Is it possible to lose salvation?

[Hazelelponi]

Paul tells us exactly from WHAT they are falling away...
from the faith.

When Paul says they “depart from the faith,” he’s telling us exactly what they fall away from — not saving faith itself, but the objective faith, the true religion once delivered to the saints.

In other words, they fall away from the Christian confession, the covenant community, and the truth they once professed — not from a saving union with Christ they never actually possessed.

---

 

[Christian Soldier]

To you. I get that. Well, it does, even to you, I think, but you've just made up your mind, and you're dug in on it, and that's that. Yeah, I get it.


Even though I've supported what I've said with Scripture extensively. Hm.


But all the exhortations to be baptized are for the men hearing, and for not only them, but to have their entire households baptized. And we know that God instituted the sacrament of circumcision, which was to be administered at eight days old (in Genesis 17) and that baptism in New Testament times has replaced circumcision as the sign and seal of the covenant (Colossians 2:11-12). And Jesus did tell his disciples to let the children come to Him...


You can if you want, certainly. <smile>


Well no... <smile>


I'm not. I didn't. Is that what you think I did? Really? Surely not...


Well, if that was what I had said, or if that was my opinion... you know, like if I really thought that, then... <smile> Yes, that would be quite ridiculous, I agree. <smile>


I... don't even know what you're talking about here. <smile> The sacrificial system? I mean yeah, that's surely no more...


Ah, well, you're right, of course, about Jesus, but really, CS, there is only one everlasting covenant, and Jesus is the perfect embodiment of it. All the old covenants (with Adam (covenant of life), Noah (covenant of liferemade), Abraham (land and a people), Moses (the law), and David (kingship) were lesser manifestations of it, and Jesus is the full manifestation of all the lesser covenants ~ He is the way, the truth, and the life and gives us eternal life in Him, we will be co-heirs of the world with Him and we are children of Abraham and of the promise like Isaac and thus God's people, and Jesus is the Greater David and our forever King. In a very small nutshell, this is Covenant theology (as opposed to Dispensational theology)...

Like I have said, the issue is not understanding ~ and disavowing, I guess ~ the continuity from the Old Testament to the New. And that's not to say that all the laws and other things (like circumcision) in the Old Testament still apply today. But there is a real continuity. Maybe a good way to put it is that the lesser truths of the Old Testament are greater,,, in the sense of final... today, the first example being... <smile> ...Jesus is the second Adam. He's also the true Lamb without blemish, which we read over and over and over about (in the lesser sense) in Leviticus. But on and on and on... Jesus is seen in various ways throughout the Old Testament.


Hmmm, okay, well, who do you think is under the covenant of grace, CS? How far back do you think it goes? I think I know what you're going to say here... <smile>


Right, we must be born again to see the Kingdom of God (John 3:8). But that surely does not mean that the commandments are defunct, right? And like I said before, the civil and ceremonial laws are no more, but the moral still stands. And again, Jesus is the perfect embodiment of it. And I pointed out what Jesus said in the gospels about the greatest commandment... to love the Lord your God) and the second that is like it; to love your neighbor as yourself... and that on those two commandments hang the entire law (Matthew 22:34-40)...


Um, well yeah, sure, I agree.

Race? Where did that come from? Goodness gracious.


<chuckles>


Ah, circumcision. I thought that was something you were... well, obsessing on, so to speak. Again, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying about it, and you're either not understanding... or just denying... what the Bible says about it, what it is. Or, sorry, what it was, because baptism has replaced it, as I said, as the sign and seal of the covenant... and therefore is to be administered (baptism) the same way as circumcision was. If it were not, there would be something... something... in the New Testament stating otherwise. But no, the promise ~ which baptism is the sign and seal of now, just as circumcision used to be ~ is for us and all our children. and all those who are far off (Acts 2:38). But yes, as is consistent with this passage in Acts 15, circumcision did not then... and baptism does not now... save. But there is a sign and seal of God's covenant ~ now baptism, as opposed to then when it was circumcision ~ and we are to administer it in the same way, as I said.


Yeah... not relevant to what we're talking about. No foods are forbidden; all God's gifts are blessed to us in Jesus Christ. We agree that circumcision itself is no longer required by God, and that it doesn't ~ never did, actually ~ save. And in that respect, baptism, which has replaced circumcision as the sign and seal of the covenant, God's promise to save, is the same in that baptism in and of itself doesn't save. See above. It is a visual reminder that God does save, and works through families to do so, and as such is a sign and seal of God's promise. Goodness gracious.


Sure. Agree. <smile> But that applies not to me. <smile>

You're certainly welcome to your opinions, CS. Thanks for your time.

Grace and peace to you.

I haven't seen a single scripture to support your private opinion of baptism and circumcision. These two have nothing in common, they were meant for different purposes altogether.

Colossians 2 uses circumcision as a metaphor to describe this new (spiritual circumcision of the heart). Baptism is nothing more than a regenerated born again Christians, making a public profession of faith and dunking him under water symbolises the death of the old man and the birth of the new man.

This Church ordinance is nothing more than an outward sign of an inward transformation. It's like the Lords Supper, we know that we are eating ordinary bread and drinking ordinary wine, so the elements are nothing,, just as the waters of baptism are nothing.

There have only been two covenants made between God His people (the elect of God). The covenant of "the law" was made with Adam, and the other, "the covenant of grace", was made with Gods people from after Adam up until today. There's no point in mentioning those insignificant covenants made with individuals. They don't apply to me or you, so there's no point in bringing them up.

Abraham, Jacob, Moses and all of Gods Prophets from the Old Testament times, we just like me. They were all Born Again Christians, who put their faith in the Lord Jesus for the remission of their sins. Everyone who was and is saved, since Adam was saved in the exact same way. Nobody was ever saved by keeping the law or any other works, we were all saved by grace. And you simply can't get around that awful fact.

I repeat my previous statement that nobody since Adam has ever been saved by keeping any commandment or law. You have never provided a single verse to support this opinion of yours.

 

[Christian Soldier]

I am NOT required to prove orthodox Christianity to you...
and I CHOOSE not to.
My CHOICE must have been predestinated by God.

Also,, please learn the difference between orthodox Christianity and the Orthodox denomination.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry not required but thank you :)
I do try & keep it short n sweet.
--So I can do whatever I want to do now with no consequences?
As Christians IN SOME WAY we continue to do what we want (sin)
Ps, I'm guilty of the following
Why do we fail at "love your neighbor" ?
Because IN SOME WAY we continue to do what we want.
"Love your neighbor" is a command, not doing it is disobeying GOD by doing whatever we want.
Entry (NOT ETERNAL REWARDS) into eternal life is ONLY by faith/trust/belief in the death/burial/resurrection of Christ - Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4.
If obey GOD is an additional condition to Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 then where are the verse/s from Paul that teach the amount of obey that is required ?
Either entry into eternal life for believers 'today' is only by faith or it isn't.
Titu 3:5, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1 teaches what ? :)

rvmb
This is my last post till later on....

OK, NOW I know what you're stating.

You believe in faith alone with nothing else added.
My original statement (I think to you) was that if we add anything to faith...
it is no longer by faith alone.

Since Jesus said we are to love our neighbor...HE is adding something to faith.
I won't get into James because we'll go around forever.

We all continue to sin.
But sinning is different than living in sin.

And, I'd add that all sin is willful,,,unless I don't understand what willful means.

If I steal something, is it willful? I think so.
If I lie, is it willful? I think so.
If I gossip, is it will ful? I think so.

So, IMHO, all sin is willful - I might be wrong on this...but I can't think of any sin that isn't.

So we sin.
We confess, as John stated, and we continue in our walk with God.

THIS does not cause us to forfeit our salvation.

So what does?

Exactly what Jesus and Paul state:

FALLING AWAY from faith.
Leaving it.
It's called apostacy.
It's called denying God.

LIVING A LIFE OF SIN.
Jesus called it LAWLESSNESS in Matthew 7:23
John called it PRACTICING SIN in 1 John 3:9


I fear that saying that all that is needed is faith...
leads many to state that after salvation...NOTHING can cause them to lose it...
the snatching out of the hand verse.

This is incorrect. We can walk out of the hand of God.
THE PERSON can cause their own forfeiture.

We are saved by FAITH ALONE.

AFTER salvation...we will be required to obey God.

Obey does NOT mean we will never sin...
only Jesus never sinned.

It does mean we have an advocate.
It does mean we do our best.

God will not be fooled.

Jesus Himself said that we could be IN HIM and still be removed from the vine (Him).

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

What could be more clear?

IF we do NOT bear fruit.....we are taken away.

Every branch IN JESUS (a saved person)
that does not bear fruit...is taken away...removed from the vine.
The vine gives life...if the person is removed, he no longer has life.

And read on...it goes beyond this...
if the branch DOES bear fruit,,,it's PRUNED so that it will bear even more!

 

[Christian Soldier]

I do not enjoy conversing with ignorant persons.
Of which YOU are one.

I'm sorry to see the truth hurts you so bad

 

[Christian Soldier]

Must be what YOU do CS....
slander persons...you know, like calling me a liar.


because I NEVER resort to slander.
However YOU do this all the time...

This very post proves it.

Which is why I prefer not to post to you.

Your ignorance is beyond belief.

And if you think IGNORANCE is slander...
please look up the word in a dictionary.

More of the same, all you have to offer is slander and denial of Gods Word. It's beggars belief

 

[GodsGrace]

When Paul says they “depart from the faith,” he’s telling us exactly what they fall away from — not saving faith itself, but the objective faith, the true religion once delivered to the saints.

I understand the difference between faith and the faith.
So you think Paul is concerned about persons leaving THE CHURCH?

1 Corinthians 9.26-27
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

You think Paul is concerned about being disqualified from the church??
Paul is concerned with salvation...
THIS is why he wrote all the letters he wrote.

He's not teaching that we need to belong to a church...to THE FAITH....
He's teaching that we are to have FAITH...
Did he not teach that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH?

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Through FAITH
NOT
THE faith.

In other words, they fall away from the Christian confession, the covenant community, and the truth they once professed — not from a saving union with Christ they never actually possessed.

---

I gave scripture debunking your above statement.

We cannot FALL AWAY from something we NEVER POSSESSED.
(FAITH).

 

[rvmb]

rvmb
This is my last post till later on....

OK, NOW I know what you're stating.

You believe in faith alone with nothing else added.
My original statement (I think to you) was that if we add anything to faith...
it is no longer by faith alone.

Since Jesus said we are to love our neighbor...HE is adding something to faith.
I won't get into James because we'll go around forever.

We all continue to sin.
But sinning is different than living in sin.

And, I'd add that all sin is willful,,,unless I don't understand what willful means.

If I steal something, is it willful? I think so.
If I lie, is it willful? I think so.
If I gossip, is it will ful? I think so.

So, IMHO, all sin is willful - I might be wrong on this...but I can't think of any sin that isn't.

So we sin.
We confess, as John stated, and we continue in our walk with God.

THIS does not cause us to forfeit our salvation.

So what does?

Exactly what Jesus and Paul state:

FALLING AWAY from the faith.
Leaving it.
It's called apostacy.
It's called denying God.

LIVING A LIFE OF SIN.
Jesus called it LAWLESSNESS in Matthew 7:23
John called it PRACTICING SIN in 1 John 3:9


I fear that saying that all that is needed is faith...
leads many to state that after salvation...NOTHING can cause them to lose it...
the snatching out of the hand verse.

This is incorrect. We can walk out of the hand of God.
THE PERSON can cause their own forfeiture.

We are saved by FAITH ALONE.

AFTER salvation...we will be required to obey God.

Obey does NOT mean we will never sin...
only Jesus never sinned.

It does mean we have an advocate.
It does mean we do our best.

God will not be fooled.

Jesus Himself said that we could be IN HIM and still be removed from the vine (Him).

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

What could be more clear?

IF we do NOT bear fruit.....we are taken away.

Every branch IN JESUS (a saved person)
that does not bear fruit...is taken away...removed from the vine.
The vine gives life...if the person is removed, he no longer has life.

And read on...it goes beyond this...
if the branch DOES bear fruit,,,it's PRUNED so that it will bear even more!

""We confess, as John stated, and we continue in our walk with God.""
Take no offence please....John, John, John, John..
Who is John Apostle to ? Gal 2:7-9, Acts 15:6-25.
Who is our Apostle ? Acts 9:15, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16
When you blend the teachings of the Apostles the result is confusion.
Conditions & requirements of Salvation for believers today is taught by Christ THROUGH Paul, not John, not James, not Peter etc
Today, how we are saved, how we should live, how are sins are forgiven etc is taught by Christ THROUGH Paul not the 12 :)

 

[GodsGrace]

""We confess, as John stated, and we continue in our walk with God.""
Take no offence please....John, John, John, John..
Who is John Apostle to ? Gal 2:7-9, Acts 15:6-25.
Who is our Apostle ? Acts 9:15, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16
When you blend the teachings of the Apostles the result is confusion.
Conditions & requirements of Salvation for believers today is taught by Christ THROUGH Paul, not John, not James, not Peter etc
Today, how we are saved, how we should live, how are sins are forgiven etc is taught by Christ THROUGH Paul not the 12 :)

Oh you're a Paul only kinda guy.

Do you also believe Jesus?

I post a lot of what Jesus teaches.

I posted Matthew 7:23-28.
Is that good enough for you?

I posted Luke 8:13
Is that good enough for you?

I posted John 5:28-29
Good enough?

How about Matthew 25:35-46
Good enough?

I do wish you had made your position clear from the very beginning.
Beating around the bush sure does waste a lot of time.

PS
Maybe we coud do away with the rest of the NT?

 

[Grailhunter]

A guy likes baseball and has friends that like baseball. He talks to his friends about baseball. He is accepted in this group because of baseball and in fact belongs to a baseball team. But he never goes to the game, never plays with his team. Never helps those that are fans. He calls himself a baseball player.....but is he?

Some people call themselves Christians for social acceptance. Some people agree with doctrine for social acceptance. Some people sit in their lazy-boy and talk about Christianity but do not help others or go to church.....so are they Christians? Be good and do good.

 

[GodsGrace]

A guy likes baseball and has friends that like baseball. He talks to his friends about baseball. He is accepted in this group because of baseball and in fact belongs to a baseball team. But he never goes to the game, never plays with his team. Never helps those that are fans. He calls himself a baseball player.....but is he?

Some people call themselves Christians for social acceptance. Some people agree with doctrine for social acceptance. Some people sit on their lazy-boy and talk about Christianity but do not help others or go to church.....so are they Christians? Be good and do good.

Johnny Appleseed.

 

[Grailhunter]

Johnny Appleseed.

Johnny Appleseed of truth.

 

[LoveYeshua]

WORKS has become a dirty word.
Not to be used within Christendom.

Which is kind of strange since that's ALL JESUS SPOKE OF !!
Our behavior.
Our obedience.

Why anyone would believe some doctrine invented a couple of hundred years ago over what the church has ALWAYS taught is a mystery to me.

Maybe these persons don't understand what works are?
Maybe they'd rather not do any?
Maybe they think Christianity is a free ride to heaven - even though Jesus said to count the cost before you join.

Who can know??

They have heard that WORKS OF THE LAW is not necessary, most do not even know what works are or what "Law" Jesus was teaching is. They twist Paul's words who was speaking of the Levetical Laws of Moses as obsolete since Christ fulfilled these Laws, worse they extend obsolescence that Paul spoke of the Levetical Laws to the TEN Commandments, not understanding that the ten commandment, the Covenant , placed IN the ark of the Covenant was set apart and Is Holy and everlasting. this is what Jesus was teaching and said clearly that to enter into life one must keep the Ten Commandments from the heart, and show this light to the world and not hide it, the works Jesus speak of are simple, help others in need. Imagine if everyone did this, it would be paradise.

Blessings GG

 

[PinSeeker]

I haven't seen a single scripture to support your private opinion of baptism and circumcision.

Even though I've supported it with Scripture, and others have acknowledged it. Okay, fair enough.

These two have nothing in common, they were meant for different purposes altogether.

You're welcome to your... private opinion <smile> ...for sure.

Colossians 2 uses circumcision as a metaphor...

No, circumcision was a real thing, for sure, certainly not a metaphor. But if you say that, then to be consistent you have to call baptism a metaphor, also. But I wouldn't do that if I were you... <smile>

to describe this new (spiritual circumcision of the heart).

Baptism is nothing more than a regenerated born again Christians, making a public profession of faith and dunking him under water symbolises the death of the old man and the birth of the new man.

In the case of older children and adults who have never been baptized before and have already come to Christ, yes, they should be baptized; we have agreed on that. But... <smile> ...because of what baptism is, it should not be withheld from believing Christians' children for any reason, including age, cognitive ability, or ability to convey anything to any other person. In post 4473 above to Ronald, I posted the following, and will do so again here to you:

I have never even insinuated that our water baptism saves or confers salvation upon a person, and have on multiple occasions explicitly stated that it does not. But it is a call on, in the case of infant baptism by the parents, God's promise to work through the parents and call him or her to Himself and thus confer salvation upon him or her, at the time of His choosing. These are the vows that the parents take in having their baby baptized in our church (all Scripturally supported, of course):​

​

1. Do you acknowledge your child’s need of the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ, and the renewing grace of the Holy Spirit? ​

2. Do you claim God’s covenant promises in (his or her) behalf, and do you look in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ for (his or her) salvation, as you do for your own? ​

3. Do you now unreservedly dedicate your child to God, and promise, in humble reliance upon divine grace, that you will endeavor to set before (him or her) a godly example, that you will pray with and for (him or her), that you will teach (him) the doctrines of our holy religion, and that you will strive, by all the means of God’s appointment, to bring (him or her) up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord?​

​

And the congregation then corporately takes this vow:​

​

1. Do you as a congregation undertake the responsibility of assisting the parents in the Christian nurture of this child?​

This Church ordinance...

It's not a "Church ordinance."

is nothing more than an outward sign of an inward transformation.

It is an outward sign, yes, but not "inward transformation." In the case of infants, we are trusting in the Holy Spirit that He will eventually make that happen, but only He can do so. But still, this outward sign, this sacrament, is very, very significant and important... for the "baptizee" and for all who witness it.

It's like the Lords Supper, we know that we are eating ordinary bread and drinking ordinary wine, so the elements are nothing,, just as the waters of baptism are nothing.

Ah, well I wouldn't say "nothing," but I absolutely agree with this. So, yes, the Lord's supper and water baptism are sacraments. They are very tangible and visible reminders of... very, very important things. So, again, I wouldn't say "nothing" with regard to either, but yes, the idea of transubstantiation (with regard to communion) and reckoning baptism as conferring salvation on a person are both wrong. The elements are ordinary, yes, but they are representative of very, very important things. <smile>

There have only been two covenants made between God His people (the elect of God). The covenant of "the law" was made with Adam, and the other, "the covenant of grace", was made with Gods people from after Adam up until today.

Agreed. I thought you were going to say the covenant of grace was not with anyone until the New Testament, as many dispensationalists do. So... I'm pleasantly surprised. <smile>

There's no point in mentioning those insignificant covenants made with individuals. They don't apply to me or you, so there's no point in bringing them up.

Now THIS... is absolutely wrong. Insignificant? Wow. If that were the case, then one might wonder why they're even mentioned in God's inspired Word, which, as you must know, is "breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17). The covenant of grace, Christian Soldier, is made up of all the lesser covenants (life, land and a people, the law, and a King). And the final, full manifestation of it is Jesus Christ. That these covenants were initially made with individuals is true, but those individuals were representative of... well, I'll say large groups of people across all subsequent time.

Abraham, Jacob, Moses and all of Gods Prophets from the Old Testament times, we just like me. They were all Born Again Christians, who put their faith in the Lord Jesus for the remission of their sins. Everyone who was and is saved, since Adam was saved in the exact same way. Nobody was ever saved by keeping the law or any other works, we were all saved by grace.

Right. Exactly right. Hebrews 11 is very clear... "By faith Abel..." and on and on and on. Right. I'm... not sure why you think I'm not in agreement with what you way here.

And you simply can't get around that awful fact.

No, I can't, and haven't tried to do that... I wouldn't call it "awful," though... <smile> It's quite a magnificent fact... <smile>

I repeat my previous statement that nobody since Adam has ever been saved by keeping any commandment or law.

And I agree. Again. <smile> I'm not even sure why you think I don't agree with this and keep repeating it as if I don't; it seems a non sequitur on your part to me, really...

You have never provided a single verse to support this opinion of yours.

In... your opinion. Yeah, I get it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

They have heard that WORKS OF THE LAW is not necessary, most do not even know what works are or what "Law" Jesus was teaching is. They twist Paul's words who was speaking of the Levetical Laws of Moses as obsolete since Christ fulfilled these Laws, worse they extend obsolescence that Paul spoke of the Levetical Laws to the TEN Commandments, not understanding that the ten commandment, the Covenant , placed IN the ark of the Covenant was set apart and Is Holy and everlasting. this is what Jesus was teaching and said clearly that to enter into life one must keep the Ten Commandments from the heart, and show this light to the world and not hide it, the works Jesus speak of are simple, help others in need. Imagine if everyone did this, it would be paradise.

Blessings GG

The only thing I would add to this, if I may, is... well, three things:

1.) Jesus said, "I did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." He says nothing about making it passe'... or defunct, or no longer applicable or active and binding.

2.) Jesus also said that loving the Lord your God and loving your neighbor are what all of Moses and the Prophets depend on, which is to say the entire law is summed up in those two great commandments. To this end, the first four of the Ten Commandments are about loving God, and the last six of the Ten Commandments are about loving your neighbor.

3.) Building on point two, Jesus clarified what the laws really are in all His "But I tell you" statements, saying, for instance, that committing adultery is far more than was thought in the days of ancient Israel, that "everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart," which is to say the law is infinitely farther reaching than just mere outward acts, but rather matters of the heart.

But yes, one day, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no more sin, but only love. And... we will keep the law ~ the law of Christ, which is the full manifestation of the Old Testament law ~ perfectly. As Jesus did. And I'll just say... Jesus did not make sacrifices. <smile> And... He loved the Lord God with all His heart, soul, and mind, and He loved His neighbor perfectly. He is love. <smile> Yes, we will all be fully conformed to the image of Jesus.

So. Come quickly, Lord Jesus. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[rvmb]

Oh you're a Paul only kinda guy.

Do you also believe Jesus?

I post a lot of what Jesus teaches.

I posted Matthew 7:23-28.
Is that good enough for you?

I posted Luke 8:13
Is that good enough for you?

I posted John 5:28-29
Good enough?

How about Matthew 25:35-46
Good enough?

I do wish you had made your position clear from the very beginning.
Beating around the bush sure does waste a lot of time.

PS
Maybe we coud do away with the rest of the NT?

Oh you're a Paul only kinda guy.
To teach Salvation for TODAY ?
Yes, because that's EXACTLY why & what Christ selected & taught Paul to do.
If you believe I am wrong then please list the verses that after Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16 teach Matthew, Luke, John etc have the role of Apostle & Minister to the believers spoken of in Gal 3:28, 1 Cor12:13, Col 3:11.
Let Scripture do the talking for you :)

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[Christian Soldier]

Even though I've supported it with Scripture, and others have acknowledged it. Okay, fair enough.


You're welcome to your... private opinion <smile> ...for sure.


No, circumcision was a real thing, for sure, certainly not a metaphor. But if you say that, then to be consistent you have to call baptism a metaphor, also. But I wouldn't do that if I were you... <smile>




In the case of older children and adults who have never been baptized before and have already come to Christ, yes, they should be baptized; we have agreed on that. But... <smile> ...because of what baptism is, it should not be withheld from believing Christians' children for any reason, including age, cognitive ability, or ability to convey anything to any other person. In post 4473 above to Ronald, I posted the following, and will do so again here to you:

I have never even insinuated that our water baptism saves or confers salvation upon a person, and have on multiple occasions explicitly stated that it does not. But it is a call on, in the case of infant baptism by the parents, God's promise to work through the parents and call him or her to Himself and thus confer salvation upon him or her, at the time of His choosing. These are the vows that the parents take in having their baby baptized in our church (all Scripturally supported, of course):​

​

1. Do you acknowledge your child’s need of the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ, and the renewing grace of the Holy Spirit? ​

2. Do you claim God’s covenant promises in (his or her) behalf, and do you look in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ for (his or her) salvation, as you do for your own? ​

3. Do you now unreservedly dedicate your child to God, and promise, in humble reliance upon divine grace, that you will endeavor to set before (him or her) a godly example, that you will pray with and for (him or her), that you will teach (him) the doctrines of our holy religion, and that you will strive, by all the means of God’s appointment, to bring (him or her) up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord?​

​

And the congregation then corporately takes this vow:​

​

1. Do you as a congregation undertake the responsibility of assisting the parents in the Christian nurture of this child?​

It's not a "Church ordinance."


It is an outward sign, yes, but not "inward transformation." In the case of infants, we are trusting in the Holy Spirit that He will eventually make that happen, but only He can do so. But still, this outward sign, this sacrament, is very, very significant and important... for the "baptizee" and for all who witness it.


Ah, well I wouldn't say "nothing," but I absolutely agree with this. So, yes, the Lord's supper and water baptism are sacraments. They are very tangible and visible reminders of... very, very important things. So, again, I wouldn't say "nothing" with regard to either, but yes, the idea of transubstantiation (with regard to communion) and reckoning baptism as conferring salvation on a person are both wrong. The elements are ordinary, yes, but they are representative of very, very important things. <smile>


Agreed. I thought you were going to say the covenant of grace was not with anyone until the New Testament, as many dispensationalists do. So... I'm pleasantly surprised. <smile>


Now THIS... is absolutely wrong. Insignificant? Wow. If that were the case, then one might wonder why they're even mentioned in God's inspired Word, which, as you must know, is "breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17). The covenant of grace, Christian Soldier, is made up of all the lesser covenants (life, land and a people, the law, and a King). And the final, full manifestation of it is Jesus Christ. That these covenants were initially made with individuals is true, but those individuals were representative of... well, I'll say large groups of people across all subsequent time.


Right. Exactly right. Hebrews 11 is very clear... "By faith Abel..." and on and on and on. Right. I'm... not sure why you think I'm not in agreement with what you way here.


No, I can't, and haven't tried to do that... I wouldn't call it "awful," though... <smile> It's quite a magnificent fact... <smile>


And I agree. Again. <smile> I'm not even sure why you think I don't agree with this and keep repeating it as if I don't; it seems a non sequitur on your part to me, really...


In... your opinion. Yeah, I get it.

Grace and peace to you.

No,, you have never ever found a single verse to support your private view that infant baptism was ever taught in the bible.
So it's obviously not what you and some others think it is, this is why private interpretation of the Bible, always leads to confusion and the creation of false doctrines.

Nobody suggested that circumcision was not a real thing, I just pointed out that the writer of Colossians 2 was using circumcision in a metaphoric way to describe spiritual circumcision of the heart.

I'm not interested in any vows made by other people, God never outsources salvation to third parties. He is the author and finisher of salvation. And sprinkling babies or infants is a futile exercise because you don't know if those children are of the devil o of God.
So how does baptising the devils children bring glory to God??? answer "it doesn't as it is an abomination in His sight"

Baptism is a Church ordinance, it's not a sacrament at all.

I don't understand why you don't believe that born again Christians are not transformed on the inside. I can assure you they are because the Holy Spirit will not dwell in a filthy stinking corpse (unconverted person).

The covenant God made with individuals, has no relevance to me. That was between God and the individual in question. This doesn't mean I can't learn anything from it, it just means that it doesn't effect me or my salvation.

 

[rvmb]

No,, you have never ever found a single verse to support your private view that infant baptism was ever taught in the bible.
So it's obviously not what you and some others think it is, this is why private interpretation of the Bible, always leads to confusion and the creation of false doctrines.

Nobody suggested that circumcision was not a real thing, I just pointed out that the writer of Colossians 2 was using circumcision in a metaphoric way to describe spiritual circumcision of the heart.

I'm not interested in any vows made by other people, God never outsources salvation to third parties. He is the author and finisher of salvation. And sprinkling babies or infants is a futile exercise because you don't know if those children are of the devil o of God.
So how does baptising the devils children bring glory to God??? answer "it doesn't as it is an abomination in His sight"

Baptism is a Church ordinance, it's not a sacrament at all.

I don't understand why you don't believe that born again Christians are not transformed on the inside. I can assure you they are because the Holy Spirit will not dwell in a filthy stinking corpse (unconverted person).

The covenant God made with individuals, has no relevance to me. That was between God and the individual in question. This doesn't mean I can't learn anything from it, it just means that it doesn't effect me or my salvation.

the Holy Spirit will not dwell in a filthy stinking corpse (unconverted person).
Scripture teaches that once an UNsaved filthy stinking corpse accepts the Gospel (1 Cor 15:1-4) that filthy stinking corpse is saved & sealed with the HS (Eph 1:13)

 

[Christian Soldier]

the Holy Spirit will not dwell in a filthy stinking corpse (unconverted person).
Scripture teaches that once an UNsaved filthy stinking corpse accepts the Gospel (1 Cor 15:1-4) that filthy stinking corpse is saved & sealed with the HS (Eph 1:13)

What the hell are you pushing here, those verses you tried to twist were not directed at (unconverted sinners). You're obviously under strong delusion, since you don't even know the difference between (born again Christians, Gods children) and the reprobate (children of the devil).

You have foolishly bundled Gods children and the children of the devil together as if we're all the same. Your theology is an abomination in my sight (and I'm a fallen sinner), let alone how offensive it is in Gods sight.

 

[mailmandan]