Is it possible to lose salvation?

[LoveYeshua]

Yes, God's Eternal Salvation ( Deliverance from Undiluted Wrath ) Is Conditional On God's
( Jesus Christ's ) Finished Sacrificial Work Giving His ALL-Sufficient BLOOD!

There are, In Biblical Fact, Three Tenses Of God's Salvation ( Deliverances )! Because of Undiluted Grace!

God Will Never forfeit His Own OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!!

Amen.

Hi GA,

I just want you to know I noticed in your post, the one i replied to with the links that almost all if not all bible verses are from Paul, I know Christ did say quite a lot of things that are for us all, then why do you almost exclusively quote Paul and almost Never Christ? just curious.

 

[LoveYeshua]

The unavoidable implication of what you've written here is that you, the "saved" person, is a co-Savior with Jesus. But this is impossible. You would have to be as Christ is, perfect and infinite, in order to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with him as a co-Savior. But you have to be saved by Jesus precisely because you aren't perfect or infinite and cannot, therefore, save yourself (Ro. 5:6-10; Tit. 3:3-5; Eph. 2:1-3). In fact, elevating yourself to position of co-Savior with Jesus is a kind of blasphemy, requiring that Jesus be diminished in the efficacy of his atoning work on the cross, and that you be enlarged in your ability to contribute to what only Jesus could do as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (Jn. 1:29).

When, then, you take up the responsibility (and the power) to keep yourself saved, you deny both the completeness and power of Christ's salvific work at Calvary. To think you must exert yourself to retain his salvation of you is to necessarily indicate that his saving work was insufficient, it was incomplete, and so, cannot keep you saved. In order for it to be complete, to be fully efficacious, you must add your own "faith, obedience, and perseverance" to Christ's atonement on the cross. But nowhere does Scripture ever indicate this but, instead, confirms again and again, that Christ's atonement on the cross was perfect, once for all, entirely satisfying God's holy justice and needing no further contribution from us (He. 7-10:22; Ro. 5; 1 Pe. 1:1-8).


All of these passages were issued to Jews under the Old Covenant and thus according to the standards and means therein. For example, nowhere in the entire Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7 does Jesus ever speak of his atoning, reconciling, justifying work at Calvary, the indwelling and empowering Holy Spirit, or direct, personal adoption into God's family. He just sets out an impossible standard for the Old Covenant Jews, one they already knew they could never achieve, preparing them for the "new and living way" he would accomplish through himself at the cross. So its a non-starter to use the passages you have above as grounds for your works-salvation error. This is particularly evident in light of what Jesus said to the Twelve (or eleven, actually) in John 15:4-5. Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Ro. 8:9), no one can do anything - certainly not fulfill Matthew 5:48, which is the standard God has set out for all who would be His own.

I haven't time right now to deal with the rest of your post, but it suffers from similar issues of interpretation.

show me where Christ is expecting absolute perfection, you wont find this, if God gave us the ten commandments , the covenant also refereed as the Moral law it is because we can and should put them in application, do you expect a newborn child to be able to walk or play the piano at birth? do you think God does not know there is a learning curve to all this?

if you look at the commandments they are not a burden but they serve as a compass for us to know what is right and wrong, as simple as that. As well, Jesus did explain these commandments and how NOT to follo them like the pharisees but how to follow them properly, through Love, patience and commitment.

When we grow in the faith and get closer to God, it changes and transforms you gradually. Jesus did promise to send the Holy spirit to those who love him and believe in him.

I will wait for you to "" deal ""with my post in full before I continue and revise your personal interpretations.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Hi GA,

I just want you to know I noticed in your post, the one i replied to with the links that almost all if not all bible verses are from Paul, I know Christ did say quite a lot of things that are for us all, then why do you almost exclusively quote Paul and almost Never Christ? just curious.

Thanks - great question; I believe the wholesome words of Paul Came From His and my Saviour, Jesus Christ!:

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to Wholesome Words, even The​

Words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"​

(1 Timothy 6:3 AV)​

​

Amen.

 

[marks]

Exactly. But the eternal security crowd claims Judas was never saved to begin with.

They have to say that to protect their false teaching about salvation cannot be lost.

If they were honest about Judas, then they would have to admit that salvation can actually be lost and they just can't do that due to their pride. And so they hang on to their false doctrine so they don't look bad to others.

Do you then believe that Judas and the other disciples, including the 70 disciples that were also sent out working miracles, were all these regenerated prior to Jesus' death and resurrection in your view?

Much love!

 

[marks]

if you look at the commandments they are not a burden but they serve as a compass for us to know what is right and wrong, as simple as that.

No, I disagree.

This is what Paul writes concerning the Law of Moses:

2 Corinthians 3:5-11 KJV
5) Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The letter kills. The Law is a ministration of death, and a ministration of condemnation. It has no glory in comparison to the Spirit.

If you think to keep the Law, what it will give you is death and condemnation, and will rob you of the glory of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit gives life. So the question is . . . Are you going to attempt to follow the Law, or will you follow the Holy Spirit?

Much love!

 

[bro.tan]

1. No one is saying we do not have to live in sin
2. John said those born of God can not live in sin
3. do me a favor. read these passages that show the gospel from Paul and Jesus and tell me where works fall in place in getting saved. You keep posting descriptive passages. resolve your works based passages trying to make them required to be saved, and not the result of salvation. and these words of Jesus and Paul which teach otherwise


John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (no works)

John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)

John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)

John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)

John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)

John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)

EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)

eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)

rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)

Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)

2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED USthrough the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

Titus 1: 2 in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

this is what our faith is in, the grace and mercy of God. not our deeds.

All those verses are good, but there are things Jesus for the creation and there are things you have to do to get in the kingdom of God, period! Jesus said in (Matt. 16:24-27) (v.24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. That was the Lord’s burden, to die on the cross for the sins of man. Now as we read earlier every man must bear his own burden, and what is your burden? (v.25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. You must give up your life in this world; you must not get caught up in the cares of this world. You must bring forth-good fruits of faith by keeping God’s commandments, statues, and judgments. (v.26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Some of the great patriarchs in (Heb.11) gave up a lot, some even their lives in exchange for their soul. You see they had great faith (belief) that their souls (bodies) would be raised at the first resurrection. And some of you won’t even give up some of the littlest things like, going to church on Sunday, the pagan holidays of Christmas and Easter, praying to the Virgin Mary, I could go on and on. And most so-called Christians know these rituals have nothing to do with Jesus and the Bible, but a lot of work get put into them. But do they understand that they are offensive to God? Maybe it’s because they have more faith in man than God, maybe it’s because they fear how man is going to treat them, and don’t fear God. But listen up; (v.27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his holy angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Now these are the words of Jesus (the Son of man), you know the savior of the world. He said that when he comes he is going to judge every man according to his works. Don't be deceived thinking you all you need to do is have faith in the Lord and you will be saved?

People we must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous and the Saints from the Sinners. (Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved. Jesus says in (Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. You are supposed to glorify your Father in heaven, and let your light shine before men. And how do you do that? By having good works. Sometimes as a Christian you don’t have to say a word, people will see your works.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

All those verses are good, but there are things Jesus for the creation and there are things you have to do to get in the kingdom of God, period!

you failed the test. All those verses are not just good. they are set in stone.

The verses you keep posting CONTRADICT the verses I gave.

YOU have to solve the contradiction. I already have, by interpreting all the verses (the ones I give and the ones you give) so they agree.

You show me you can do that. or there is nothing further to discuss.

I have responded to your verses.. I gave you many, and this is the wrong answer and response to showing me those verses do not mean what they say

 

[Kokyu]

show me where Christ is expecting absolute perfection, you wont find this,

Matthew 5:48
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

do you expect a newborn child to be able to walk or play the piano at birth? do you think God does not know there is a learning curve to all this?

No, to your first question, here.

Yes, God understands we undergo a "learning curve" in walking with Him.

But God is only willing to give His adopted children the freedom to mature because they have, in Christ, met His standard of perfection. If they had not "put on Christ" (Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27), they would not be "clothed" in his perfection and thus made acceptable to God. In Christ, the saved person is fully redeemed, justified and sanctified (1 Co. 1:30; Tit. 3:5-7; Ro. 3:21-25) and so, God adopts them as His own. On no other basis does God do this. There is only one Savior, only one Lamb of God who perfectly satisfied "once for all" His holy justice and righteous wrath (Jn. 14:6; Ac. 4:12; He. 7-10:22; 2 Co. 5:21) and only by being "in him" are we reconciled to God.

By yourself, you have NOTHING to offer to God. Prior to being born-again by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3-7), you are the person described in Ephesians 2:1-3, Titus 3:3, Romans 5:6 and Colossians 1:21 - as are we all. And so, there is nothing you can contribute to your salvation, nothing you can do to make it better, to make it more secure. Thinking that there is some contribution you must make to keep your salvation is, as I said, a kind of blasphemy because in thinking you can add to Christ's saving work at the cross you diminish him and his work and elevate yourself to co-Savior with him. But as Paul wrote to Timothy,

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

if you look at the commandments they are not a burden but they serve as a compass for us to know what is right and wrong, as simple as that.

God's commandments are a BIG burden to those who don't know and love Christ. And this is why God - that is, Jesus Christ - distills His commandments down to just two commandments: Love God above all with all of who you are and love others as you love yourself (Mat. 22:36-39). Only when we are obeying the First and Great Commandment are we actually obeying all the others (1 Co. 13:1-3).

As well, Jesus did explain these commandments and how NOT to follo them like the pharisees but how to follow them properly, through Love, patience and commitment.

We are able to "follow them" in the way God intends we should only when the Holy Spirit is giving us both the desire and the ability to do so (Phil. 2:12-13; 4:13; Eph. 3:16; 6:10; 2 Co. 3:18; Ga. 5:22-23, etc.). Trying in our own strength to be godly is a project doomed to failure. Only God can make us who He wants us to be, only He can make us godly. We can only produce more of ourselves.

When we grow in the faith and get closer to God, it changes and transforms you gradually. Jesus did promise to send the Holy spirit to those who love him and believe in him.

Yes, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Ro. 8:9; Phil. 1:19), is the One who gives to us the life of Christ, and in so doing making us "new creatures" in him (2 Co. 5:17). If we aren't indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus "born-again" by him, we aren't saved (Jn. 3:3-7; 1 Jn. 5:11-12; Tit. 3:5-7; 1 Jn. 4:13; Ro. 8:9-14, etc.). But if he is dwelling within us, God is as close to us as He can be.

I will wait for you to "" deal ""with my post in full before I continue and revise your personal interpretations.

I know its important for you to dismiss my words to you as just "personal interpretations." Doing so makes it easy to be dismissive of what I've pointed out to you. But you have yet to show from the texts of the passages in question how my "personal interpretation" does any violence to the passages, contorting or denying what they say, or ignoring vital context in which they're said, as your view does.

Do you really want to know what is true? Are you willing to set aside your preconceptions, prejudices and fears to discover the Truth? If not, you will never find the Truth. I've been studying, discovering and testing my understanding of God's Truth for decades, searching out well-studied challenge and criticism in order to see if what I understand of God's Truth holds up under pressure. And it does. But in the process of this testing I've had to let false ideas go, sometimes abandoning whole systematics of thought on Christian doctrine, and accept correction and thereby find the freedom, joy and light of God's Truth and of God Himself, the Author of that Truth. How about you? Do you want to know Him well and thus come to enjoy Him fully, or just defend pet doctrine?

 

[Kokyu]

Mark​

Mark 10:29-30: "Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake and the gospel's, but he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."Jesus promises blessings and eternal life to those who forsake everything for His sake, but this is framed within the context of following Him faithfully. The implication is that salvation is not an automatic guarantee but is tied to the continual choice to prioritize the Kingdom of God, even in the face of persecution. This passage highlights that salvation is a journey that requires steadfast commitment, not a one-time event.

Mark 10:25-31
25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?"
27 Looking at them, Jesus *said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

The disciples of Jesus were astonished that riches would hinder entering God's kingdom - so much so that they ask Jesus the question they did in verse 26. Perhaps they assumed that riches were a token of divine favor, as the faithful law-keeping Rich Young Ruler seemed to demonstrate (vs. 19-20). Whatever the case, Christ's disciples were shocked by Christ's description of how difficult it was for the rich to enter God's kingdom.

In response, Jesus corrects his disciples' thinking by telling them that being saved was not possible "with people" - that is, no person could, by dint of their own effort, by their careful law-keeping, be saved. But "with God" salvation was entirely possible because, for the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of Everything, "all things are possible." Here, Jesus clearly locates the power for salvation in God, not Man. As the Rich Young Ruler had just demonstrated, mere careful law-keeping was not enough to be saved. God looks not on the outward appearance, but upon the heart (1 Sam. 16:7; Jn. 7:24) and this is where the RYR failed, his heart a prisoner to his wealth and so, unable to yield to God.

28 Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."
29 Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake,
30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
31 "But many who are first will be last, and the last, first."

Peter seems not to have heard Jesus, and proceeds to argue for his own entrance into God's kingdom on the basis of his having given up everything to follow Jesus. He describes himself as the opposite of the RYR, having no riches whatever (and thus a shoo-in to God's kingdom). Peter's thinking seems to have been that if being rich made it as difficult to enter heaven as a "camel going through the eye of a needle," then being without riches meant one would get in for sure. But this ignored what Jesus had just said about how a person could be saved: "with people it is impossible." Peter seems not to have comprehended that salvation was not located in the person needing to be saved, in their economic condition, or careful law-keeping, but in the power of God to save.

Peter also seems to have been implying that his having given up all to follow Jesus obligated God to accept him into His kingdom. Peter had, after all, done what the RYR could not and this, surely, meant he would get into heaven. But Jesus replies to this by saying that God is no man's debtor. Any sacrifice a person may make for Christ's sake on this side of the grave would be rewarded a hundred-fold on the other.

In none of this do I see any indication that salvation is made contingent upon a person's actions. In fact, the passage appears to me to indicate just the opposite, putting salvation squarely in God's hands (vs. 27), not in the hands of the one seeking to be saved, ruling out external obedience to God's commands as a means of entering into His eternal kingdom.

 

[Kokyu]

Luke​

Luke 12:41-46: "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him... and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers."This passage warns of the consequences for a servant who was entrusted with responsibility but failed to act faithfully. The servant’s eventual fate is to be cast out among the "unbelievers." This suggests that even those who have once been part of the household of faith can lose their place in God’s Kingdom if they abandon their responsibilities or live wickedly.Luke 9:23-26: "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me... For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?"Jesus underscores the importance of daily self-denial and commitment to following Him. The phrase "be cast away" carries strong implications for the possibility of losing salvation. The warning against prioritizing worldly gain over eternal life reinforces the conditional nature of salvation.

Luke 12:35-48
35 "Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit.
36 "Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.
37 "Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.
38 "Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.
39 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
40 "You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect."
41 Peter said, "Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?"
42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?
43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
44 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
45 "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

First of all, there is no mention whatever in this passage of anyone being of the "household of faith." There is no remark on the second birth, or on the indwelling Holy Spirit, or on redemption and justification through the shed blood of Christ, all of which are vital aspects of being in the "household of faith." Instead, Jesus spoke only of outward actions: being "dressed in readiness" and "keeping one's lamp lit" (vs. 35); being ready to immediately open the door to the knocking of the Master (vs. 36); being ready to wait on the Master at any hour (vs. 37-38); giving fellow servants their "rations at the proper time" (vs. 42). This sort of good servant Jesus contrasts with the evil servant who is abusive to fellow servants, and careless of his Master's return, serving only his own fleshly desires (vs. 45). This wretched servant the Master will punish with terrible severity (vs. 46-47).

At the end of the passage, Jesus remarks that an ignorant servant, one who did not know his Master's will and therefore did not do it, would receive only a few lashes (vs. 47). This suggests that God's punishment of the wicked will take into account their knowledge of His Truth, those ignorant of it receiving lesser punishment than those who were not ignorant of it. He then points out that those who are given much will be required to give much in turn. Inasmuch as this statement was given to his disciples, Jesus' point is clear: They had been given much from their Master (Jesus) and from them much would then be expected.

Where in all of this is the doctrine of salvation-lost described? Jesus was speaking to Jews within an Old Covenant context, saying nothing of his atoning work on the cross, of the need for redemption and reconciliation with God through himself, of the spiritual regeneration of the lost person by the Holy Spirit, and so on. Jesus spoke only of servant to Master, not child to Father (Ro. 8:15). He spoke, not of obedience out of love for God (Matt. 22:36-38; 1 Co. 13:1-3; 1 Jn. 4:16-19), but of obedience out of fear of terrible punishment. But he would do since he was speaking to Jews according to the Old Covenant, their outward obedience keeping them from the Master's wrath rather than the saving work of the Lamb of God (Jn. 1:29; 2 Co. 5:21) transforming their fundamental nature (2 Co. 5:17).

 

[Kokyu]

John​

While the Gospel of John emphasizes faith as the means by which believers receive eternal life, it also highlights the necessity of remaining in Christ to maintain that life.

John 15:6: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."In this metaphor, Jesus compares Himself to the vine and His followers to the branches. Those who do not remain connected to Him are cast out and burned. This is a clear indication that salvation is not guaranteed unconditionally; if one fails to abide in Christ, they risk being "cut off" and losing their salvation.Rev 3:3 Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you.4 But you do have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments, and because they are worthy, they will walk with Me in white.5 Like them, he who overcomes will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.This verse directly implies that names can indeed be "blotted out" of the Book of Life if one fails to overcome. The act of "overcoming" suggests active perseverance in faith, and the warning that one’s name can be erased reinforces the conditional nature of salvation.

John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Verse 2 mistranslates the Greek word airo, rendering it "takes away" when, in fact, it should be translated "lifts up," as was the common viticultural practice of the time (See: Pliny the Younger) and is the root meaning of airo, as well as being the way the word is translated in various other places in the New Testament (Matt. 9:6; 16:24; Mk. 13:16, etc.). This verse, then, does not threaten the loss of one's salvation but actually indicates the opposite, promising that God will lift up unfruitful branches so that they are better able to produce fruit. This is exactly what the caretakers of first-century vineyards did as a common practice, raising up onto wooden supports branches that were not fruiting, removing them from the shade, pests and dampness of ground-level.

It's to his own disciples that Jesus is speaking so why would he tell them to abide in himself? They were closer to him than any others, physically and relationally, were they not? And what would they make of the idea that they should be "in him"? A branch is physically connected to the vine from which it is growing, deriving all of its life from the vine. How could the disciples be like this relative to their Master-Teacher? Even figuratively, the metaphor would have been baffling, Jesus saying nothing of the indwelling Holy Spirit and how he would impart to them his life (Col. 3:4; Jn. 1:4; 14:6; Ro. 8:9). How were the disciples to connect to Jesus so fundamentally and intimately? Well, they wouldn't be able to do so until the Comforter/Helper came upon them, indwelling them permanently and spiritually-regenerating them.

So, then, it appears to me that Jesus was telling his disciples in the passage above that they needed to be saved, just like every other person needs to be. Only by being saved, by being indwelt by the Spirit, could they "abide in Christ." As Paul wrote, "If any have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Ro. 8:9). But not until Jesus had made his atonement for sin at Calvary would it be possible for them to truly abide in him as redeemed, justified, sanctified and adopted children of God.

Verse 5 is simply a contrast to the Christ-abiding person, the saved person, describing the one who is not saved, who is not abiding in Christ. The verse is not describing a person who was saved and now is not, and nothing in the passage obliges any reader of the verse to think that it is. "If anyone does not abide in me" is just a way of saying "if anyone is not saved." So, then, I don't see that this passage is teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine at all.

I've run out of time to write more in response to your proof-texts. Perhaps later.

 

[LoveYeshua]

No, I disagree.

This is what Paul writes concerning the Law of Moses:

2 Corinthians 3:5-11 KJV
5) Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The letter kills. The Law is a ministration of death, and a ministration of condemnation. It has no glory in comparison to the Spirit.

If you think to keep the Law, what it will give you is death and condemnation, and will rob you of the glory of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit gives life. So the question is . . . Are you going to attempt to follow the Law, or will you follow the Holy Spirit?

Much love!

I know it needs a different interpretations than the one commonly sought that the commandments are obsolete and not necessary. Paul here is not saying following the commandments is the ministry of death but rather the strict observance of them as defined by the pharisees was to blame, this way if we look at what Paul was writing with the lens of Christ teaching, it then corresponds to the teaching of our lord Jesus Christ.

we page to remember Paul was very knowledgeable with scripture and was thought by Gamaliel an expert in scripture, paul also used a particular way of writing his texts to attract attention, we have to be careful in interpretating paul, so when we see "ministry of death" he is not speaking aainst the commandments but the improper rigid, without mercy way of following them, also we have to remember that the pharisees twisted the laws and added quite a lot to the commandments and the laws of Mosesin to such an extent that it truly became a burden.

also remember Jeremiah! chapter 32 verses 31-33. Living the commandments through the Holy Spirit and no longer through the letters of the commandments as they are now in out minds and hearts.

 

[LoveYeshua]

you failed the test. All those verses are not just good. they are set in stone.

The verses you keep posting CONTRADICT the verses I gave.

YOU have to solve the contradiction. I already have, by interpreting all the verses (the ones I give and the ones you give) so they agree.

You show me you can do that. or there is nothing further to discuss.

I have responded to your verses.. I gave you many, and this is the wrong answer and response to showing me those verses do not mean what they say

maybe You have to solve these contradiction, there is only One truth! and only Jesus can save us and no one else.

 

[LoveYeshua]

show me where Christ is expecting absolute perfection, you wont find this,

Matthew 5:48
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. ]

true

do you expect a newborn child to be able to walk or play the piano at birth? do you think God does not know there is a learning curve to all this?

No, to your first question, here.

Yes, God understands we undergo a "learning curve" in walking with Him.

But God is only willing to give His adopted children the freedom to mature because they have, in Christ, met His standard of perfection. If they had not "put on Christ" (Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27), they would not be "clothed" in his perfection and thus made acceptable to God. In Christ, the saved person is fully redeemed, justified and sanctified (1 Co. 1:30; Tit. 3:5-7; Ro. 3:21-25) and so, God adopts them as His own. On no other basis does God do this. There is only one Savior, only one Lamb of God who perfectly satisfied "once for all" His holy justice and righteous wrath (Jn. 14:6; Ac. 4:12; He. 7-10:22; 2 Co. 5:21) and only by being "in him" are we reconciled to God.

By yourself, you have NOTHING to offer to God. Prior to being born-again by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3-7), you are the person described in Ephesians 2:1-3, Titus 3:3, Romans 5:6 and Colossians 1:21 - as are we all. And so, there is nothing you can contribute to your salvation, nothing you can do to make it better, to make it more secure. Thinking that there is some contribution you must make to keep your salvation is, as I said, a kind of blasphemy because in thinking you can add to Christ's saving work at the cross you diminish him and his work and elevate yourself to co-Savior with him. But as Paul wrote to Timothy,

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

I disagree we can contribute to our salvation as it is a choice we have to make and many do not believe in what Christ said and will not listen to him! they know about Christ but do not belong to Him thay are not ons of his sheep.

if you look at the commandments they are not a burden but they serve as a compass for us to know what is right and wrong, as simple as that.

God's commandments are a BIG burden to those who don't know and love Christ.

the bible teaches the are NOT a burden

And this is why God - that is, Jesus Christ - distills His commandments down to just two commandments: Love God above all with all of who you are and love others as you love yourself (Mat. 22:36-39). Only when we are obeying the First and Great Commandment are we actually obeying all the others (1 Co. 13:1-3).
FALSE!
Jesus did teach the commandments and magnified them see the rich young leadet that asled jesus what to do to have eternal life, jesus replied if you want to enter into life, follow the commandments. He then enumerated some of them, are you one of those who will not believe in what he said?

As well, Jesus did explain these commandments and how NOT to follo them like the pharisees but how to follow them properly, through Love, patience and commitment.

We are able to "follow them" in the way God intends we should only when the Holy Spirit is giving us both the desire and the ability to do so

YES

Trying in our own strength to be godly is a project doomed to failure. Only God can make us who He wants us to be, only He can make us godly.
YES if you listen cafefully and do as Jesus asked, do not rely on your own interpretation, Jesus said exactly what to do, just follow His words and act upon them

When we grow in the faith and get closer to God, it changes and transforms you gradually. Jesus did promise to send the Holy spirit to those who love him and believe in him.

Yes, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Ro. 8:9; Phil. 1:19), is the One who gives to us the life of Christ, and in so doing making us "new creatures" in him (2 Co. 5:17). If we aren't indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus "born-again" by him, we aren't saved (Jn. 3:3-7; 1 Jn. 5:11-12; Tit. 3:5-7; 1 Jn. 4:13; Ro. 8:9-14, etc.). But if he is dwelling within us, God is as close to us as He can be.

AGREED

I will wait for you to "" deal ""with my post in full before I continue and revise your personal interpretations.

I know its important for you to dismiss my words to you as just "personal interpretations." Doing so makes it easy to be dismissive of what I've pointed out to you. But you have yet to show from the texts of the passages in question how my "personal interpretation" does any violence to the passages, contorting or denying what they say, or ignoring vital context in which they're said, as your view does.

not what i am doing, you interpret the words of paul improperly and many do. thay have to say the same thing as Christ or thay cannot be valid. the servant (paul) is never greater than hid master ( Jesus)

Do you really want to know what is true? Are you willing to set aside your preconceptions, prejudices and fears to discover the Truth? If not, you will never find the Truth. I've been studying, discovering and testing my understanding of God's Truth for decades,

me too for decades

searching out well-studied challenge and criticism in order to see if what I understand of God's Truth holds up under pressure. And it does. But in the process of this testing I've had to let false ideas go, sometimes abandoning whole systematics of thought on Christian doctrine, and accept correction and thereby find the freedom, joy and light of God's Truth and of God Himself, the Author of that Truth. How about you? Do you want to know Him well and thus come to enjoy Him fully, or just defend pet doctrine?

The only doctrine I follow are through the words of Christ alone, his words are precise, deep in meaning and at the same time simple enough that a child can understand, except for some parables but Jesus did say why some of them are difficult to understant, there is a purpose for this.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Mark 10:25-31
25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?"
27 Looking at them, Jesus *said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

The disciples of Jesus were astonished that riches would hinder entering God's kingdom - so much so that they ask Jesus the question they did in verse 26. Perhaps they assumed that riches were a token of divine favor, as the faithful law-keeping Rich Young Ruler seemed to demonstrate (vs. 19-20). Whatever the case, Christ's disciples were shocked by Christ's description of how difficult it was for the rich to enter God's kingdom.

Simply put the rich steal to get there generally and never help the poor, they breal almost all the commendments simultaneously!

In response, Jesus corrects his disciples' thinking by telling them that being saved was not possible "with people" - that is, no person could, by dint of their own effort, by their careful law-keeping, be saved. But "with God" salvation

WHAT IS GOD"S SALVATION? Lets discuss the implications.

was entirely possible because, for the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of Everything, "all things are possible." Here,

Yes agree All is Possible to the Lord but know this, it is a choice thae ids put before us and one must take the right path!

Jesus clearly locates the power for salvation in God, not Man. As the Rich Young Ruler had just demonstrated, mere careful law-keeping was not enough to be saved.

NOTE HERE being a rich person does not make you a follower of the law, the poor were everywhere in Jesusalem at that time and all these rich never lift a finger to help anyone! Still the same today!

God looks not on the outward appearance, but upon the heart (1 Sam. 16:7; Jn. 7:24) and this is where the RYR failed, his heart a prisoner to his wealth and so, unable to yield to God.

Could yeald but made the wrong choice! definitrly thr wrong choice it is evident!

28 Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."
29 Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake,
30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
31 "But many who are first will be last, and the last, first."

Peter seems not to have heard Jesus, and proceeds to argue for his own entrance into God's kingdom on the basis of his having given up everything to follow Jesus. He describes himself as the opposite of the RYR, having no riches whatever (and thus a shoo-in to God's kingdom). Peter's thinking seems to have been that if being rich made it as difficult to enter heaven as a "camel going through the eye of a needle," then being without riches meant one would get in for sure. But this ignored what Jesus had just said about how a person could be saved: "with people it is impossible." Peter seems not to have comprehended that salvation was not located in the person needing to be saved, in their economic condition, or careful law-keeping, but in the power of God to save.

Peter also seems to have been implying that his having given up all to follow Jesus obligated God to accept him into His kingdom. Peter had, after all, done what the RYR could not and this, surely, meant he would get into heaven. But Jesus replies to this by saying that God is no man's debtor. Any sacrifice a person may make for Christ's sake on this side of the grave would be rewarded a hundred-fold on the other.

Peter’s statement was an honest reflection on the cost of discipleship and a veiled question about its reward.
Jesus’ answer reassures that no sacrifice for Him goes unnoticed—there are blessings both now (in community and purpose) and in eternity, but also challenges. And, God’s way of rewarding people may surprise us.

In none of this do I see any indication that salvation is made contingent upon a person's actions. In fact, the passage appears to me to indicate just the opposite, putting salvation squarely in God's hands (vs. 27), not in the hands of the one seeking to be saved, ruling out external obedience to God's commands as a means of entering into His eternal kingdom.

Of course IT IS CONTINGENT to a persons action, GOD does put these choices in life in front of us always. when we decide to walk with the lord and persevere in his ways until the end then we shall be saved

 

[LoveYeshua]

John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Verse 2 mistranslates the Greek word airo, rendering it "takes away" when, in fact, it should be translated "lifts up," as was the common viticultural practice of the time (See: Pliny the Younger) and is the root meaning of airo, as well as being the way the word is translated in various other places in the New Testament (Matt. 9:6; 16:24; Mk. 13:16, etc.). This verse, then, does not threaten the loss of one's salvation but actually indicates the opposite, promising that God will lift up unfruitful branches so that they are better able to produce fruit. This is exactly what the caretakers of first-century vineyards did as a common practice, raising up onto wooden supports branches that were not fruiting, removing them from the shade, pests and dampness of ground-level.

It's to his own disciples that Jesus is speaking so why would he tell them to abide in himself? They were closer to him than any others, physically and relationally, were they not? And what would they make of the idea that they should be "in him"? A branch is physically connected to the vine from which it is growing, deriving all of its life from the vine. How could the disciples be like this relative to their Master-Teacher? Even figuratively, the metaphor would have been baffling, Jesus saying nothing of the indwelling Holy Spirit and how he would impart to them his life (Col. 3:4; Jn. 1:4; 14:6; Ro. 8:9). How were the disciples to connect to Jesus so fundamentally and intimately? Well, they wouldn't be able to do so until the Comforter/Helper came upon them, indwelling them permanently and spiritually-regenerating them.

So, then, it appears to me that Jesus was telling his disciples in the passage above that they needed to be saved, just like every other person needs to be. Only by being saved, by being indwelt by the Spirit, could they "abide in Christ." As Paul wrote, "If any have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Ro. 8:9). But not until Jesus had made his atonement for sin at Calvary would it be possible for them to truly abide in him as redeemed, justified, sanctified and adopted children of God.

Verse 5 is simply a contrast to the Christ-abiding person, the saved person, describing the one who is not saved, who is not abiding in Christ. The verse is not describing a person who was saved and now is not, and nothing in the passage obliges any reader of the verse to think that it is. "If anyone does not abide in me" is just a way of saying "if anyone is not saved." So, then, I don't see that this passage is teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine at all.

I've run out of time to write more in response to your proof-texts. Perhaps later.

same here way too long However I see where our differences lies, you interpret everything through the lenz of Paul' words, I see everything theourh the words of Jesus and only Him. this is why we mignt never agree.

 

[marks]

I know it needs a different interpretations than the one commonly sought that the commandments are obsolete and not necessary.

Romans 7:1-6 KJV
1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The way God teaches us is that returning to the Law is like a married woman leaving her husband to go be with her previous dead husband.

Much love!

 

[LoveYeshua]

Thanks - great question; I believe the wholesome words of Paul Came From His and my Saviour, Jesus Christ!:

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to Wholesome Words, even The​

Words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"​

(1 Timothy 6:3 AV)​

​

Amen.

I agree but also take this opportunity to tell people that it is always a good Idea to verify all interpretations of all scripture and from any teacher or preacher and BE CERTAIN they align with the words of out Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings

 

[marks]

Matthew 5:48
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. ]

This is in context of loving others, that we do so equally as God does.

Matthew 5:43-48 KJV
43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I agree but also take this opportunity to tell people that it is always a good Idea to verify all interpretations of all scripture and from any teacher or preacher and BE CERTAIN they align with the words of out Lord Jesus Christ.

It sounds as though you hold Paul's writings as somehow "less than" the Gospels, is that how you think of them?

Much love!