Is Jesus the Son of God....truly or metaphorically?

[michaelvpardo]

Well, listening to voices in your head without testing them by the filter of God's written word is a big problem for many. If the word of God refutes your 'voice', then that's the end of it and you should submit to it. How EXACTLY are you texting this spirit that tells you things?
All you are doing here is making self serving, self righteous brags, that do nothing but undermine your credibility.
I suggest you read Isaiah 55:11 and contemplate on it.

The word hasn't refuted anything that I've said (anything said that wasn't intended to be sarcasm), just you.
As far as voices in my head? That might be your thing, but the only voice in my head that I typically hear is my own internal dialog. The rare exceptions to that have been unclean spirits blaspheming Christ (shortly after I was saved) and the Lord who typically speaks to our minds by bringing scripture to recollection as an answer to our deepest questions. If all you find of God is in a book, then you are among the most pitiable of Christians. Charles Stanley has written a book on "hearing God" and while I haven't read it myself, I've always considered him both sincere and empowered by the Holy Spirit, so you might want to look into something like that. Who knows Stan, you might even develop some meaningful friendships which you can carry with you into eternity, instead of blaspheming the work of the Spirit in other peoples lives.
I've read Isaiah 55:11 many times, more than I've read through the entire bible, as I don't enjoy reading 1st and 2nd kings, 1st and 2nd chronicles, and my least favorite book, the song of Solomon. That verse is the reason that I'm inclined to quote scripture heavily in evangelism, but you'd think that we shouldn't need to evangelize on a Christian forum (though apparently we do.)

 

[StanJ]

The word hasn't refuted anything that I've said (anything said that wasn't intended to be sarcasm), just you.
As far as voices in my head? That might be your thing, but the only voice in my head that I typically hear is my own internal dialog. The rare exceptions to that have been unclean spirits blaspheming Christ (shortly after I was saved) and the Lord who typically speaks to our minds by bringing scripture to recollection as an answer to our deepest questions. If all you find of God is in a book, then you are among the most pitiable of Christians. Charles Stanley has written a book on "hearing God" and while I haven't read it myself, I've always considered him both sincere and empowered by the Holy Spirit, so you might want to look into something like that. Who knows Stan, you might even develop some meaningful friendships which you can carry with you into eternity, instead of blaspheming the work of the Spirit in other peoples lives.
I've read Isaiah 55:11 many times, more than I've read through the entire bible, as I don't enjoy reading 1st and 2nd kings, 1st and 2nd chronicles, and my least favorite book, the song of Solomon. That verse is the reason that I'm inclined to quote scripture heavily in evangelism, but you'd think that we shouldn't need to evangelize on a Christian forum (though apparently we do.)

Well as you haven't SHOWN that, and only seem to be intent on a being sarcastic and not really SAY anything, there no reason to continue this exchange with you. I'm sure if you do read Dr. Stanley's book, you will learn about God's word and how important it is. From your use of the phrase above, I can see you know NOTHING as well of the Holy Spirit and how He works. Most likely because you don't know His word. If you're looking for meaningful relationships on an online forum I'd say you're more than desperate in that regard. Unlike many people on forums, I am an open book and don't hide behind anonymity. What you see is who I am, despite your derisive sarcasm.
I suggest you not bother asking me questions you're not willing to receive answers for.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Well as you haven't SHOWN that, and only seem to be intent on a being sarcastic and not really SAY anything, there no reason to continue this exchange with you. I'm sure if you do read Dr. Stanley's book, you will learn about God's word and how important it is. From your use of the phrase above, I can see you know NOTHING as well of the Holy Spirit and how He works. Most likely because you don't know His word. If you're looking for meaningful relationships on an online forum I'd say you're more than desperate in that regard. Unlike many people on forums, I am an open book and don't hide behind anonymity. What you see is who I am, despite your derisive sarcasm.
I suggest you not bother asking me questions you're not willing to receive answers for.

As far as I know, I only asked you one question. But honestly, I've seen absolutely nothing of you on this forum whatsoever.

 

[StanJ]

As far as I know, I only asked you one question. But honestly, I've seen absolutely nothing of you on this forum whatsoever.

The I guess you're not really paying attention as you can readily see my post rate is 5 to 1 compared to you. In any event your question was answered and you have been properly instructed.

 

[lforrest]

Lets return to the topic at hand, and refrain from the personal attacks/rebukes.

 

[iakov]

Jesus Christ as "the Word was with God, and the Word was a god" and not "God himself ".(John 1:1)

That is incorrect.

The Koine Greek reads:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος - In the beginning was the Logos
καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν - and the Logos was (positionally, relationally) before God.
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος - and God was the Logos.

Note that in "θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος," both theos and logos are in the nominative case. That is a parallel structure which indicates equality of both nouns.

Besides the grammar, considering that John was a Jew and therefore a monotheist, here is absolutely no basis for the mistranslation, "and the Word was a god."

 

[michaelvpardo]

Lets return to the topic at hand, and refrain from the personal attacks/rebukes.

I've noticed that the a few posts seem to have disappeared from this thread (the links are broken and lead to the OP), so was this your doing? If so, why the bias toward heretical views?

 

[StanJ]

I've noticed that the a few posts seem to have disappeared from this thread (the links are broken and lead to the OP), so was this your doing? If so, why the bias toward heretical views?

This is pretty much tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[lforrest]

I've noticed that the a few posts seem to have disappeared from this thread (the links are broken and lead to the OP), so was this your doing? If so, why the bias toward heretical views?

All the hidden posts here were of a personal nature having been directed at one member, and were off topic. Responses to these were also removed after being determined to be off topic.

 

[michaelvpardo]

All the hidden posts here were of a personal nature having been directed at one member, and were off topic. Responses to these were also removed after being determined to be off topic.

I don't like to engage in personal conversation over 3rd parties as it amounts to taking sides (or factions), but sometimes dissenting opinions engage in the practice when those 3rd parties demonstrate obstinacy and an absence of grace. Rebukes should be as public as offenses when it comes to uninformed attacks on character and substance, and when a 3rd party becomes offended by a rebuke and responds with insult rather than repentance, biblical discipline requires the engagement of at least two witnesses. The forum rules, though intended to engender peace in topical discussion, sometimes interfere directly with the work of God.

 

[lforrest]

I don't like to engage in personal conversation over 3rd parties as it amounts to taking sides (or factions), but sometimes dissenting opinions engage in the practice when those 3rd parties demonstrate obstinacy and an absence of grace. Rebukes should be as public as offenses when it comes to uninformed attacks on character and substance, and when a 3rd party becomes offended by a rebuke and responds with insult rather than repentance, biblical discipline requires the engagement of at least two witnesses. The forum rules, though intended to engender peace in topical discussion, sometimes interfere directly with the work of God.

It is your opinion that your doing God's work by responding to insults, not mine. As for discipline the only recourse you officially have is private messages, which you can invite third parties to BTW. Then there is the report button, to bring offences to our attention for editing, removal, or possible disciplinary action. A PM to one of the mods to bring to us your concerns about another member is also an option.

 

[StanJ]

I don't like to engage in personal conversation over 3rd parties as it amounts to taking sides (or factions), but sometimes dissenting opinions engage in the practice when those 3rd parties demonstrate obstinacy and an absence of grace. Rebukes should be as public as offenses when it comes to uninformed attacks on character and substance, and when a 3rd party becomes offended by a rebuke and responds with insult rather than repentance, biblical discipline requires the engagement of at least two witnesses. The forum rules, though intended to engender peace in topical discussion, sometimes interfere directly with the work of God.

As this isn't a church or a place where we can openly dicern who a person REALLY is, the rules are quite sufficient for anyone who has a submissive spirit.
Those who think they are above the authority here, or anywhere for that matter, are very evident and do need to be dealt with according to the rules, myself included. Sarcasm has NOTHING to do with the work of the Lord, only with the work of haughty spirits.

 

[michaelvpardo]

As this isn't a church or a place where we can openly dicern who a person REALLY is, the rules are quite sufficient for anyone who has a submissive spirit.
Those who think they are above the authority here, or anywhere for that matter, are very evident and do need to be dealt with according to the rules, myself included. Sarcasm has NOTHING to do with the work of the Lord, only with the work of haughty spirits.

When the apostle Paul addressed the Corinthian church (calling them kings and rulers) was he under inspiration or just a haughty spirit?
How about Elijah on Mt. Carmel asking if Baal was busy relieving himself?

 

[StanJ]

When the apostle Paul addressed the Corinthian church (calling them kings and rulers) was he under inspiration or just a haughty spirit?
How about Elijah on Mt. Carmel asking if Baal was busy relieving himself?

So you're now comparing yourself and your words to Paul & Elijah? :LOL:

 

[michaelvpardo]

So you're now comparing yourself and your words to Paul & Elijah? :lol:

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. James 5:17
Its not my fault that you don't believe the scripture that you study, but if you would have faith as small as a mustard seed you could know God and have a relationship with Him and be among those who are called the sons of God.

 

[lforrest]

While Elijah's nature is fascinating as one to whom this scripture applies John 3:8, it has nothing to do with the OP.

Consider this the last opportunity to return to the OP before the topic is closed.

 

[brakelite]

I believe...I am convinced...that the members on this forum, and likely any other Christian forum for that matter, do not come here to participate by being completely close-minded toward others understanding of God's truth. I do not believe people comment and discuss because they consider themselves the sole depository of truth, and believe it incumbent upon them to share that with others...or cajole others into submission to their ideas. I think we find friction because it is hard to wrench oneself away from deep seated beliefs and opinions. Even when faced with scripture, we tend to view it through the perspective of already accepted principles or traditional systems and like everyone in every walk of life, we are afraid to leave that which had formerly given us a sense of security and peace.
Thus we need to to be patient with one another...not presuming others' resistance to our ideas as being deliberately stubborn or being purposefully obnoxious, but give one another the benefit of the doubt, giving people time and allowing the Holy Spirit to work His way into their conscience and mind. I know Christians who have lived for 30 or 40 years with a spouse that was reluctant to accept the faith, though at a time past, like when they married, they were dedicated believers. One kept the faith, the partner fell away. Yet God holds the marriage together. The believing partner did not cajole the wife/husband concerning their ungodly state or lifestyle , but was patient, expressing the very same love, forgiveness and unconditional faithfulness that our heavenly Father shows us.
Disputes are inevitable, here and in marriage. It is how we settle those disputes and react to one another's foibles and character flaws, (and we all have them) that should set us apart from the world. Blocking another poster, or resorting to threats of law and banning, (not speaking of admin here) reminds me of the reaction of the Pharisees when Steven spoke so eloquently of truth and God's grace. They gnashed at him with their teeth and blocked their ears and stoned him. Sadly, we see that a lot in principle, here. I think we can do a lot better. I know we can. WE have the Spirit of the Almighty among us and in us, if we are Christ's. If not, those of us who are can show the way by being Christlike, patient, forgiving, and showing humility and mercy toward everyone. We have available to us the greatest power in the universe.
2 Corinthians 5: 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[brakelite]

So, that said, please, let not this thread die the death. I have found, when on topic, the discussion interesting, lively, and informative. Yes, there have been disagreements, but hey, we are talking about some very basic fundamental beliefs here...the nature of God, of Christ. A Father and Son whom we are told that if we get it wrong, we are antichrist. (See 1 John 2:22). So yep, it is a weighty subject, one that deserves our utmost respect, caution, patience, prayer, for we are assuredly touching holy ground.
Stan touched on an important truth a little earlier...on a forum we do not have the advantage of seeing one another face to face. We cannot judge body language, we cannot detect as well what others may be feeling...these pages can be fairly emotionless and impersonal so we do need to be more understanding toward one another.

1 John 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

 

[lforrest]

Well said brakelite. I hope now the topic is back on track with those words of wisdom.

 

[KingJ]

All that I can agree to. I have no argument, as I have repeatedly said, with the established fact that Jesus, because He is the only begotten Son of the Living God, is Himself therefore God.


My current doubt over the trinity does not remove in one jot or tittle my faith in the reality of the deity of Christ. Nor does it mean God isn't good...on the contrary, it glorifies the Father to an even greater extent for His most gracious and precious gift...His only begotten Son.
What folks do not realize is that because the deity of Christ was conferred upon Him by His Father, if Christ had sinned in even the slightest, Jesus would never have risen from the tomb. His divinity, His humanity, would have perished. And the human race would have also been lost forever. The Father would have remained in control of the remaining unfallen worlds, and mourned the passing of His Son for eternity. The risk that Jesus took was infinite. The love that they both revealed at Calvary was infinite...and they both agreed before the foundation of the world that man was worth that risk. Thanks and praise be to God for His love! What love!!!

I take it then that you do believe in the trinity just arrive at it differently to most. That is not unforgiveable ^_^. As we all agree with 1 Cor 12:3 (Jesus is Lord).

I don't agree with the speculation of Him failing or the human race being lost forever. God is not mad = Christianity 101. If I take it with your mindset of Jesus not at first being God....I would say He would have had more then He had before purely based on the fact of what He still attempted. God is a good judge.

Much like my absolutely solid question for non OSAS believers. Bear with me. If the thief on the cross can get a promise of heaven from a momentary decision to open his heart to Jesus.....yet we who have done that and more run the risk of losing our salvation from being kept in servitude to God on earth...? Makes no sense. If non OSAS was true we should all be praying to be taken out by a truck asap after a devout confession. But having said that non OSAS is forgiveable as God judges heart and mind at a level we can't. We can never be completely certain that we are in Christ. Especially if in unrepentant sins.

God loves His creation. Always has. Always will. God would always make a plan for us. What is interesting is that Jesus / God definitely dealt with a very real ''weak flesh'' issue. We see this in Him crying out 'Lord Lord why have you forsaken me + take this cup from me + 40 days in the wilderness'. So we can be forgiven for specualtion on Him failing. But what is interesting is that God still entrusted our salvation with Him. From before the foundations of the earth. I believe that God knew that He knew that He knew....that He loved us. He knew that He is love. He knew that His love for us would always win. This is now a strong argument for Jesus not ever being anyone else other then God from the very beginning. A random person is not ''''love''. God is love. Only God could have the absolute confidence of beating the flesh with love for us. I don't completely agree with how we read Genisis as a result. We read it as on the first day God made X. When we should start with ''before the first day God planned Jesus'' / As a result of His confidence in Jesus, on the first day He made X .