Is it ever ok to lie?

[EloyCraft]

If you were hiding them, and you hadn’t seen them that day, You could honestly say, Not seen any today.

If you wife takes them food, and you answer the soldiers, again you had not seen any today.

Can always tell the truth.

Do people always deserve the whole truth? No.

Most of that is a matter of semantics. The real question is,
did the household lie to the soldiers? I think if the soldiers conducted a search and found the Jews hidden in the house there would be no doubt that they were being decieved.
The most sublime lie uses true statements to weave deception.

 

[EloyCraft]

Paul wrote , for me nothing is forbidden but not all does good.

I know for myself that even if I out right lied to the Nazi soldiers I would feel like I did a very good thing.

I think the answer is found in this scripture


Ecclesiastes 3

1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

 

[Taken]

Most of that is a matter of semantics. The real question is,
did the household lie to the soldiers? I think if the soldiers conducted a search and found the Jews hidden in the house there would be no doubt that they were being decieved.
The most sublime lie uses true statements to weave deception.

I delineate between my business and an others business.
I conduct business in my home according to MY rules, not an OTHER mans rules.

 

[PinSeeker]

Because i love that Marlon Brando eye roll gif so much im going to see how you respond to some examples

It's great, isn't it? Love Brando...

Suppose you were hiding a family of Jews from the Nazis during the second world war. Some Nazi soldiers come to your door asking if you had seen any Jews. Would it be wrong to tell the soldiers you haven't?

Well that depends on who (or Who) you ask. My answer would be, "Of course I've seen Jews before. Who hasn't?" Beyond that, if I were to answer truthfully and say, "Why yes, Mr. Soldiers, I'm hiding a Jewish family in my attic," would I not be betraying that Jewish family and thus making my promise to hide them from the Nazis a lie? So then actually, I would have a choice to make regarding the lesser of two evils ~ sins, even lies ~ right? And in any case, I could still confess my sin and know that in doing so, God is faithful and just to forgive. In any case, whether I lie or tell the truth, God is still going to ~ as Romans 8:28 says ~ work all things... even the sins of people... together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

Does everyone always deserve to know the truth?

Given that all are created in God's image, I say yes. Even so, it's not about someone else's deserving or undeserving, but whether one tells the truth under any circumstance and trusts that God will be absolutely faithful and will work things out for His own glory, which... He will, as He always is/does.

For example. You have a wife that asks "do I look fat in this dress?" You know she does but what do you say?

"You look beautiful." And I'd mean it with every ounce of my soul, especially given the fact that God gave me my wife as a gift and she is my covenant bride.

Or your primary school child brings home a drawing of the family. It's horrible but you still put it up on the fridge and tell her its fantastic. Is that so bad?

There are many ways things can be fantastic, Christo. I say, especially since it's my child ~ also given to me by God ~ that in saying that, I would not be lying.

Or how about a fictional book or movie? They're lies

LOL! No they're not, Cristo. They're works of art, actually. Jesus told fictional stories called parables. Were they lies? No, that's ridiculous. Now, if one writes a fictional book or makes a fictional movie and bills it as absolutely true and something that really happened, then... he or she is lying. Right? Well, yes, right. Wow.

My goodness. Grace and peace to you.

 

[bbyrd009]

And at least these three Scripture passages would be untrue (which is also not the case):

"God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind." (Numbers 23:19)

and yet Yah did change His mind, on a couple occasions that i can think of…

may i suggest that Yah’s meaning of “perfect” and ours may not be the same?

"Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, Who never lies, promised before the ages began..." (Titus 1:1-2)

11 For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie…
.

"So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of His purpose, He guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us."

so i hope you understand that i am not meaning to disagree with you here, so much as point out that having such absolute positions is untenable, and actually counter to “God” i think

 

[bbyrd009]

If you were hiding them, and you hadn’t seen them that day, You could honestly say, Not seen any today.

If you wife takes them food, and you answer the soldiers, again you had not seen any today.



Can always tell the truth.



Do people always deserve the whole truth? No.

What goes on about in your home, is not my business.
What is a Nazi soldier’s orders, is not my business to help him accomplish “his” orders.

Did or Does a Jew look different than all other people, that if I see one, I know he is a Jew?

and if you had seen them that day, what would you say then

 

[bbyrd009]

Your just scratching the surface.
Dig deeper and you will see that there are lies that have good intentions.
You haven't given that a thought at all.
People have given good examples if you care to read them

i would def false witness my hiney off, in court, under oath, if it would hinder evil from functioning. Now i might get a fuller understanding later, who knows

 

[PinSeeker]

and yet Yah did change His mind, on a couple occasions that I can think of…

And I would say that His purposes were His purposes all along. But it is a great and awesome thing that God includes us and our petitions in the carrying out of His purposes, no?

may i suggest that Yah’s meaning of “perfect” and ours may not be the same?

In the sense that we as finite and lesser than holy cannot truly grasp or fully attain to the infinite and absolutely holy, sure. Yes, as Isaiah says, His ways are not our ways, His thoughts not our thoughts (Isaiah 55). And as David says, His thoughts are high, and we cannot attain to them (Psalm 139).

11 For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie.

To construe this as Paul saying God lies is a mistake, bbyrd. What Paul is saying there is that because unbelievers have rejected God's offer of salvation in the Gospel, God sends them a strong delusion. As part of His righteous judgment, God is instrumental in causing these unbelievers to believe what is false so that they advance to an even greater level of rebellion and are thus condemned at the second coming of Christ. Hard to hear, but true.

so i hope you understand that i am not meaning to disagree with you here, so much as point out that having such absolute positions is untenable, and actually counter to “God” i think

I understand. But, I think differently than you, at least in these things.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Taken]

and if you had seen them that day, what would you say then

I would turn to Jesus’ example.
Ignore the question and ask a question instead.

 

[EloyCraft]

I would turn to Jesus’ example.
Ignore the question and ask a question instead.

I would tell the Nazi' soldiers, "if I see one of those ****ty Jews around here I'll kill them myself!" Then offer them some milk to drink and ask them to sit a while and take a break.
I think Jesus would feel what the Jewish family hidden in the attic would feel hearing that.

 

[PinSeeker]

I would tell the Nazi' soldiers, "if I see one of those ****ty Jews around here I'll kill them myself!"

But that would be a lie. I hope...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[EloyCraft]

But that would be a lie. I hope...

Grace and peace to you.

Yup.
Grace and peace.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Im not beating myself up.
I'm just asking if there is ever a time where it's ok to lie. For example to protect someone's feelings or as a joke.

Example
You have a wife that asks
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
You know it does.
Should you say so or lie to keep the peace in the relationship?

We used to kick around the following example. Suppose you have Jewish friends over for dinner. A knock on the door reveals a German gestapo agent, looking for Jewish people. He asks, "Do you have any Jewish people here?" Do you tell the truth or do you lie?

The answer to the question, and the rationale for lying can be understood if we frame the question differently. Suppose he asked, "Will you help me kill the Jews by telling me where they are?" The obvious answer is "No, I do not wish to help you and participate in genocide." In this way, we understand that often times there is a hidden question behind a question and in order to tell the truth with regard to the hidden question, we are sometimes force to lie with regard to the explicit question. By saying, "No, there are no Jews living in this house," (which is false) I am also saying, "No, I do not want to help you commit genocide." (which is true.)

If a woman asks her husband, while he is watching TV, "does this dress make me look fat?" What is the hidden question? It might be, "are you willing to stop what you are doing in order to notice me?"

Maybe.

 

[Cristo Rei]

If you were hiding them, and you hadn’t seen them that day, You could honestly say, Not seen any today.

If you wife takes them food, and you answer the soldiers, again you had not seen any today.



Can always tell the truth.



Do people always deserve the whole truth? No.

What goes on about in your home, is not my business.
What is a Nazi soldier’s orders, is not my business to help him accomplish “his” orders.

Did or Does a Jew look different than all other people, that if I see one, I know he is a Jew?

LoL you twisted that to suit...

What if you had seen the Jews that day.
How would you answer the Nazi soldier?

I think your clutching at straws for excuses to your first reaction that it's never ok to lie.
But many of us have found situations where lying in good faith ain't so bad if your protecting someone Or even just joking

Books, movies, comedy also involves lies.
No harm done. Have you thought of that one?

 

[lforrest]

We used to kick around the following example. Suppose you have Jewish friends over for dinner. A knock on the door reveals a German gestapo agent, looking for Jewish people. He asks, "Do you have any Jewish people here?" Do you tell the truth or do you lie?

The answer to the question, and the rationale for lying can be understood if we frame the question differently. Suppose he asked, "Will you help me kill the Jews by telling me where they are?" The obvious answer is "No, I do not wish to help you and participate in genocide." In this way, we understand that often times there is a hidden question behind a question and in order to tell the truth with regard to the hidden question, we are sometimes force to lie with regard to the explicit question. By saying, "No, there are no Jews living in this house," (which is false) I am also saying, "No, I do not want to help you commit genocide." (which is true.)

If a woman asks her husband, while he is watching TV, "does this dress make me look fat?" What is the hidden question? It might be, "are you willing to stop what you are doing in order to notice me?"

Maybe.

One could answer 'no' truthfully if they believe Romans 2:28-29.

And no this specific dress doesn't make you look fat.

 

[Taken]

LoL you twisted that to suit...

What if you had seen the Jews that day.
How would you answer the Nazi soldier?

I think your clutching at straws for excuses to your first reaction that it's never ok to lie.
But many of us have found situations where lying in good faith ain't so bad if your protecting someone Or even just joking

Books, movies, comedy also involves lies.
No harm done. Have you thought of that one?

Already covered joking, fables, fiction.
Bottom line was about lying.
In that scenario, did I lie?

The stats via studies of how many times people lie daily is staggering.
And Why? (As well, cheating in schools is also staggering, but yet the number of schools plastering “excellence” on their school marque is laughable. Universities as well.)

 

[Cristo Rei]

Already covered joking, fables, fiction.
Bottom line was about lying.
In that scenario, did I lie?

The stats via studies of how many times people lie daily is staggering.
And Why? (As well, cheating in schools is also staggering, but yet the number of schools plastering “excellence” on their school marque is laughable. Universities as well.)

Are you holding Jews...

You have just got your Jewish friends killed.
And because you tried to cover for them you got yourself killed.

All for telling the truth to an evil person.
Great outcome if your ready to die. LoL

 

[Cristo Rei]

It's great, isn't it? Love Brando...


Well that depends on who (or Who) you ask. My answer would be, "Of course I've seen Jews before. Who hasn't?" Beyond that, if I were to answer truthfully and say, "Why yes, Mr. Soldiers, I'm hiding a Jewish family in my attic," would I not be betraying that Jewish family and thus making my promise to hide them from the Nazis a lie? So then actually, I would have a choice to make regarding the lesser of two evils ~ sins, even lies ~ right? And in any case, I could still confess my sin and know that in doing so, God is faithful and just to forgive. In any case, whether I lie or tell the truth, God is still going to ~ as Romans 8:28 says ~ work all things... even the sins of people... together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.


Given that all are created in God's image, I say yes. Even so, it's not about someone else's deserving or undeserving, but whether one tells the truth under any circumstance and trusts that God will be absolutely faithful and will work things out for His own glory, which... He will, as He always is/does.


"You look beautiful." And I'd mean it with every ounce of my soul, especially given the fact that God gave me my wife as a gift and she is my covenant bride.


There are many ways things can be fantastic, Christo. I say, especially since it's my child ~ also given to me by God ~ that in saying that, I would not be lying.


LOL! No they're not, Cristo. They're works of art, actually. Jesus told fictional stories called parables. Were they lies? No, that's ridiculous. Now, if one writes a fictional book or makes a fictional movie and bills it as absolutely true and something that really happened, then... he or she is lying. Right? Well, yes, right. Wow.

My goodness. Grace and peace to you.

You got stuck with the Nazi example and lied.
And by telling your wife she looked beautiful you avoided her question in a shifty way.

Look, I understand your arguments and agree that we should always strive to tell the truth.
I'm just saying sometimes it's you have no choice like with the Nazi example.

I love that Brando eye roll so much I will use it on someone.
The Rock has a great eye roll gif if your a fan of him

 

[Taken]

Are you holding Jews...

Holding? No.

You have just got your Jewish friends killed.

What? I didn’t kill anyone.

And because you tried to cover for them you got yourself killed.

What? I was killed for helping a Jew. Well, I wonder what Jesus would have to say about that.

All for telling the truth to an evil person.
Great outcome if your ready to die. LoL

All body’s shall die. Some sooner than others.

 

[BruiserMiller]

The bible tells us that "Satan is the father of lies"

Ok

So then, is there ever an appropriate reason for us to lie?

What about withholding the truth?
Is that just as bad as a lie?

No, it's never Okay to Lie...

If it were ever Okay for Jesus to Lie, then it would be Okay to Lie. It was never Okay for Jesus to Lie...