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Is Jesus God?

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Groundzero, Aug 7, 2011.

Is Jesus God?

  1. Yes

    90.5%
  2. No

    9.5%
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  1. NicholasMarks

    NicholasMarks New Member

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    "I (Jesus Christ) bear witness of my father and my father bears witness of me.

    Why should the same person bear witness of themself. No one would accept this as being an unbiased witness...whilst two separate beings are bearing witness to the fact that they are co-sharers in a wonderful knowledge which they want the caring and righteous, here on planet Earth, to know about. By example, Jesus taught us the full extent of God's righteous laws. We had no chance of understanding that knowledge by intellect, at that time but, as proven by the passage of time, it is an indestructable knowledge, which, when it comes to full fruition, will reward those who have tried to incorporate that knowledge in their own lives.

    If we, as individuals, read Jesus's accurate word, we find that this honest and open book tells the honest and open mind that on honest and open knowledge will lighten our load and go on to tell us deeper truthes which will culminate into everlasting life. The Son of God said himself that he is not God...why should we disbelieve him???
     
  2. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Amen :)

    Have you noticed that their "Messiah" which means "anointed one" had to anointed himself by their way of thinking?

    And the corresponding word from the Greek "Christ" means "chosen one" showing their God had to choose himself by their way of thinking?

    They render much nonsensical.
     
  3. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    But I will tell you NicholasMarks that it is fultilty to reason with most of these guys as they are only interested to see what they believe.

    Look back at that excellent post Guestman made in #10.

    What did he receive back? Did anyone really even consider what he said? No they did not.

    Instead in post #14 Duckybill just barraged him with a bunch of modern day Trinitarian translator's preferred renderings of John 1:1 and they did not even care to go look at the Sahidic Coptic version of John 1:1 that Guestman tried to point them toward.

    You cannot teach the unwilling. To try is only good for argument.

    We know for example that there are half a hundred examples in scripture showing they are in err to say that Jesus is saying he is God at John 8:58. They could see those things if they wanted to because they are too easy to see. 90% of what they say just proves they do not want to believe but what they believe.

    And that is the truth of the matter.

    Look at the hostility inherent in what Veteran said in his post #11 response to Guestman’s post. He said”
    “There is only 2 sides of debate of whether or not Jesus Christ is God.

    1. Those who have been called to believe on Christ Jesus as Immanuel God with us come in the flesh to be the Perfect Sacrifice for sin, and offer all who would believe on Him everlasting Life.

    or...

    2. Those who refuse to recognize Christ Jesus as God The Saviour because they want to be their own god. These are antichrists, because they refuse to believe that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ.”


    It is a waste of time trying to reason with them. And I can show you in the scriptures where we are told when we see such signs that we are just to leave them believe what they believe.

    Sad, I know. But it is on them.


    It is no mystery why Jesus said, John 12:48 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
     
  4. NicholasMarks

    NicholasMarks New Member

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    Hi Vengle...

    I view things slightly differently. I see the trinity as the result of indoctrination over many generations. People cling to it because their fathers and their forefathers believed what iniquity told them. The problem arises because clear thinking is the process whereby we free ourselves from many health problems and this is highlighted by Jesus' teaching that he is the way, the truth, and the life. He tells us that our righteous spirit is the tool that ultimately provides Jesus's promises which include a clear, alert, active mind residing in a strong, healthy body for all eternity. The trinity is just one of many obstacles that iniquity has planted as weeds along the harvest field. Individually upbuilding a strong, righteous spirit by implementing Jesus's accurate teaching...as written in the Holy Bible and understood by accepting by faith and honest interpretation...what is actually written.
     
  5. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Let's look at what Veteran said in his post #11 just a bit closer just for the sake of doing so.

    He said"

    “There is only 2 sides of debate of whether or not Jesus Christ is God.

    1. Those who have been called to believe on Christ Jesus as Immanuel God with us come in the flesh to be the Perfect Sacrifice for sin, and offer all who would believe on Him everlasting Life.

    or...

    2. Those who refuse to recognize Christ Jesus as God The Saviour because they want to be their own god. These are antichrists, because they refuse to believe that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ.”



    I have already pointed out that this opinion is derived in part from what Jesus said at John 12:48 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    But let's look closer at what John 12:48 is really saying and examine the comments Veteran made in his post #11.

    Just after Jesus said what he said at John 12:48 he went on to say, 49-50 "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak."

    There we have this person who everyone is saying is God talking of his Father in the second person and not as though they are the same person. Jesus there admits that the words he speaks he is quoting of his Father and that he has not spoken of his own self from his own mind or opinion. Further, Jesus calls his Father his God at Mark 15:34; John 20:17; and Revelation 3:12.

    To get the context there in John 12 notice John 12:26 "If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour." Compare it to John 12:42-43 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."

    Jesus point was in contrast to that he himself did love and live for the praise of God instead of the praise of men. John 7:18 "He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him." John 8:50 "And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth." John 17:4 "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do."

    And of course true to the principle 1 Peter 5:6 "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:", Jesus having lived for the glory and honor of his Father's name would himself be glorified by God. Thus we read: John 13:31-32 "Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him."

    And Veteran knows or should know that the Immanuel of Isaiah's day was a sign to lift the spirits of the people by assuring them God was with them and had not forsaken them. And that is also how Jesus was Immanuel. He was a sign to the people. Isaiah 11:10 "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

    Yes, Jesus was as an ensign or an Immanuel of special meaning and encouragement to the people just like the Immanuel of Isaiah's day and time was. Isaiah 8:10 "Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us."

    I absolutely agree with that.

    The shear popularity of the teaching is an obstacle of similar fashion.

    Why? It is answered by Jesus in John chapter 12.
     
  6. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    The mature mind / heart / will (soul)

    1. Ability to delay gratification (trust)
    2. Ability to regulate emotions (obedience)
    3. Ability to suspend disbelief (faith)
    4. Ability to exercise a flexible mind. (humility)


    Perhaps I sound emotional when I post - I am a passionate person. However, I also attempt to exercise cognitive flexibility - approaching ideas and life with a light touch - humility towards the ownership of ideas.

    I do believe that without Christ, Buddhism offers the best hope for a peaceful, productive and happy life. Thankfully, I believe that Christ is God and that He has justified my soul (whole being) and that the Holy Spirit is in partnership with me to transform me into a redeemed citizen of Heaven. All relationships require the participation of everyone involved - the same is true with our relationship with God.
     
  7. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    That sounds reasonable. It just sounded to me like you were saying that should it turn out that Christ is the Son of God and not God himself then your would rather be a Buddhist. :rolleyes:

    Hey, I might have to accept it the other way around and i am quite certain i would have no problem with that. i am seriously only desirous of knowing the truth, whatever that may be.

    It won't change the deepness of my love of God and Christ one iota.
     
  8. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    You've got a few misconceptions with what you wrote Vengle...


    What you're doing there is creating a contradiction, because Jesus declared Himself as God several times in NT Scripture. The latter part of John 8 when He referred to Himself as The 'I AM' was a huge example. What He asked the unbelieving Jews about the Psalms of why David called Him "Lord" if Christ is only David's flesh son is another huge proof. Further, the words Christ Jesus said upon the cross per Mark 15:34 was a direct quote from the Psalms 22 prophecy of His crucifixion. So Jesus was actually teaching... while upon the cross while saying those words. It was a pointer for those paying attention that there the event David prophesied of around 1,000 years earlier was right then coming to pass, as written, even down to the soldiers casting lots upon His robes.

    So the rest I'm afraid, is just simply rambling that does nothing but create more confusion and contradiction about Jesus as The Christ. Even the Name "Immanuel" (God with us) per the Isaiah Scripture should be clear enough to understand The Christ is God The Saviour.



    Part of that actually is taking away Christ's Identity as Immanuel (God with us), because also in the Isaiah Scripture, He is called "The mighty God, The everlasting Father"...

    Isa 9:6-7
    6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    7 Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
    (KJV)


    There's no valid reason to try and change what those Scriptures reveal simply because some cannot stop thinking with their carnal fleshly mind to understand Who The Christ is per God's Word. And because that declaration of Who The Christ is ORIGINATES in the Old Testament Scripture, those who claim to believe God's Word have no excuse for denying it as written, especially the Jews since they've had possession of that Scripture from its beginning from God Himself.
     
  9. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    You would like to believe what you said but that does not make what you said true. There is valid reason to discard the lies of men and learn what the scriptures really teach. That may seem like changing things to you. But it is not.

    What I said is completely accurate. It detracts nothing as it is what it is. It is what the Bible really teaches. My job is not to change that but to ascertain and accept what is true. The idea that "God with us" implies Jesus is God does not fit the truth of scripture. it is a mistaken idea. It takes honesty and humility to see these things that rub you the wrong way a bit because of what you have long believed.

    That is like how Trinitarians take Isaiah 43:11 and ignore what the Hebrew word translated "beside" there really means. It means "without" or "apart from" in the sense that any savior must get their power to save from God. In other words, like as Jesus sat down beside God. A savior must be positioned of God at God's side before he can have saving power. There is no savior without God. Look the word up. You Trinitarians ignore too much to make things fit what you want to believe. That is not something my conscience will allow me to do. Look these things up rather than wasting so much time protesting. And don't run to the works of other biased Trinitarians. Get impartial material to help you.

    You have to invent to make scriptures like as John 8:58 say that Jesus is God. That is a fairly easy one to see through if one wants to. If you don't that is your right. As for me I will not settle for invention of false ideas to support my beliefs because I do not care which way I believe so long as I believe what is true.

    There is really little excuse for you not to see many of the errors you make in your interpretations unless you are just a blind follower of what you are told and do not really study your Bibles yourself (which many Christians do these days). But I know you guys on here have no excuse not to see other than your refuse to see. And I won't change the truth to suit you. I do not change it even for myself. I study it thoroughly and accept what I find after rigorous investigation.

    I only went through the eighth grade and back then I was a D and F student who only passed grades by courtesy (which they used to do).

    When I really got involved in studying the Bible I also began studying the things I lacked from those school days and I took what is called a GED test for a high school equivalency diploma. I scored 98 on the percentile average which rated my skills against graduating HS Seniors across the nation. I was only 2% away from the nations best. And I added to my studies in grammar and delved into the Biblical languages through correspondence courses with occasional college classes. My comprehension level runs sky high compared to the average person. And I owe it all to having such a love for God's word that I would stop at nothing to be sure I could understand it. For example, I read and studied the complete set of Interpreters Encyclopedias.

    No body but no body can intimidate me and make me doubt what I know. I can generally see their mistakes in interpretation long before they are aware of them. I have seen many who do eventually get it right and enjoyed musing at the reasoning they went through to get there. I like teaching others because of the background I came from and that puts me into position to observe such things about people. I use everything as a tool to learn. And i have seen many people who just never get it. That only proves that the Bible does not lie when it tells us that it takes not just the head knowledge but also and I believe more importantly the Holy Spirit.

    Do you think I don't know that they will likely end up kicking me out of this debate site for speaking as forthright with you as I do?

    Do I care, yes. But I care more to try to help you while I am able to be here. I am a true soldier of Christ. I can tell you of many ways that i have been stoned and retaliated against over the years. But I have never relented from doing what Christ expects me to do and i am not about to cease for anyone, even if they actually literally beat me or killed me. Which I have had some grab me up physically like they had demons running wild in them. but thankfully I was always able to sooth them. In one case a guy who literally threatened to kill me and stalked me just to torment me finally melted and became one of my better Bible studies. You just have to trust in God. it works.
     
  10. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Vengle, are you worried about people picking on you? It seems like you spend quite a bit of time pointing out how smart you are and how you are here to teach everyone the right why to read the Bible. Ironically, you also talk about the importance of humility on your profile.....

    Aren't we all here to share ideas and opinions about the scriptures and the Christian lifestyle? Why then do I feel like you are constantly trying to one up everyone? (which is the nice version of what I am actually thinking) Seriously? I hope you are between the ages of 17 and 25 so that you will outgrow this tendency - it really is unattractive.

    The worst part is....I think you probably are above average in intelligence, but the superior tone in your posts is so off-putting, it nullifies your strengthens. Too bad.
     
  11. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I know I am.

    Your opinion is your opinion aspen.

    I speak to people as I see they need to be spoken to.

    And I am not shy about it.
     
  12. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    You know you are what?

    Do you think my assessment is inaccurate?
     
  13. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Yes, I see I left the word "who" out.

    I best be careful as you Trinitarians will accuse me of claiming to be God. :lol:

    I know who I am. I need no one of flesh to tell me.
     
  14. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    How friendly? That is a gross misuse of those scriptures and a man that goes around talking that way to others just because they disagree with him actually deserves far harsher words than the ones I gave.

    And as I showed just a few posts above, that is not the only post he has called us antichrists in.

    You do not here see me calling him an antichrist though I believe he is wrong as to Christ's true identity.
     
  15. NicholasMarks

    NicholasMarks New Member

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    It is a shame that the person who came to the Earth as God's representative...thus earning himself a place of the highest authority over the whole universe...and who made it clear that in becoming the Son of the One, True, God,he was still subjective to his fathers righteous laws, is, in many peoples eyes being called Almighty God...the first incorruptable being.

    Look at it this way...if no one comes to the father except through Jesus but we call Jesus the father then who is actually reaching Almighty God's loving authority??? We have discarded a vital component in the relationship and missing the target we have set ourselves.

    This becomes vitally important when we pray because to interact with Jesus's father's energetic love, we have got to hit the right note, the right meekness and truth...because no one reaches the father unless in spirit and in truth.
     
  16. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    All those statements of mine Vengle put in large bold about 1 John 2 are exactly the Message from those Scriptures.

    If you were so correct, as you think, you would easily be able to disprove those Scriptures, but you cannot, so you resort to other actions.

    So let's put that Scripture in large bold instead, so everyone can easily SEE...

    I Jn 2:22-23
    22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
    (KJV)


    I Jn 4:3
    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    (KJV)
     
  17. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Are you getting your heretical ideas about Christ from The Urantia Book, Vengle?
     
  18. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    You specifically said that anyone who denies Jesus is God is the antichrist.

    You are so emotional about your belief that you cannot see that we who believe Jesus to be the Son of God who was and is exalted by his Father for his perfect faithfulness do acknowledge both the Father and the Son and we certainly acknowledge that Jesus the Son of God came in the flesh.

    Stop reading into those scriptures as though they say we must believe Jesus is literally God for they have no hint of the idea except to your imagination.

    And if you would stop adding to the scriptures with your imagination then you might also stop falsely accusing us.

    I posted your post #206 in my comment earlier. Below is your post #11:


    There is no call for those kinds of hideous accusations to be made by anyone on either side of this subject.

    You are doing as Veteran now.

    I hope that conduct makes you proud of yourself.

    You know that calling people heretics or their ideas heretical serves no useful purpose.
     
  19. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Didn't mean to insult you Vengle - seriously!

    You have made it clear that you reject the doctrine of the Trinity - therefore, your understanding of the doctrine of the Incarnation falls outside orthodoxy. I am a bit surprised that you are upset - you were happy to be classified as outside orthodoxy the first time I pointed it out.

    So are you a student of the Urantia Papers?
     
  20. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    No, not upset. Calling improper conduct or unfriendly words into check does not require one to be upset.

    Neither do I follow the Urantia Papers for my beliefs.

    My beliefs come straight from my study of the Bible.

    I learned what I needed to know to be capable of doing my own examination of the scriptures and to not have to depend on any man outside of those men who were wrote about in the scriptures or who wrote in the scriptures. My teacher is the word of God via the Holy Spirit.

    Unless I am mistaken, the Urantia Papers claim only that Jesus was not God in the flesh.

    I believe Jesus was not God in the flesh nor is he God in heaven.
     
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