle, praying to dead people, worshipping a woman, and making a man their head rather than Christ, who is actually even called the Head of the church. (Eph.5:23)

This is why there is a protestant church of people. It finally ocurred to someone that the Catholics were off their "rock"er. :blink:

Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter. Do you know what the name Peter means?

*drumroll*

ROCK.

Derived from the word 'petrus'.

Furthermore, if you look at the verses below and above Matthew 16:18, you will see that God is blessing Peter, and giving him the apostolic power of the Keys. In Acts 2, you see a rather dramatic display of Peter exercising this power.

Protestants lose this argument. They lose it bad. A person thinking they can so easily take away what the entirety of the Catholic Church is fundamentally built on is laughable. Even the Greek Orthodox churches, who dissented from the Church because of differences of belief on bishopric power, do not even deny it because it is simply asinine to do so.

 

[aspen]

This conversation is sickening - truly sickening. I am a Catholic Christian, but i am not called to blindly defend every tradition or behavior passed down by the Vatican - I am a follower of Christ, not a Vatican apologist; nor did i ever agree to be a soldout fan of the Vatican who cries out in protest every time an outsider points out a flaw.

All noncatholic Christians are apart of the Body of Christ, no matter how flawed their understanding of doctrine is or isn'T. Doctrine does not save, only Christ saves. There is nothing wrong with correcting misunderstandings about Catholic doctrine, but promoting it is not necessary nor should it be welcomed here

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Cathloicism is many things. It is classical, traditional, historical, consistent Christianity. Protestants can think what they want, they are saved simply by their baptism and preaching, not by their doctrines.

 

[KingJ]

I marvel that we look at this sin as though it is so special. We all have some measure of sin in our being, whether some may care to admit it or not. Jesus said that all sin would be forgiven. He died for the homosexual, too. But what is most disturbing to me is the doctrine of works/salvation. How have we come to the idea that sin can only be forgiven if it is something that the person has to stop doing? Is forgiveness fickle? 1John 2:1, says otherwise.It is based on a sacrifice that was made and justice being served on our behalf.
There is a lifelong process of change in every believer once he comes to Jesus. There are certain things that we can easily leave behind us, and some things in some people that are strongholds in their life. I know those who struggled for years with smoking, and then one day they just woke up and the desire was gone. It didn't happen overnight.

There are those who have no idea what is causing the perverted desires within them and have no idea how to stop them. But Paul gave a commentary on his mindset in Rom.7 about this kind of thing. What was important is that he hated his sin and agreed with the law. Therefore, as he put it, it is no longer I who sin, but sin in me....therefore, there is no condemnation. Walking in the spirit is a mindset. What the homosexual requires is the agreement with God that it is wrong and sinful. If he couild quit, then he would not have needed forgiveness. The same goes for the rest of us.

Just because we cannot relate to a person's struggle, what gives us the lisence to condemn him? I suggest one takes a look at Luke 18:10-14. Everything is to be looked at on an indivdual basis. God can do this better than we can.

Not so good discerning Willie -_-. Forgiveness depends on ''''sincere'' repentane, ''duh''? Sincere repentance involves doing your absolute best to stop. Ie cut off, ie run, ie avoid, ie fast.

Then their are scales of sin. You see smoking on the same level as homosexual? We need to discern level of inner rebellion better. My wife swearing at me is bad. My wife committing adultery is worse.

If God is not first in our lives He is not first in our lives. He is only in our life if He is on the trhone. We can only be confident of going to heaven if He is first. If someone can continue in an extremity of sin, they really do need to ask themselves and others can be forgiven for assuming...that God is not first in their lives, duh?

 

[Foreigner]

This conversation is sickening - truly sickening. I am a Catholic Christian, but i am not called to blindly defend every tradition or behavior passed down by the Vatican - I am a follower of Christ, not a Vatican apologist; nor did i ever agree to be a soldout fan of the Vatican who cries out in protest every time an outsider points out a flaw.

-- Aspen, you are Cafeteria Catholic, going down the line picking that which you want to believe within the Church, and rejecting that which you don't want, regardless of what your church and church father says.
You disagree with their stance on Gay Marriage and choose to actively support it
You disagree on their stance on abortion and choose to support it
You claim the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas should be considered as an actual study aid for Christians even though the Catholic Church has denounced it.

No one's asking you to be an apololgist. And don't start with "No one supports every part of what their church does."
It is reasonable to assume that if you are going to claim you are part of an organization, that you wouldn't summarily reject major cornerstones of what they believe.

 

[aspen]

I am in complete obedience with my church. I also have several different opinions from the Vatican on popular issues. I do not lobby the Vatican to change their doctrine to suit my opinion. I am perfectly willing accept the consequences of my opiinions. I am not willing to fain agreement with the Vatican when I do not agree - which as you know foreigner, is also following the teachings of my church. of course we have been through this discussion many times before and it does nothing to deter you from bearing false witness against me. so I guess I will be writing out what I actually believe the next time you decide to misrepresent my opinions and relationship with me church.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

This conversation is sickening - truly sickening. I am a Catholic Christian, but i am not called to blindly defend every tradition or behavior passed down by the Vatican - I am a follower of Christ, not a Vatican apologist; nor did i ever agree to be a soldout fan of the Vatican who cries out in protest every time an outsider points out a flaw.

All noncatholic Christians are apart of the Body of Christ, no matter how flawed their understanding of doctrine is or isn'T. Doctrine does not save, only Christ saves. There is nothing wrong with correcting misunderstandings about Catholic doctrine, but promoting it is not necessary nor should it be welcomed here

Are you one of those "Catholics for Christ"? Do you speak in tongues? In any case it makes complete sense, as I already passed you of as an infidel, as your mind smacks(trend) of carnality. I picked that up when you were side by side with KCKID on the homosexual thing, chuntering on.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

You see , aspen, they prosecute you even when you take their side.

Such is the way of the Catholic. For ever since the beginning, even in times of supremacy, the Catholic has been prosecuted. And prosecuted you shall be, for the Bible tells you so_

It also tells you to not be gay, but I guess we can neglect that since it's 2013 and all. God must've changed His mind after all this time, put something in your anas to stimulate and tell everyone how natural it is.

You can't even speak on it becayse it's inappropriate. It's more then such- it's an unnatural abonmation.

 

[Foreigner]

I am in complete obedience with my church. I also have several different opinions from the Vatican on popular issues. I do not lobby the Vatican to change their doctrine to suit my opinion. I am perfectly willing accept the consequences of my opiinions.

-- The Vatican does not consider "Gay Marraige" a popular issue. The Pope has said that gay marraige will bring "the destruction of humanity."

The Vatican does not consider Abortion a popular issue. They find it the willful murder of a child that "God has knit together" in it's mother's womb.

You make it sound you are disagreeing on the vestments a priest should wear or whether nuns should be forced to wear habits, when the in reality you are simply chosing not to support two major positions of the church.

And Catholic church aside, anyone who calls himself a Christian, but supports abortion on demand........

And true, you are not "lobbying the Vatican to change their doctrine".......but is there difference between that and willfully and intentionally disobeying it?

I am not willing to fain agreement with the Vatican when I do not agree - which as you know foreigner, is also following the teachings of my church. of course we have been through this discussion many times before and it does nothing to deter you from bearing false witness against me. so I guess I will be writing out what I actually believe the next time you decide to misrepresent my opinions and relationship with me church.

-- How exactly am I "misrepresenting" you? Please be specific.

Pope Benedict stated that gay marraige will 'lead to the destruction of mankind' and the position of the Catholic Church is that it is goes against God's will.
You support gay marraige in contravention of the Catholic Church's position
So where exactly am I "bearing false witness?" Please be specific


The Catholic Church believes that Abortion - the taking of a life - is wrong. Period.
You support abortion for any woman who is pregnant but does not want to give birth. You have stated this position on this very board.
Again, where exactly am I "bearing false witness." Please be specific.


The Catholic Church says that the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas - which teaches that as a child Jesus killed two children and struck several people with blindness, as well as attributes several statements and actions to Jesus that are not supported in the Gospels of the Bible - yet you support it the use of it. Again, you said this on this very board.
So I ask again, where exactly am I "bearing false witness." Please be specific.


Because if you can't, well, that would show it is you who are "bearing false witness" against me.
Don't worry, I forgive you.

Such is the way of the Catholic. For ever since the beginning, even in times of supremacy, the Catholic has been prosecuted.

-- Ah, how convenient. You leave out the centuries where it was the Catholic church that was doing the prosecuting and persecuting.
And you are going to look pretty ill-informed an silly if you deny it or say, "Really, when?"


.

 

[aspen]

Are you one of those "Catholics for Christ"? Do you speak in tongues? In any case it makes complete sense, as I already passed you of as an infidel, as your mind smacks(trend) of carnality. I picked that up when you were side by side with KCKID on the homosexual thing, chuntering on.

Well, then I guess 'It is finished' You have spoken.

You see , aspen, they prosecute you even when you take their side.

Persecution? Really? I do not know about you, but I am sitting comfortably in a warm, Christian bookstore/coffee stop, sipping a latte. Not a lion or a cat of nine tails within 20 miles at least. I am not interested in sides because this is not a war - it is a message board full of Christians.

Such is the way of the Catholic. For ever since the beginning, even in times of supremacy, the Catholic has been prosecuted. And prosecuted you shall be, for the Bible tells you so_

At least wait until you are actually facing torture or death before you ring the persecution bell.

It also tells you to not be gay, but I guess we can neglect that since it's 2013 and all. God must've changed His mind after all this time, put something in your anas to stimulate and tell everyone how natural it is.

You can't even speak on it becayse it's inappropriate. It's more then such- it's an unnatural abonmation.

I think you really need some help with your attitude toward people you do not agree with. We are called to love everyone - even the lepers of our time.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Well, then I guess 'It is finished' You have spoken.



Persecution? Really? I do not know about you, but I am sitting comfortably in a warm, Christian bookstore/coffee stop, sipping a latte. Not a lion or a cat of nine tails within 20 miles at least. I am not interested in sides because this is not a war - it is a message board full of Christians.


At least wait until you are actually facing torture or death before you ring the persecution bell.


I think you really need some help with your attitude toward people you do not agree with. We are called to love everyone - even the lepers of our time.

Persecution isn't always so explicit. Everybody hates the Church, and if you defend it, they shun you and your beliefs. Protestants constantly wage a full on crusade against Catholics, and you're telling me that I should not be allowed to rebuke their falsehoods?

You know what I think you are? I think you are one of those contrarian Christians who has to labor a holier then thou attitude against your own church to make yourself look good for everybody.

 

[aspen]

Persecution isn't always so explicit. Everybody hates the Church, and if you defend it, they shun you and your beliefs. Protestants constantly wage a full on crusade against Catholics, and you're telling me that I should not be allowed to rebuke their falsehoods?

You know what I think you are? I think you are one of those contrarian Christians who has to labor a holier then thou attitude against your own church to make yourself look good for everybody.

Persecution is what you make of it.

Everyone does not hate the church. And for those who do - why does it bother you? You know the truth so who cares? Spend your time loving others rather than keeping score. The truth needs to be shared not defended. Peter tried to fight the soldiers that arrested Jesus and ended up cutting off one of their ears - Jesus didn't 'throw down' and join in the brawl - he told Peter to simmer down and healed the soldier that was going to take Him to His torture and death. Jesus didn't warn us that we were going to be persecuted so that we would be ready to fight the world - He told us so that we would accept it as a fact of life as a Christian.

Your opinion is your opinion.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Persecution is what you make of it.

Everyone does not hate the church. And for those who do - why does it bother you? You know the truth so who cares? Spend your time loving others rather than keeping score. The truth needs to be shared not defended. Peter tried to fight the soldiers that arrested Jesus and ended up cutting off one of their ears - Jesus didn't 'throw down' and join in the brawl - he told Peter to simmer down and healed the soldier that was going to take Him to His torture and death. Jesus didn't warn us that we were going to be persecuted so that we would be ready to fight the world - He told us so that we would accept it as a fact of life as a Christian.

Your opinion is your opinion.

True! Amen.
But there is a sort of persecution, or prejudice depending on the word one wants to choose. Christians are suffering under secular liberalism by losing jobs etc. because of the lgbt issue. Indeed its so bad that someone who in 2009 wrote to the newspaper about what he saw as positives for adult child-sex would under present circumstances with the Jimmy Saville et al, be banished from media and society, yet is still the leading UK lgbt activist and actively influencing government policy.
One only has to ponder on this to realise the intent lurking.


NB I should also be a little careful of Walter Wink's statement "Jesus taught that God loves everyone, and values all, even those who make themselves God's enemies" Jesus didnt teach this exactly, and indeed Jesus has made the way, it was because God so loved the world that God has made through Jesus a way and a reconciliation from the pit to be crowned in glory. As Christ's NT teaching says people are either still in Adam, or now in Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Trying to get back on track here...

Yes GOD can redeem a person who practices any sin IF that person ceases to practice that sin.

You folks are doing this forum a disservice by engaging SIM. He is an egomaniac who thrives on attention, and steers every thread into a Catholic vs. protestant mud-sling. Ignore him, do not even acknowledge his existence. He will go away. They always do.

 

[KCKID]

What is it about homosexuality that mainstream Christians find so hard to deal with? Why such militance from so many whenever the subject is raised? The Bible in its entirety only mentions the topic about 5 times - FIVE TIMES! - and yet one could be forgiven for believing (thanks to the Christian obsession with the subject) that God has a special ax to grind with homosexuals that He doesn't with the rest of us. This simply is NOT the case at all. God DOESN'T have a special ax to grind when it comes to homosexuality. However, Christians do! Some even refer to homosexuality as 'a grave sin' which, I guess, makes their particular sins less grave. They didn't get the term 'grave sin' from the Bible. They made that up themselves. One more time, references to homosexuality are found only FIVE TIMES in the entire Bible. The first two - in the Old Testament - are rather ambiguous and could be referring to temple prostitution/idol worship and such sexual practices ...it depends on how one wishes to interpret them. Again ...these texts are rather ambiguous and are OPEN TO INTERPRETATION. In any event, the simplified explanation of these texts are that the purity instructions were intended for a specific ancient tribe and its Levitical priests and are not applicable to we of today. And THAT is a fact! The remaining texts in the New Testament that address homosexuality are MOST CERTAINLY addressing idol worship practices. One only has to check out 'idol worship practices during the Bible era' on the web for a complete rundown as to what these practices entailed - lots and lots of sex! - and how such practices were impinging upon the early Christian Church and, therefore, condemned by Paul, et al. It seems that the majority of Christians are blind to these other equally valid interpretations of these texts. They prefer to have these texts condemn homosexuality across the board. They don't want to hear anything other. Why? What is it about homosexuality that gets their tights in such a twist? Obviously, it can't be because of the Bible. It's FAR deeper than that.

So, again ....what is it about homosexuality that mainstream Christians find so hard to deal with? Why are they, for instance, not as zealous about adultery? What about greed? Most of us are tainted with this vice. Our very culture embraces and encourages it. The Bible refers to greed as the root of all evil. Christianity is ear-splittingly silent when it comes to greed. Why? But anyway, back to adultery since it involves the magic word 'sex'. The Christian Church abounds with scriptural adulterers, i.e. those who divorce and remarry, but hardly anyone bats an eye. Adultery is condemned many times in the Bible and was, and still IS in some parts of the world, an act punishable by death. But, we never hear about this 'sin' from these very same Christians who are so obsessed with homosexuality. In fact, I would guess that some or many of those who have divorced and remarried are a part of the anti-homosexual crowd. Why is homosexuality so frowned on, do you think, but not adultery? Incidentally, the words 'adultery', 'adulterers', 'adulteries', 'adulteress', 'adulterous', 'adulterer' and 'adulteresses' appear 68 times in the Bible as, again, compared to the 5 times that homosexuality is referenced. Are Christians in such an anti-gay stupor that they are blind to the commonality of scriptural adultery that is going on in their Churches under their very noses? Why homosexuality?

Homosexuality. Is this something that God can redeem? Well, if God doesn't have a problem with the presence of blatant adultery and its acceptance by Christians in our Churches then why would He have a problem with homosexuality? Again, why homosexuality? You, dear reader, should be smart enough to work that out all by yourself.

 

[Rex]

What is it about homosexuality that mainstream Christians find so hard to deal with? Why such militance from so many whenever the subject is raised?

What is it about pro homosexual Christians all they want to talk about is homosexuality?
Then complain about what they hear because they keep believing it's not being a sin.

 

[aspen]

homosexuality is a sin that is easily condemned by people who are not tempted by it. 5rom what i have noticed after posting on many conservative christian boards is that homosexual rights are equated with liberalism and the secularization of western society and therefore attacked vigorously by certain members. the hypocrisy of singling out the sin of homosexuality for attack often brings out opposition from others who are roundly condemned as either homosexual advocate or homosexuals, themselves. No other issue riles up a fundy like the legal protection of a homosexual....hypocrisy be damned! lol

 

[Rex]

homosexuality is a sin that is easily condemned by people who are not tempted by it. 5rom what i have noticed after posting on many conservative christian boards is that homosexual rights are equated with liberalism and the secularization of western society and therefore attacked vigorously by certain members. the hypocrisy of singling out the sin of homosexuality for attack often brings out opposition from others who are roundly condemned as either homosexual advocate or homosexuals, themselves. No other issue riles up a fundy like the legal protection of a homosexual....hypocrisy be damned! lol

If its a sin as you say then why do you carry one of the very founders of the Queen James bible on your signature? Walter Wink
The guy that literally rewrote and removed all the biblical references to homosexual as a sin from the bible, I don't think your being completely truthful aspen

This article
appeared in the Christian Century November 7, 1979
By Walter Wink

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1265

 

[KCKID]

What is it about pro homosexual Christians all they want to talk about is homosexuality?
Then complain about what they hear because they keep believing it's not being a sin.

I don't initiate the threads on homosexuality. The anti-homosexuals do. Obviously, all THEY want to talk about is homosexuality. As a member of the forum I respond with my own thoughts, just the same as you. However, besides sarcastic one-liners it seems that you're incapable of countering my thoughts with anything meaningful. Sin! Sin! Sin! That's Rex and his brand of Christianity.

If you're so hell-bent on your favorite topic - SIN - then why don't you address and publicly condemn the more blatant - but ignored by Christianity - SINS that I referenced in my post just as zealously as you condemn homosexuality? Are you really serious about being down on 'sin'? Nah, I would think not . . .

 

[meshak]

KCKID,

why are you so obsessed about homosexuality? You say you are a christian and if you are you should know that homosexaul sex is not holy thing to do. Jesus' followers should not advocate any kind of sinful practice. Jesus says sin no more.