Is homosexuality something God can redeem?

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

Compassion does not mean acceptance any more than feeling badly for an
animal caught in a trap means you approve of the trap. Jesus had a lot of
compassion on the woman caught in the very act of adultery but nevertheless He
said go and sin no more.

If there is a grey area in this debate it is in reference to those who may
be born with a condition that genetically predisposes them to same sex
relationships. In such cases, if they do indeed exist, then I would
assume God gives grace. However, for those who choose the gay
"lifestyle" I believe their choice of such behavior is sin and they
need to seek deliverance not matter how difficult the struggle is. The
scriptures, in my opinion do not leave room for any other conclusion.

I suppose I have a difficulty with those who want to turn compassion for
people caught in this snare into acceptance of this sin. It simply can't
be done for the scriptures are clear on this point. Does God give grace
where He can? Certainly. However, in no stretch of the scriptures
can one say that our Father now condones same sex relationships. Why
would He want to? He did not create male and female that way.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Selene]

Whenever discussing\debating sexual orientation issues such as homosexuality, there is always someone who compares homosexuality to the raping of children. What two consenting adults do in private is between them, and God. Its really is nobody else business. Crimes against children have no connection to this issue.

I agree that what homosexuals do in their bedrooms is their own business. That's their choice, and I never had any problems with this. If they wish to commit homosexual acts, that is not my problem. However, it becomes everyone's problem when gay activists go into the public schools and brainwash our children into thinking that the ACT of homosexuality is normal. It becomes everyone's problem when they go into Christian schools and FORCE Christian schools to teach that the ACT of homosexuality is normal despite that it goes against the values and religion of those schools. It becomes everyone's problem when they want to FORCE everyone to recognize that the ACT of homosexuality is normal and to accept same sex marriage as normal and another form of marriage when in the first place, it was never a form of marriage since the dawn of mankind.

 

[JackSafari]

I agree that what homosexuals do in their bedrooms is their own business. That's their choice, and I never had any problems with this. If they wish to commit homosexual acts, that is not my problem. However, it becomes everyone's problem when gay activists go into the public schools and brainwash our children into thinking that the ACT of homosexuality is normal. It becomes everyone's problem when they go into Christian schools and FORCE Christian schools to teach that the ACT of homosexuality is normal despite that it goes against the values and religion of those schools. It becomes everyone's problem when they want to FORCE everyone to recognize that the ACT of homosexuality is normal and to accept same sex marriage as normal and another form of marriage when in the first place, it was never a form of marriage since the dawn of mankind.

What you describe is an overstatement of public policy and not accurate, nobody is forced to be taught anything in regards to sexual orientation. What is taught in public schools is tolerance for others. Which, in the multi-culture societies, works effectively because history shows that acceptance and tolerance of individual differences is good for every society. Progressive societies move forward faster in terms of social awareness and spiritual\ religious development because they are inclusive and value the differences among people, nobody is excluded.

How people view God and interpret the Bible, fall into two key categories "inclusion" or "exclusion". Commonly ask as: "Is the cup half full, or half empty?" Inclusion means unconditional acceptance for all; Sins do not define the person. Exclusion: Sins defines the person. Those who worship God based on exclusion, seek to find reasons to exclude people, thus they continue exclude others based on so many things. Homosexuality is one reason to exclude a group of people, but clearly is not the only group.

 

[KCKID]

That may be how you treat strangers in your country, but that depiction in that movie is Hollywood myth, just like your expositions of scripture. It is really funny to see you spend so much time writing so many stupid words.

The first part of your response ...too ridiculous to respond to. I can't believe you even said something that stupid, but ...anyway, I've given you more time than I care to.

Ignorance is bliss, CRFTD, so go ahead and preach your message of hate. When you next hear about the suicide of a young homosexual who could not bear the thought of living any longer because he/she was so demonized by the likes of yourself and your cruel brand of "Christianity" ...take some responsibility. Okay?

Note: The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services puts the annual rate of suicide in the U.S. at between 35,000 and 40,000 per year. Of that number, almost 20 percent are teenagers between the ages of 12 and 18. According to HHS, suicide is the second leading cause of death among teenagers in the U.S.

Psychological autopsies - that is, examination of a person's psychological state in the time leading up to their death - show an alarming 30 percent of LGBT youth among these dead teens. And psychologists believe that number, too, may also be much higher than actually noted in the statistics, as gay teens are most likely to have the true cause of their death and their sexual identity hidden by family members.

 

[JackSafari]

.

Psychological autopsies - that is, examination of a person's psychological state in the time leading up to their death - show an alarming 30 percent of LGBT youth among these dead teens. And psychologists believe that number, too, may also be much higher than actually noted in the statistics, as gay teens are most likely to have the true cause of their death and their sexual identity hidden by family members.

For a number of years I lived in a rural Christian community. One thing all gays people knew at that time was never ever reveal their sexual preference because those that did, were unmercifully harassed (ie at school). There were a couple of families that moved away because they had a gay member in the family, and it was an unhealthy Christian community to have a gay son\daughter. It really was ignorance that promoted gay bashing. Today, 30 years later, that same Christian community is much more accepting of gays, maybe not endorsing homosexuality, but gay people no longer feel unwelcome or harassed. The school no longer tolerates gay harassment as it did 30 years ago (teachers looked the other way and nobody was punished), so overall I have seen a lot progress in places where homophobia was once very common.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The first part of your response ...too ridiculous to respond to. I can't believe you even said something that stupid, but ...anyway, I've given you more time than I care to.

Ignorance is bliss, CRFTD, so go ahead and preach your message of hate. When you next hear about the suicide of a young homosexual who could not bear the thought of living any longer because he/she was so demonized by the likes of yourself and your cruel brand of "Christianity" ...take some responsibility. Okay?

Note: The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services puts the annual rate of suicide in the U.S. at between 35,000 and 40,000 per year. Of that number, almost 20 percent are teenagers between the ages of 12 and 18. According to HHS, suicide is the second leading cause of death among teenagers in the U.S.

Psychological autopsies - that is, examination of a person's psychological state in the time leading up to their death - show an alarming 30 percent of LGBT youth among these dead teens. And psychologists believe that number, too, may also be much higher than actually noted in the statistics, as gay teens are most likely to have the true cause of their death and their sexual identity hidden by family members.

You are one sick manipulator.

 

[Angelina]

There is a reason why God does not tolerate such things...

1 Corinthians 6
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

For those who profess to be believer's, it is imperative that your body is not being used in a way that dishonors God and grieves the Holy Spirit. You are not your own. This includes fornication, adultery, prostitution, homosexuality, bestiality and the like....such things are an abomination to the Lord and in the OT they were punishable by death. This does not mean that those caught up in sexual immoral practices cannot repent because they can and they must also turn from such practices and sin no more.

The God of the OT is the same God of the NT and he has not changed his mind about these things.

Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

For those who do not know our Lord and savior, God will judge. We just treat them like any other non-believer, hoping for an opportunity to communicate God's love for them through his word.

Shalom!

 

[Selene]

What you describe is an overstatement of public policy and not accurate, nobody is forced to be taught anything in regards to sexual orientation. What is taught in public schools is tolerance for others. Which, in the multi-culture societies, works effectively because history shows that acceptance and tolerance of individual differences is good for every society. Progressive societies move forward faster in terms of social awareness and spiritual\ religious development because they are inclusive and value the differences among people, nobody is excluded.

How people view God and interpret the Bible, fall into two key categories "inclusion" or "exclusion". Commonly ask as: "Is the cup half full, or half empty?" Inclusion means unconditional acceptance for all; Sins do not define the person. Exclusion: Sins defines the person. Those who worship God based on exclusion, seek to find reasons to exclude people, thus they continue exclude others based on so many things. Homosexuality is one reason to exclude a group of people, but clearly is not the only group.

An overstatement?? Below is what you stated to Justin in your post:

Justin, your compassion for people is obvious and it is something I respect and admire. You clearly want people to live fulling lives to the best of their ability, and you want to help them as much as you can. We just simply disagree on the issue, and that is OK with me.

I have encountered your perception of homosexuality before, and it can be best summarized as homosexuality being the same as a drug addiction or alcoholism, something that must be fought every moment or relapse into self-destructive behavior. From a religious perspective I can understand how homosexuality can be perceived that way because some define\perceive homosexuality as a person with a sexual problem, thus "homosexual sex" is like a drug addict taking drugs because he is out of control.... The reason I perceive this is highly inaccurate is because the vast majority of homosexuals lead happy and productive lives while having regular sex, just like heterosexual couples who have regular\healthy sex. When accepted by friends\family\community\church they are well adjusted individuals. Homosexuals that deny themselves sex, tend to be unhappy, frustrated, and feel guilty because they have been taught that being a homosexual is bad\evil\immoral\satanic\etc, and they are inherently bad for being who they are. Yes, there are going to be homosexuals who are self-destructive, over indulge in sex, and fall into the category of being a lost soul, but its not because they are homosexual, its because they have various kinds of personal problems, just like heterosexuals who are self-destructive, over indulge in sex, drugs, and other activities that harm themselves.

Overall, I do respect how you handle yourself and your religious beliefs even if I don't agree with your conclusions on homosexuality.

You have found Justin to be compassionate and tolerant; yet, you and KCKID continue to debate with him and other Christians under this thread regarding our views on homosexuality. You even misinterpret scripture to your own advantage to try and brainwash Christians that the Bible never condemn the ACT of homosexuality. Is not our tolerance and acceptance of homosexuals enough for you?? Must you also try to convince us that we are wrong and that we should accept the ACT of homosexuality as normal?? Already, KCKID is trying to brainwash Christians under this thread by misleading them about scripture. The Book of Leviticus already stated that a man should not lie together with another man as though he was lying with a woman. Christianity is to love the sinner, but never in Christianity does it mean that we are to love the sin. So, Christians are called to love homosexuals, but we are not called to love the ACT of homosexuality nor view it as normal.

 

[JackSafari]

An overstatement?? Below is what you stated to Justin in your post:



You have found Justin to be compassionate and tolerant; yet, you and KCKID continue to debate with him and other Christians under this thread regarding our views on homosexuality. You even misinterpret scripture to your own advantage to try and brainwash Christians that the Bible never condemn the ACT of homosexuality. Is not our tolerance and acceptance of homosexuals enough for you?? Must you also try to convince us that we are wrong and that we should accept the ACT of homosexuality as normal?? Already, KCKID is trying to brainwash Christians under this thread by misleading them about scripture. The Book of Leviticus already stated that a man should not lie together with another man as though he was lying with a woman. Christianity is to love the sinner, but never in Christianity does it mean that we are to love the sin. So, Christians are called to love homosexuals, but we are not called to love the ACT of homosexuality nor view it as normal.

People can be tolerate and respectful towards each other, yet not agree; its well known that Christians frequently do not agree with each other, so disagreement is nothing usual. Example, many Christian churches openly accept LGBT, and do not condemn them, while clearly other Christian churches will not accept LGBT unless they denounce homosexuality, which is conditional acceptance. This is where, as I suggested in a previous post, people tended to be conditional\exclusive in their religious perspective, or unconditional\inclusive. Its never quite that clear, because people tend to be a little of both, but generally they lean one direction or the other in how they look at life. Another way to view it is "optimistic" or "pessimistic". I clearly fall into the Optimistic category because I have faith that God designed the world so that ignorance is weaker than the truth, even if ignorance sometimes appears to be stronger in the short term because ignorance can invoke fear, distrust, hate, violence, harassment, prejudiced, condemnation, and other self-destructive qualities that exist within the human condition.

 

[KCKID]

There is a reason why God does not tolerate such things...

1 Corinthians 6
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

For those who profess to be believer's, it is imperative that your body is not being used in a way that dishonors God and grieves the Holy Spirit. You are not your own. This includes fornication, adultery, prostitution, homosexuality, bestiality and the like....such things are an abomination to the Lord and in the OT they were punishable by death. This does not mean that those caught up in sexual immoral practices cannot repent because they can and they must also turn from such practices and sin no more.

The God of the OT is the same God of the NT and he has not changed his mind about these things.

Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

For those who do not know our Lord and savior, God will judge. We just treat them like any other non-believer, hoping for an opportunity to communicate God's love for them through his word.

Shalom!

Heap upon heap upon heap of scriptures solely for the purpose of demonizing another human being.

You are one sick manipulator.

I keep telling myself ...these are just words on a screen ...people are really NOT this insensitive in real life. God, I hope that I'm right . . .

 

[Angelina]

no...it's the word of God and yep you either believe what is written or you don't but please don't call yourself a believer if you can't follow what God says in his word. :huh:

 

[KCKID]

no...it's the word of God and yep you either believe what is written or you don't but please don't call yourself a believer if you can't follow what God says in his word. :huh:

I'm a believer in Jesus and also a follower of Jesus ...Though I admit not a very good one at times. The Torah is gone, the Gospel has superceded it. Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned. So, therefore I disagree with what you say above and yet I STILL call myself a Christian.

 

[JackSafari]

Following the word of God requires personal interpretation of The Scriptures, and no two people can agree even remotely close, which explains why many Christians churches openly accept LGBT, and many don't. Its a matter how anyone chooses to interpret the bible. You likely would say such Christians Churches who accept LGBT unconditionally are wrong or misguided, and they simply would disagree.

 

[KCKID]

Following the word of God requires personal interpretation of The Scriptures, and no two people can agree even remotely close, which explains why many Christians churches openly accept LGBT, and many don't. Its a matter how anyone chooses to interpret the bible. You likely would say such Christians Churches who accept LGBT unconditionally are wrong or misguided, and they simply would disagree.

That Christianity has sunk to the level of "I'm right and you are wrong" is why Christian Fundamentalism must go and the actual 'Gospel' ushered in ...ASAP!

 

[Angelina]

People can be tolerate and respectful towards each other, yet not agree; its well known that Christians frequently do not agree with each other, so disagreement is nothing usual. Example, many Christian churches openly accept LGBT, and do not condemn them, while clearly other Christian churches will not accept LGBT unless they denounce homosexuality, which is conditional acceptance. This is where, as I suggested in a previous post, people tended to be conditional\exclusive in their religious perspective, or unconditional\inclusive. Its never quite that clear, because people tend to be a little of both, but generally they lean one direction or the other in how they look at life. Another way to view it is "optimistic" or "pessimistic". I clearly fall into the Optimistic category because I have faith that God designed the world so that ignorance is weaker than the truth, even if ignorance sometimes appears to be stronger in the short term because ignorance can invoke fear, distrust, hate, violence, harassment, prejudiced, condemnation, and other self-destructive qualities that exist within the human condition.

Ignorance ignores God's word and says that there are many roads that lead to God. There is only one road and it is narrow. :huh: Christ did not die for nothing...and his expectation is that we do not remain in the condition we are in when we first got saved but that we become more like Christ while in the process of sanctification. Homosexuality does not belong in the household of God nor does any other sexually immoral sin especially those who ignore God's word and continue to practice it.
Shalom!

I'm a believer in Jesus and also a follower of Jesus ...Though I admit not a very good one at times. The Torah is gone, the Gospel has superceded it. Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned. So, therefore I disagree with what you say above and yet I STILL call myself a Christian.

No-one said that salvation was a gift that could be earned. We are talking about knowingly living in sin and being a believer. Not a non-believer, living in sin. That is God's call not ours. You can disagree as much as you like, it ain't going to divinely change God's mind or his word... :huh:

BB

 

[KCKID]

Ignorance ignores God's word and says that there are many roads that lead to God. There is only one road and it is narrow. :huh: Christ did not die for nothing...and his expectation is that we do not remain in the condition we are in when we first got saved but that we become more like Christ while in the process of sanctification. Homosexuality does not belong in the household of God nor does any other sexually immoral sin especially those who ignore God's word and continue to practice it.



Shalom!

And yet, the sound of crickets is ear-shattering from the Church and Christians in general with regard to the high turnover of divorce and remarriage in the Church. To repeat your own words, Angelina, sexual immorality does not belong in the house of God, nor those who ignore God's word and continue to practice it.

 

[Angelina]

That is correct and that goes for all sexually immoral sins...especially for those who continue to practice it! :huh:

 

[KCKID]

That is correct and that goes for all sexually immoral sins...especially for those who continue to practice it! :huh:

Okay. So when do we start this vast clean-out of scriptural adulterers? ;)

 

[Rex]

And yet, the sound of crickets is ear-shattering from the Church and Christians in general with regard to the high turnover of divorce and remarriage in the Church. To repeat your own words, Angelina, sexual immorality does not belong in the house of God, nor those who ignore God's word and continue to practice it.

So how goes the battle you have any converts to your religion? Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Okay. So when do we start this vast clean-out of scriptural adulterers? ;)

Apparently you would like everyone to start by accepting homosexuality as being holy. ;)

 

[Angelina]

Following the word of God requires personal interpretation of The Scriptures, and no two people can agree even remotely close, which explains why many Christians churches openly accept LGBT, and many don't. Its a matter how anyone chooses to interpret the bible. You likely would say such Christians Churches who accept LGBT unconditionally are wrong or misguided, and they simply would disagree.

God's word is very clear. Those who accept LGBT into their Church without challenging their lifestyle are compromising...such compromise will bring the world into their Church until they become secular and without God...A secular Church is a social club.

Shalom!