Is it possible to lose salvation?

[GodsGrace]

Christianity is defined by the scriptures, not by the churches. But if it is by the churches, pray tell which of the 2,000+ denominations teaches the truth?

LOL
Churches are supposed to be teaching the truth.
I went to 3.
Catholic
Nazarene
A of G

I found that they basically taught the same soteriology.
All 3 taught belief in Jesus for salvation.
All 3 taught obedience to God.
All 3 taught that salvation can be forfeited.
All 3 taught that we should be baptized.
All 3 taught that we sin and should ask forgiveness.

There's probably more but that comes to mind.

Well, references the 2,000+ different denominations I mentioned, somewhere along the line the teaching of Jesus went AWOL. Among those teachings is with whom God made covenants.

God made Covenants with Israel...I said this.
But the NC is for everyone...but I'm not here to try to convince you.

I believe Jeremiah 31:31.

Where does the Bible say say God made a covenant with Christians?

Every nations is mentioned in the Abrahamic Covenant.

Paul used the word "covenant" 3 times.

Rom 11:26-27,

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:​

​

27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.​

Who is them? Verse 26 says Israel.

The other 2 usages are Gal 3:15 & 17. The context there is Paul calling the Galatians fools for thinking they could be made perfect by following the law, which law was part of the covenant God made with Israel at Mount Sinai.


Ask your pastor about the mystery that was hidden in God until He revealed it to Paul. That is what defines our relationship to God.

Don't have a pastor.
I know a few priests however.
A couple peronally...friends of the family.
And a monk that knows everything !
All he does is study.
Joined a group he had..a small group, maybe 15...for about 10 years or more.
Never discussed the Covenants.

All God asked of us was to confess with our mouth the lord Jesus and believe He raised him from among the dead (Rom 10:9). It says if we do that we are saved. We become God's sons and daughters by seed, i.e. a new birth.

No Paul was not wrong. We are grafted in, not by covenant, but by the mystery that was hidden in God until He revealed it to Paul.

What are we grafted in to?

Why do you ignore to whom God spoke in Jeremiah? It's pretty clear

Never said otherwise.

I DID mention that Jeremiah, in his prophecies, was most probably speaking about Jerusalem in 70AD...
but I really cannot get into that...

That was very true under law, which law was in effect until the day of Pentecost

I mentioned Matthew 5:20
WHAT was very true under the law?
Jesus did not teach the law....the Law of Moses, I mean.
Jesus taught the NC law.

Can we agree that, as I said, the law was still in effect when Jesus spoke those words? The law was part of the old covenant God made with Israel.

Jesus came to fulfill the law
NOT enforce it.
He came to CHANGE The Law.
I posted some of Matthew 5...will not repeat since it's obvious you don't care to discuss.

Jesus said HE is the door through which the sheep must enter.
Others come to kill and destroy.

Getting late...
'night

 

[GodsGrace]

How should I take it? Like there's some secret meaning that only "the initiated" know? If I want to take it symbolically, I could say that Jeremiah meant that heaven is on Mars, and we're all going there. I mean, who holds the "key" to the "secret meaning?"

A lot of assumptions there.

Almost hate to say it again, but Jesus was speaking to Jews during the law. I'm not sure why that's so complicated.

I'm signing off.
One last thing:
What was Jesus telling the Jews that was NOT meant for Christians?
Thanks.

 

[Rich R]

PS
We SHOULD have a healthy fear of satan.
I think you misunderstood.
Satan is the cause of misery...and we should fear him.
We are not immune to his doings.
There were two terrible car accidents here by me...one in my small town
and one on the way to the city, 20 minutes south.
Certainly, God did not cause them,,,but the one who prowls.

God assures us that we are more than conquerors (Rom 8:37). So we should always keep that in mind when the devil attacks.

I'm glad you know that God didn't cause the accidents. I just spoke to a brother who told me the death of his friend in an automobile accident was God's will. What was the devil doing why God supposedly killed his friend? Was he cheering God on, saying, "You get that guy and get him good!"

I cringe when I hear a pastor tell a couple who recently lost an infant that it was God's will and that He wanted another flower in heaven. What's the difference between saying that, and saying, "God murdered your baby because His garden was getting a bit bare?"

 

[Rich R]

I'm signing off.
One last thing:
What was Jesus telling the Jews that was NOT meant for Christians?
Thanks.

Pluck out your eye if it causes you to offend. Cut off your hand if that offends you. How about, thinking evil about someone is the same as murder? Since Jesus was obligated to observe all the Jewish feasts, why don't we? There's a bunch of things like that if you think about it.

 

[GodsGrace]

God assures us that we are more than conquerors (Rom 8:37). So we should always keep that in mind when the devil attacks.

Yes. Never give satan the victory.

I'm glad you know that God didn't cause the accidents. I just spoke to a brother who told me the death of his friend in an automobile accident was God's will. What was the devil doing why God supposedly killed his friend? Was he cheering God on, saying "You get that guy and get him good!"

I cringe when I hear a pastor tell a couple who recently lost an infant that it was God's will and that He wanted another flower in heaven. What's the difference between saying that, and saying, "God murdered your baby because His garden was getting a bit bare?"

Agreed.
At a death, most especially that of a child,,,probably the best thing to do is be quiet and listen, and say as little as possible.
No one can know what the person is going through..we're all different...let alone the death of a child.
What one thinks are encouraging words, could be devastating to the mourner.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pluck out your eye if it causes you to offend. Cut off your hand if that offends you. How about, thinking evil about someone is the same as murder? Since Jesus was obligated to observe all the Jewish feasts, why don't we? There's a bunch of things like that if you think about it.

Will mull it over...the first two, however, are not meant literally - not even for the Jews.
(maybe for muslims....)

 

[Rich R]

Yes. Never give satan the victory.

Agreed.
At a death, most especially that of a child,,,probably the best thing to do is be quiet and listen, and say as little as possible.
No one can know what the person is going through..we're all different...let alone the death of a child.
What one thinks are encouraging words, could be devastating to the mourner.

It might be comforting to remind the grieving parents that Jesus will raise their child in the end. But, as you said, it might be best to just let them cry on your shoulder.

 

[Rich R]

Will mull it over...the first two, however, are not meant literally - not even for the Jews.
(maybe for muslims....)

True. I may have been exaggerating!

 

[nedsk]

If I have not heard of the man or read his doctrine and you are saying,

Of course you aren't which is why you're so blissfully ignorant of the history of your own belief system.

You are speaking of my own belief system which you cannot provide but accuse me of

Well you should be interested since it was a man that has led you and millions upon millions of others into the heresies that you are so blissfully ignorant of but cling to as if your next breath depended on it.

So its a heresy that I am blissfully ignorant of (but you are "in the know" on) concerning my own heresy, but cannot provide proof of me spreading this heresy?

Well he deluded you and most of the people you know I suspect. It's your decision but you are direct result of the heresy that Luther brought into the world.

So my life is somehow intricately bound togther with this man who died 500 years before I was born?

You're his disciple.

That would be Jesus, I don't know this other fellow

you believe is a perversion of the truth perpetrated on millions upon millions of people since the 1500s by Martin Luther.

And I supposedly believe in a perversion of the truth you accuse me of while never once quoting me on anything I have said. That's convenient.

It would probably be more fruitful if we did not discuss things hereon out, I am not the better for engaging in this conversation with you.

Your blindness is your burden not mine. Good luck to you. Ateast you'll have lots of company

 

[nedsk]

What do you think the other poster states that is wrong??
I haven't heard anything.

He's right.
There's so much twisting of scripture going on - it makes me dizzy.
And, it's getting worse.

Now, I believe you're Catholic and I agree that the CC is the original church and I respect
the EARLY Catholic church for keeping the faith pure, rejecting gnostic beliefs, and getting the NT writings
into one book.

But it went astary and we won't get into that.
The Reformation was needed but it created a mess too.
If we all would just plainly read the NT and not add anything to it,
we'd still have the original beliefs by the ECF's.

Here's the thing. If someone writes, "The apple is red" do you think its safe to assume the apple is red? For days now I've pointed out the clear obvious and explicit words of James that say, you see that a man is saved by works and not by faith alone but I'm told no that's not the case. To ask me what that poster got wrong is preposterous if you've read just one page of this thread.

As for Luther what was needed was reform not the formation. The early church Father's never taught OSAS, sola fide or sola scriptura. They taught infant baptism and the necessity of baptism for salvation. They taught that bishops led the local churches and they taught the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. One church still believes all that.

 

[nedsk]

And yet the reformation, with its faults, was necessary.

I assume I don't have to list the fallacies of the RCC back then, and some still present today.

Reform was necessary not reformation. They aren't the same. Show where the early church church fathers taught OSAS or either of the solas. Start by defending what you believe rather then pointing a finger. The earliest days of the church were Catholic. Period. And little if any of that exists in protestant world today.

The RCC and tons of protestants have led this people astray .
Bible time .

 

[nedsk]

The RCC and tons of protestants have led this people astray .
Bible time .

The bible speaks against you.

 

[complete]

Hello @Truly,

I have no idea why you are being targeted, not having read your previous posts. It should not be necessary to resort to personal attack, and I am sorry that you have become the victim of it. If an example were posted, then a defence could be made, but it is all conjectural it seems.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head
Chris

 

[ProDeo]

Reform was necessary not reformation. They aren't the same. Show where the early church church fathers taught OSAS or either of the solas. Start by defending what you believe rather then pointing a finger. The earliest days of the church were Catholic. Period. And little if any of that exists in protestant world today.

Sure, the first centuries after Christ were good, thereafter things got very wrong. As of today the RCC is still praying to Mary. Please keep the balance when you judge.

 

[complete]

Subject Heading:- 'Is It Possible To Lose Salvation'.

'But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus,
Who of God is made unto us
wisdom, and righteousness,
and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written,
He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.'
(1Cor. 1:30-31)

Salvation is of God in Christ Jesus, therefore cannot be lost. For we are His workmanship.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Taken]

Is it possible to lose salvation?

Yes.

Salvation IS a Gift, bought, paid for, Offered by God, (To All men, by, through, of, Christ the Lord ) For men TO reach out and TAKE.

Don’t Reach out and TAKE the Offered Gift?
You do Not have / possess the Gift.

Thus, Christ the Lord Shall Not account you Having the Gift, being received, From Him.
Thus, Christ the Lord Shall Not have you accounted For the Lord to Claim/Redeem/ Take “you”, unto Himself…at the Time of the “Rapture”.

Not to undermine God, WHO, He Himself Offered Salvation to human men, Long Before Christ the Lord Jesus and His Offering, Way, Means was Revealed …

From… Beginning to Ending of Man-KIND…(with or without the mans “oral confession of Belief IN God Almighty)…
God Shall search “the mans HEARTS TRUE Belief), as the mans Natural Life IS Dying…
Should that mans Hearts True Belief… BE / HAVE True Heartful Belief “IN Almighty God.”
* God Shall Save that mans soul/ raise it to Heaven.
* God Shall Quicken that mans spirit.
* God shall Raise that mans body in Glory,
During Gods First Resurrection.

God Saves During a mans natural Bodily Death.
Christ the Lord Saves After a Confession and bodily Crucifixion With Jesus Body, and that man, Lives IN Jesus’ Risen Body, until his OWN Body is “Redeemed “raptured”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[David Lamb]

Is it possible to lose salvation?

Yes.

Salvation IS a Gift, bought, paid for, Offered by God, (To All men, by, through, of, Christ the Lord ) For men TO reach out and TAKE.

Don’t Reach out and TAKE the Offered Gift?
You do Not have / possess the Gift.

Thus, Christ the Lord Shall Not account you Having the Gift, being received, From Him.
Thus, Christ the Lord Shall Not have you accounted For the Lord to Claim/Redeem/ Take “you”, unto Himself…at the Time of the “Rapture”.

Not to undermine God, WHO, He Himself Offered Salvation to human men, Long Before Christ the Lord Jesus and His Offering, Way, Means was Revealed …

From… Beginning to Ending of Man-KIND…(with or without the mans “oral confession of Belief IN God Almighty)…
God Shall search “the mans HEARTS TRUE Belief), as the mans Natural Life IS Dying…
Should that mans Hearts True Belief… BE / HAVE True Heartful Belief “IN Almighty God.”
* God Shall Save that mans soul/ raise it to Heaven.
* God Shall Quicken that mans spirit.
* God shall Raise that mans body in Glory,
During Gods First Resurrection.

God Saves During a mans natural Bodily Death.
Christ the Lord Saves After a Confession and bodily Crucifixion With Jesus Body, and that man, Lives IN Jesus’ Risen Body, until his OWN Body is “Redeemed “raptured”.

Glory to God,
Taken

But becoming a Christian involves the new birth. Once we are born again, we cannot become "unborn."

 

[nedsk]

Sure, the first centuries after Christ were good, thereafter things got very wrong. As of today the RCC is still praying to Mary. Please keep the balance when you judge.

Wrong by your assessment. Lets be clear though whatever wrongs you think exist with the Catholic Church that doesn't make protestantism right. Just on the matter of the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist the Catholic Church is STILL teaching that as well as the other things they still teach that the fathers taught 2 millennia ago. You throw the baby out with the bath water. Also it's observation not judgment. In the earliest days of the church less and sola werent taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

But becoming a Christian involves the new birth. Once we are born again, we cannot become "unborn."

I hear this a lot David Lamb.
Doesn't mean much.
§First of all the term BORN AGAIN really isn't in the NT.
The term would be: BORN FROM ABOVE.

But no matter.

What YOU would have to do is post some scripture that states that once we become believers,,,we will be believers forever.

Jesus did not teach this and Paul did not teach this.

Jesus said some could believe for a while and then fall away.

Luke 8:13
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.


Paul said some could fall away:

1 Timothy 4.1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

 

[GodsGrace]

Here's the thing. If someone writes, "The apple is red" do you think its safe to assume the apple is red? For days now I've pointed out the clear obvious and explicit words of James that say, you see that a man is saved by works and not by faith alone but I'm told no that's not the case. To ask me what that poster got wrong is preposterous if you've read just one page of this thread.

Yeah..I can't read each and every post.
I've found that the other member has a good grasp of biblical knowledge.
Regarding James...I do believe that I agree with you.
Some do not read plainly what James is saying and put their own twist into it.
This should not be done.
What I like to say is that we are saved by faith ....
but if we want to stay saved, we'd better obey God so faith alone does not work and is not taught in the NT.

Unfortunately FAITH ALONE has taken on a meaning that means that all one has to have is faith WITH NOTHING ELSE, and he will be saved.
No one taught this...Not Jesus and not Paul.

I get discouraged at time....but we must continue to post what the NT teaches.
If others have a different view...then they must support that view with scripture -
so far, I've never seen any support in 10 years of posting.

As for Luther what was needed was reform not the formation.

Interesting concept.
I fully agree.

Some reform has taken place within the CC.
They're still offering indulgences although they're not being sold.
Still too much on Mary which leads some to worship her instead of venerate her...which is what the CC teaches.
It won't CORRECT what some do.
Won't get into too much detail.

The early church Father's never taught OSAS, sola fide or sola scriptura.

Correct.
100% agreed.
They also taught baptismal regeneration...
or, at least, that one must be baptized.

They taught infant baptism and the necessity of baptism for salvation.

Correct...this caused a problem but we won't get into it here.

They taught that bishops led the local churches and they taught the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. One church still believes all that.

I know.
I'll just say that no church is perfect...