Is Jesus the Son of God....truly or metaphorically?

[brakelite]

I take it then that you do believe in the trinity just arrive at it differently to most. That is not unforgiveable ^_^. As we all agree with 1 Cor 12:3 (Jesus is Lord).

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I believe in the Father, and the Son. Because He is a Son of God, He is God. As any natural born son, Jesus inherited all the natural prerogatives, rights, attributes, of deity. Just as any royal prince is heir to the throne, so also is Jesus. (And incredibly, by adoption, we are co-heirs with Him. That just blows my mind, but I digress). What I disagree with most is that because Jesus is a Son, and because everything Jesus is, and has, came from the Father, then He cannot, in the pure sense of Father/Son relationships, be His Father's equal. Now many will agree with me that when He became a man, He voluntarily surrendered His glory and then submitted to His Father's headship. But I would add that it wasn't at Bethlehem that Jesus first became God's only begotten Son...Jesus has ever been in the bosom of His Father, thus has an eternal nature as Son...but became an only begotten Son at some point in the distant past, thus was a Son before even the foundation of the world, and could not be His Father's equal even then. Not until His Father made Jesus His equal, by giving Jesus all authority, power, wisdom, might, dominion, and yes, even Life itself. And the life that Jesus received from His Father is of the same nature as His Father's life...underived...eternal...self-supporting.
I have not yet fully touched on the nature of the Holy Spirit as yet, but short version is I do not accept the Spirit as being a separate being from the Father and Son. I will explain my position on that a little later...I am putting a study together on that now.

I don't agree with the speculation of Him failing or the human race being lost forever. God is not mad = Christianity 101. If I take it with your mindset of Jesus not at first being God....I would say He would have had more then He had before purely based on the fact of what He still attempted. God is a good judge.



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Jesus has always been the Son of His father, and therefore always God. But when He became a man, He came in the form of fallen flesh. (Romans 1:3,8:3.) Jesus literally died as a man. He died as a propitiation for us, dying the very same death we would have to die if we had not repented. That my friend is a death without hope of a resurrection. If He could not have possibly failed, then the temptations of the devil have no meaning. Jesus' victory over the flesh...over sin...also become meaningless and He ceases to become our example, but rather some unattainable divine person way beyond our finite comprehension and ultimately unreachable. But no, Jesus became truly one of us...one with us. He is truly our example...we can also in the same manner He did, overcome sin in this life. By uniting the human with the divine, victory is within our grasp.
2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Much like my absolutely solid question for non OSAS believers. Bear with me. If the thief on the cross can get a promise of heaven from a momentary decision to open his heart to Jesus.....yet we who have done that and more run the risk of losing our salvation from being kept in servitude to God on earth...? Makes no sense. If non OSAS was true we should all be praying to be taken out by a truck asap after a devout confession. But having said that non OSAS is forgiveable as God judges heart and mind at a level we can't. We can never be completely certain that we are in Christ. Especially if in unrepentant sins.

King, there is nothing more required of us than that the thief offered. Simple child-like faith. There is absolutely nothing more we can add to that. Our works, our witness, our good fruits...not one or any of these contribute one iota to our salvation. They are most assuredly evidence of our salvation, but they come after we are saved, not when we are saved. Do you understand the nature of love? Do you understand that without free will, love ceases to exist? Lobe plus coercion or force we call rape do we not? If God relinquishes our rights to choose Him, His love for us ceases to be love, and becomes the spiritual parallel to a forced devotion which is not in any sense of the word, love. This ability to choose does not go away when we become Christians. We will for all eternity have the freedom to chose to love, or not. In heaven, we will never change our minds. We will be so totally convinced of Gods' selfless love, we will never consider any other way of living than His. But as men and women still on this earth, still encumbered with the flesh, temptations, and the lusts of the eyes and the attractions of the world, there is always the possibility to allow ourselves to be taken in by the pleasures of this world, and leave behind our sacred heritage. Many verses in scripture warn of this. Even Jesus Himself knew the dangers the world presents, even to His own people. That is why He adjured all His followers to 'abide in the vine'...abide in Me'...with the clear warning that the alternative...letting go of Him, meant being barbecue fuel. He will never let go of us, so long as we remain faithful. But if in the unlikely event of someone deliberately turning away after having come to a knowledge of the Truth, like a pig to his mire and a dog to his vomit, he is in grave danger of losing his hold on Christ and falling away into apostasy. Anyway, enough of that...way off topic.

God loves His creation. Always has. Always will. God would always make a plan for us. What is interesting is that Jesus / God definitely dealt with a very real ''weak flesh'' issue. We see this in Him crying out 'Lord Lord why have you forsaken me + take this cup from me + 40 days in the wilderness'. So we can be forgiven for specualtion on Him failing. But what is interesting is that God still entrusted our salvation with Him. From before the foundations of the earth. I believe that God knew that He knew that He knew....that He loved us. He knew that He is love. He knew that His love for us would always win. This is now a strong argument for Jesus not ever being anyone else other then God from the very beginning. A random person is not ''''love''. God is love. Only God could have the absolute confidence of beating the flesh with love for us. I don't completely agree with how we read Genisis as a result. We read it as on the first day God made X. When we should start with ''before the first day God planned Jesus'' / As a result of His confidence in Jesus, on the first day He made X .

It is true that the Father would have known what was to transpire with Adam and Eve. And yes, I agree that is why He already had agreed with Jesus (not His name then) to allow Him to become our ransom. And the sacrifice was as much the Father's as it was the Son's. God felt every insult, every punch thrown, ever strike of the nails as they entered flesh, just as much as His Son. 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Jesus did not 'beat the flesh' in His own power. He did it the way we can...by faith in the power of God.

 

[StanJ]

I believe in the Father, and the Son. Because He is a Son of God, He is God.

Not what the scriptures says brakelite. How many times do I have to show these Scriptures to you?

Col 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 2:9-10
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.
Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[michaelvpardo]

How does an infinite, unlimited, eternal God, make His presence and person known to the creation that He made?
The answer of scripture is by His Spirit through the prophets, by His angels, and finally by His Son. In my mind, I find it difficult to distinguish the three as they are inseparably One. However, an understanding of space/time as explained mathematically by Mr. Albert Einstein allows me to see all three as equally eternal, equally God, and distinguished only by their subordination in the temporal. Does God judge us for the limitations of our understanding?
The Apostle Paul had been a blasphemer with a zeal for God that led him to seek out Christians for their execution, yet God made him a chosen vessel for the gospel to be given to gentile and Jew alike.

 

[Guestman]

That is JW heresy. Are you JW? Mounce, his son, Moo, Wallace and the VAST MAJORITY of recognized Greek scholars confirm the rendering as the NIV shows it.
The Koine Greek, IS properly rendered in many modern English translations. I challenge you to SHOW/CITE which Greek manuscript renders it as 'a god' or 'only begotten god'.

Is it "JW heresy" to show that Jesus is not God ? The two oldest Greek manuscripts, Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus of the 4th century C.E. attest to the words that Jesus is called "the only-begotten god" (Greek monogenes theos). It was in the 5th century that some began to alter the words of certain Scripture in order to supposedly find support for the Trinity, as found in the Codex Alexandrinus.


When words are altered or added, this is intentional corruption of Scripture for the sole purpose of bolstering the trinity or other wrong doctrines, just as the addition of the words "who is in heaven" at the end of John 3:13 by such Bibles as the Catholic Douay, King James Bible, Amplified Bible, and New King James Bible, to name a few. This phrase is added to provide supposed support for the trinity doctrine ( just as the words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the holy spirit; and these three are one” as if these were a quotation from 1 John 5:7) and is called intentional tampering.


One example of change that certain unscrupulous ones tried to bring about is their view that "the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up", citing 2 Peter 3:10 according to the King James Bible (that was based on 12th century and newer manuscripts that was available at the time of preparing the KJV. Even the Divine Name King James Bible of 2011 still holds to this rendering).


However, upon critical examination of some of the most ancient Bible manuscripts, such as the Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus of the 4th century C.E., it was found that it does not say that "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up", but that these "will be discovered".("discovered", Greek heurisko)


Around the beginning of the 5th century, the wording was changed to "shall be burned up"(Greek katakaesetai), with it being found in the 5th century manuscript the Codex Alexandrinus and the 16th century Clemetine recension of the Latin Vulgate.


Concerning Jesus not being God, he said to the Jews: "You know me and you know where I am from. And I have not come of my own initiative, but the One who sent me is real, and you do not know him. I know him, because I am a representative (Greek apostello, meaning to "send out on a mission") from him, and that One sent me("sent me", Greek apostello)".(John 7:28, 29)


Of John the Baptist, the apostle John wrote: "There came a man who was sent as a representative (Greek apostello, meaning to "send out on a mission") of God; his name was John".(John 1:6) Both Jesus and John were "sent from God" or that "One" and are thus not God, but his representatives.(see also John 9:7 as the meaning of apostello as the name of the pool called "Sent Forth" or the Hebrew Siloam)


Yet, the despite overwhelming evidence that Jesus is not God, but his "only-begotten Son" (John 3:16), it is as one religious opponent of William Tyndale said to him: "Better be without God's laws than the Pope's", to which Tyndale replied: "I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough shall know more of the Scripture than thou doest".


Many who are just ordinary people often have more of an accurate understanding and comprehension of the Bible than those who are the religious leaders of Christendom, such as grasping that the Trinity is not Scriptural.

 

[StanJ]

Is it "JW heresy" to show that Jesus is not God ? The two oldest Greek manuscripts, Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus of the 4th century C.E. attest to the words that Jesus is called "the only-begotten god" (Greek monogenes theos). It was in the 5th century that some began to alter the words of certain Scripture in order to supposedly find support for the Trinity, as found in the Codex Alexandrinus.


When words are altered or added, this is intentional corruption of Scripture for the sole purpose of bolstering the trinity or other wrong doctrines, just as the addition of the words "who is in heaven" at the end of John 3:13 by such Bibles as the Catholic Douay, King James Bible, Amplified Bible, and New King James Bible, to name a few. This phrase is added to provide supposed support for the trinity doctrine ( just as the words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the holy spirit; and these three are one” as if these were a quotation from 1 John 5:7) and is called intentional tampering.


One example of change that certain unscrupulous ones tried to bring about is their view that "the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up", citing 2 Peter 3:10 according to the King James Bible (that was based on 12th century and newer manuscripts that was available at the time of preparing the KJV. Even the Divine Name King James Bible of 2011 still holds to this rendering).


However, upon critical examination of some of the most ancient Bible manuscripts, such as the Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus of the 4th century C.E., it was found that it does not say that "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up", but that these "will be discovered".("discovered", Greek heurisko)


Around the beginning of the 5th century, the wording was changed to "shall be burned up"(Greek katakaesetai), with it being found in the 5th century manuscript the Codex Alexandrinus and the 16th century Clemetine recension of the Latin Vulgate.


Concerning Jesus not being God, he said to the Jews: "You know me and you know where I am from. And I have not come of my own initiative, but the One who sent me is real, and you do not know him. I know him, because I am a representative (Greek apostello, meaning to "send out on a mission") from him, and that One sent me("sent me", Greek apostello)".(John 7:28, 29)


Of John the Baptist, the apostle John wrote: "There came a man who was sent as a representative (Greek apostello, meaning to "send out on a mission") of God; his name was John".(John 1:6) Both Jesus and John were "sent from God" or that "One" and are thus not God, but his representatives.(see also John 9:7 as the meaning of apostello as the name of the pool called "Sent Forth" or the Hebrew Siloam)


Yet, the despite overwhelming evidence that Jesus is not God, but his "only-begotten Son" (John 3:16), it is as one religious opponent of William Tyndale said to him: "Better be without God's laws than the Pope's", to which Tyndale replied: "I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough shall know more of the Scripture than thou doest".


Many who are just ordinary people often have more of an accurate understanding and comprehension of the Bible than those who are the religious leaders of Christendom, such as grasping that the Trinity is not Scriptural.

A simple examination of the following website will dispel your prevarications. It doesn't say a God and it doesn't say begotten God it says only begotten of the Father. It would seem maybe your problem lies with your lack of understanding of the KJV? The NIV renders it as one and only Son.

http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=36&lid=en&side=r&zoomSlider=0

Are you also of the belief that Americans never landed on the moon in 1969?

 

[brakelite]

Not what the scriptures says brakelite. How many times do I have to show these Scriptures to you?

Col 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 2:9-10
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.
Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Stan, what are you on? I have repeated so many times I have lost count...Jesus is God! Now what on earth are you attempting to do by saying I am wrong, and then saying Jesus is God? Are you so in the habit of being disagreeable that you find it impossible to admit someone you don't like is right?

 

[brakelite]

How does an infinite, unlimited, eternal God, make His presence and person known to the creation that He made?
The answer of scripture is by His Spirit through the prophets, by His angels, and finally by His Son. In my mind, I find it difficult to distinguish the three as they are inseparably One. However, an understanding of space/time as explained mathematically by Mr. Albert Einstein allows me to see all three as equally eternal, equally God, and distinguished only by their subordination in the temporal. Does God judge us for the limitations of our understanding?
The Apostle Paul had been a blasphemer with a zeal for God that led him to seek out Christians for their execution, yet God made him a chosen vessel for the gospel to be given to gentile and Jew alike.

Hi Michael. Your first two sentences are spot on. "How does an infinite, unlimited, eternal God, make His presence and person known to the creation that He made?
The answer of scripture is by His Spirit through the prophets, by His angels, and finally by His Son".
By His Spirit is the key. God is Spirit. If we speak of His Spirit we cannot be speaking of another spirit entity...just as we speak of the Spirit of Christ, we cannot speak of another entity other than Christ Himself.
Paul says in Ephesians 4:4 that there is “one Spirit.” But the Bible speaks about the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ which involves two divine beings. So how then is there only one Spirit? The answer is something the majority miss because most have been indoctrinated with the Catholic idea of the Holy Spirit as another being rather than God's own Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the mind, power, character and personal presence of the very life of God that the Father sends through His Son to us. Or to put it another way to make sure this is clear. The Holy Spirit is the presence and power of the Father manifested through Jesus Christ His begotten son. This is not a separate person of the Godhead who is being sent, it is the very life of God coming to us through His Son.
Everything Christ received He inherited from His Father including His very own life which is self-existent as it came from the Father. “For as the Father has life in himself; so has he given to the Son to have life in himself.” John 5:26
But not only His life but Christ also received of His Fathers Spirit. Thus the Father and Son are one in Spirit, and that one Spirit proceeds from the Father and comes to us through His Son. This is why Paul equates the “Spirit of God” with the “Spirit of Christ” as it is the same one Spirit of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. And so we find that the Holy Spirit is the same Spirit whether it is spoken of as pertaining to God or Christ.
“But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Romans 8:9
Referring to the Holy Spirit, Paul says that Christ is that Spirit. “Now the Lord [Jesus] is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” 2 Corinthians 3:17
And further, while Paul wrote in Ephesians 4:4 that there is only one Spirit, he again tells us in Galatians 4:6 that this Spirit is the Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He received from His Father. So when you receive the Spirit of God, you receive the Spirit of His Son into your heart also. The Father did not send another individual. He sent the Spirit of His Son. “God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.” Galatians 4:6
Thus through the Spirit both the Father and Son come and make their abode in you. “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” John 14:23
And being one in Spirit gives us access to the Father through Christ our mediator. “For through him [Christ] we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.” Ephesians 2:18
So it is by the Holy Spirit that Christ lives in us. “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:” Galatians 2:20
The Spirit of Christ is our Comforter (parakletos) which also means “helper” and is translated as such in the NKJV, “For I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.” Philippians 1:19
Christ had also spoken through all the prophets. “Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.” 1 Peter 1:11
Christ has always partaken of the Spirit of God since He was begotten of the Father before anything they created. When Jesus was incarnated on earth 2000 years ago, He was full of that same Holy Spirit of God from His conception, and throughout His earthy sojourn as the Son of Man. After His resurrection and ascension to Heaven, He sent “another comforter” to earth to empower His people till the end of time, which was Himself in Spirit form. Only the Father and the Son can be present outside of their bodies throughout the Universe. Their Holy Spirit is the way in which they are omnipresent while also being physically present in the Heavenly Sanctuary as we speak. This is where the nascent Catholics made their mistakes when coming up with the incomprehensible doctrine of the trinity versus the plain word of God. In creating the trinity they philosophized when they should have left it alone as it is totally un-Scriptural.
“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.” 1 Corinthians 15:45-47
Here the Apostle Paul is talking about the two Adams. The first Adam was the first created man on earth who sinned by eating the forbidden fruit. The second (last) Adam is Christ who came to redeem us. Notice that Paul says that this One was made “a quickening spirit.” This is the other important thing about Christ. Not just His earthly human life, but also what happened after. In verse 46 Paul clarifies that the natural comes first and then the spiritual. This is exactly what happened with Jesus. He came to earth first as a man, ministered, ascended to Heaven, and then at Pentecost He came back in Spirit with mighty power! Both times was to instruct and sanctify His people, and that is the same purpose today. So the Holy Spirit of God the Father is now also the Spirit of Christ which point Paul confirms in verse 47. So “the Lord from Heaven” in verse 47 is the “quickening Spirit” of verse 45. It cannot be any clearer.

 

[michaelvpardo]

. It cannot be any clearer.

I suppose that your explanation is close to my understanding, but I think Trinitarian doctrine is also an attempt to reconcile scripture to itself. e.g. In Genesis we find one generic word for God (Elohim) used in places, such as the passage about the tower of Babel. I don't know much about Hebrew, other than what I can find in a concordance, but I understand that Elohim is the plural form of Elohe. Trinitarian doctrine deals with the plurality by making the discussion of man occur between the persons of the trinity (and its hard to object to that,) but we also find places in the OT where God mentions the angel which guides Israel through the wilderness as one who has his Spirit. Some would say that this refers to "the angel of the Lord," and the angel of the Lord is mentioned again as being above the pillar of fire/dark cloud during the Red sea crossing, again suggesting the possibility of more than one "being" present. Ezekiel's visions of the glory of God also include a retinue of angelic beings that accompany God at all times. While the angels are not other gods, the Lord allowed them to rule and gave them authority as such over men. We have the account of God's presence upon Mt. Sinai at the giving of the ten commandments, yet the book of Hebrews tells us that the law came to us through angels. We even have God telling Moses that he shall be as god to pharaoh when He sends Moses to bring the children of Israel out of Egypt. We are also told in scripture that heaven is God's abode, yet heaven is part of creation and God had to enter into creation to make heaven His home. I wouldn't say that any of this is clear, but it is reconcilable to the mind of man (which is far from infinite) through a Trinitarian doctrine. I don't like stepping outside of such doctrine, because in my experience, that's where the cults go. Please don't be offended as I'm not suggesting that your explanation is cultic, but as long as we can accept that God is the creator of all things, and that the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are all One God, I think that we remain on firm ground.
People start having difficulty when they see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as having different personalities or agendas. E.g.: I spoke once with one fellow who loved Jesus' teaching, but thought that the God of the Old Testament was too strict, avenging, etc. Such a view isn't monotheistic, but is born in ignorance and a lack of understanding. There are more than one person on these forums that seem to see Jesus as having come to change what was instituted by His Father, rather than being the completion of the Father's plan of redemption and the exact image of who He is.
I don't believe that God is offended by our limited understanding of Him as even a child can receive Him. We may fancy ourselves as having a more sophisticated view of His person than the ancients, but though we may understand the concept of the infinite, we remain finite and can't possibly comprehend infinity. Just the same, what good is understanding if it doesn't change who we are?
I remember one Pastor, who was in my opinion theologically sound, say that Jesus rebuked the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (after His resurrection) for being slow to understand all that the scripture said of Him, but the rebuke was actually about being slow to believe. That particular pastor was far more interested in the study of the scriptures than in leading the congregation and ended up taking another position which allowed him to concentrate on study of the word and preaching. His own bent led him to believe that drawing near to God was accomplished through the careful study of His word, while scripture itself suggests that God is far more concerned with our personal relationship with Him, founded upon belief in Him and obedience to His instruction. That is, we are commanded primarily to believe, and understanding comes as His gift (and to some more than to others.)

 

[michaelvpardo]

Is it "JW heresy" to show that Jesus is not God ?

Yes, since that heresy is the foundation of the cult.

 

[StanJ]

Stan, what are you on? I have repeated so many times I have lost count...Jesus is God! Now what on earth are you attempting to do by saying I am wrong, and then saying Jesus is God? Are you so in the habit of being disagreeable that you find it impossible to admit someone you don't like is right?

You said;

Because He is a Son of God, He is God.

I was attempting to give you the benefit of the doubt. I didn't say you were wrong I said that's not what the scripture says is, but according to what you said in the above quote, I'll say it now, YOU'RE WRONG!
I don't like or dislike you brakelite, you just seem to make a lot of erroneous comments that I have to address.

Jesus is not a son of God, Jesus is THE only begotten Son of God, and just because he is the son in the physical sense doesn't mean that he is not God as I've already shown you in the Scriptures are provided. He is NOT another God, He is the same God as His Father, and the Holy Spirit. Your 'sleight of hand', when it comes to using words, leaves me wondering all the time about your motivation and what you are not being forthright about.

 

[jaybird]

i never been a big fan of the trinity. i believe there may be truth in it but i am not sure i agree with the way its taught today.
when you look at Jesus teachings He puts a great deal of emphasis on the Father. sent by My Father, return to My Father, do the will of My Father etc. Jesus had a close oneness relationship with the Father. Jesus was specific about who this relationship was with, the Father and not a 3 being godhead. i believe this is what He was trying to teach us, to have this kind of closeness with the Father the way He did.

 

[StanJ]

i never been a big fan of the trinity. i believe there may be truth in it but i am not sure i agree with the way its taught today.
when you look at Jesus teachings He puts a great deal of emphasis on the Father. sent by My Father, return to My Father, do the will of My Father etc. Jesus had a close oneness relationship with the Father. Jesus was specific about who this relationship was with, the Father and not a 3 being godhead. i believe this is what He was trying to teach us, to have this kind of closeness with the Father the way He did.

Yes, and all of the references to 'Father', are from Jesus as the son. I don't know what you mean by as it's being taught today? The triune nature of God is something that is simply dealt with in the Bible and needs to be recognized by faith, not particularly by understanding. I've been saved since 1971 and it's not something that was easily understood in the beginning for me. It takes a while to understand all of God's Word and how it all fits together. Jesus had a particular mission and when he was here on earth. That mission was to be the Messiah, and to fulfill God's plan to usher in the New Covenant. As he indicated by his parabolic stories, he was not here to make things clear to believers but to bring about change in the faithful. Faith is not something that can be taught, it's something that you either have and grow with or you don't. It starts with God showing us who our Savior is and grows from there.
John one makes it very clear as to who God is and how he has the Word became flesh, that flesh being Jesus. If that's not what your understanding from whatever teaching your receiving is, of the Trinity, then I suggest you look elsewhere to learn about the Trinity. The triune nature of God is very evident throughout scripture and is evident in us as the human beings he created, and who were made in His image.

 

[jaybird]

Yes, and all of the references to 'Father', are from Jesus as the son. I don't know what you mean by as it's being taught today? The triune nature of God is something that is simply dealt with in the Bible and needs to be recognized by faith, not particularly by understanding. I've been saved since 1971 and it's not something that was easily understood in the beginning for me. It takes a while to understand all of God's Word and how it all fits together. Jesus had a particular mission and when he was here on earth. That mission was to be the Messiah, and to fulfill God's plan to usher in the New Covenant. As he indicated by his parabolic stories, he was not here to make things clear to believers but to bring about change in the faithful. Faith is not something that can be taught, it's something that you either have and grow with or you don't. It starts with God showing us who our Savior is and grows from there.
John one makes it very clear as to who God is and how he has the Word became flesh, that flesh being Jesus. If that's not what your understanding from whatever teaching your receiving is, of the Trinity, then I suggest you look elsewhere to learn about the Trinity. The triune nature of God is very evident throughout scripture and is evident in us as the human beings he created, and who were made in His image.

so Jesus the Son was not trying to teach us something with all those references to the Father?
and how would one test such a thing that could not be understood?

 

[brakelite]

i never been a big fan of the trinity. i believe there may be truth in it but i am not sure i agree with the way its taught today.
when you look at Jesus teachings He puts a great deal of emphasis on the Father. sent by My Father, return to My Father, do the will of My Father etc. Jesus had a close oneness relationship with the Father. Jesus was specific about who this relationship was with, the Father and not a 3 being godhead. i believe this is what He was trying to teach us, to have this kind of closeness with the Father the way He did.

I can empathize with you jaybird, for the scriptures themselves also teach us who our relationship is with.

1 John 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Very difficult, even impossible, to discern any hint of a trinity in these statements from the word regarding the identity of the Godhead. God the Father, and His Son, Jesus. Any reference in scripture to the Holy Spirit , I mean ANY reference, is devoid of any irrefutable incontrovertible connection to a third being of equal co-eternal consubstantial nature as the Father and Son. On the contrary, a great many of hose same references of the Holy Spirit declare clearly that any connection at all is with either Jesus or the Father...such as Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of God.
How does the Father send Jesus to us? Is it Jesus in flesh or in Spirit?Or is it through a third party...aka the 3rd person of the trinity...?
Galatians 4:6
"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
Really, how can a third party who is not a son, testify and cry Abba Father? Only the Spirit of the Son can do that.

 

[jaybird]

I can empathize with you jaybird, for the scriptures themselves also teach us who our relationship is with.

1 John 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Very difficult, even impossible, to discern any hint of a trinity in these statements from the word regarding the identity of the Godhead. God the Father, and His Son, Jesus. Any reference in scripture to the Holy Spirit , I mean ANY reference, is devoid of any irrefutable incontrovertible connection to a third being of equal co-eternal consubstantial nature as the Father and Son. On the contrary, a great many of hose same references of the Holy Spirit declare clearly that any connection at all is with either Jesus or the Father...such as Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of God.
How does the Father send Jesus to us? Is it Jesus in flesh or in Spirit?Or is it through a third party...aka the 3rd person of the trinity...?
Galatians 4:6
"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
Really, how can a third party who is not a son, testify and cry Abba Father? Only the Spirit of the Son can do that.

i agree with you on the Holy Spirit. i think its the power of the Almighty. if you were standing outside and He wanted to turn you 90 degrees to look at a specific object, He may do this by the Holy Spirit. but its still the All High and not an additional person doing the moving. Jesus has authority to speak for His Father therefore the Son has the privilege to call on the Father to send His spirit (from the Father) to guide us.

 

[StanJ]

so Jesus the Son was not trying to teach us something with all those references to the Father, and how would one test such a thing that could not be understood?

Jesus did teacher with all the references he made to the Father. He taught us that he was the son of God. Inferring anything else to that is where people start to go wrong. Heb 1:3 teaches us about the hypostatic nature of Jesus. It is not something easily understood, but it is something that is easily acceptable by faith. Jesus is the exact representation of God. He is triune in nature just as God is. He fulfills what the Gospel of John teaches in chapter 1 vs 1 - 14. Jesus didn't come to test anybody, he came to bring salvation to the lost sheep of Israel. Those that believed we're saved, and those that didn't believe we're not saved. That is the simplicity of the gospel. The only test involved in Jesus' words, is whether or not you believe them and accept them.

 

[StanJ]

i agree with you on the Holy Spirit. i think its the power of the Almighty. if you were standing outside and He wanted to turn you 90 degrees to look at a specific object, He may do this by the Holy Spirit. but its still the All High and not an additional person doing the moving. Jesus has authority to speak for His Father therefore the Son has the privilege to call on the Father to send His spirit (from the Father) to guide us.

The Holy Spirit is a comforter or advocate just like Jesus was. He said the father would send another comforter. Jesus was the first comforter. There is not more than one God, as the Shema teaches us. John 14:16

 

[jaybird]

Jesus did teacher with all the references he made to the Father. He taught us that he was the son of God. Inferring anything else to that is where people start to go wrong. Heb 1:3 teaches us about the hypostatic nature of Jesus. It is not something easily understood, but it is something that is easily acceptable by faith. Jesus is the exact representation of God. He is triune in nature just as God is. He fulfills what the Gospel of John teaches in chapter 1 vs 1 - 14. Jesus didn't come to test anybody, he came to bring salvation to the lost sheep of Israel. Those that believed we're saved, and those that didn't believe we're not saved. That is the simplicity of the gospel. The only test involved in Jesus' words, is whether or not you believe them and accept them.

i didnt mean to suggest Jesus was testing us or we are to test Jesus. Jesus warns of false teachers, false teachings, and those that would teach in His name. the bible teaches to "test all things" in the manners of false teachers.
i am not saying the trinity is a false teaching, i believe there is truth to it. but being as it is a man made doctrine i think its wise to test such things against scripture.
you said to have faith in such matters that some may not understand. i think we should have faith in what the bible teaches. i have faith Jesus was sent by the Father. i can not prove it happened but i have faith that it happened.
i dont think the bible teaches we should put faith in doctrines of man that cant be supported with scripture or conflict with scripture.

 

[StanJ]

i didnt mean to suggest Jesus was testing us or we are to test Jesus. Jesus warns of false teachers, false teachings, and those that would teach in His name. the bible teaches to "test all things" in the manners of false teachers.
i am not saying the trinity is a false teaching, i believe there is truth to it. but being as it is a man made doctrine i think its wise to test such things against scripture.
you said to have faith in such matters that some may not understand. i think we should have faith in what the bible teaches. i have faith Jesus was sent by the Father. i can not prove it happened but i have faith that it happened.
i dont think the bible teaches we should put faith in doctrines of man that cant be supported with scripture or conflict with scripture.

Okay, but your words indicated otherwise. Yes Jesus does warn us about false teachings and throughout the New Testament we are warned about false teachers. The only way to know something is false and to come against it, is to know the Bible, the inspired Word of God. David said, "Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee." So if one wants to teach against false teaching, one has to understand what the false teaching is and exactly what the Bible says to refute it. Just stating that something is man made doctrine does not make it wrong because as Christians we live by right doctrine as Paul also indicates in 2 Timothy 3:16.
Indeed have faith in the Bible, but that faith includes knowledge. If one doesn't know about all the things in the Bible, then one cannot say what is lacking in the Bible and therefore conclude that the Bible is wrong because it's lacking something. The Bible lacks nothing, and contains all that we require to know about God and Jesus. The Bible does indeed teach they are one in the same, and there are many verses to teach that in the New Testament. If you don't know what they are, then please say so and I will supply you with a dozen or so main ones.

 

[brakelite]

The Holy Spirit is a comforter or advocate just like Jesus was. He said the father would send another comforter. Jesus was the first comforter. There is not more than one God, as the Shema teaches us. John 14:16

So, who is this "other" comforter, and who was the first Comforter?



John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Isaiah 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
Father and Son is our COMFORT.
2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
But since the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father, we get both!
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loves me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
1 John 2:1 If any man sin, we have a Comforter with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous..
Some other Bible translations says Advocate. Same meaning as the Comforter.
John 14:16-17 ...'And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless. I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Now let's examine who is the Comforter? If you read John 14:16 -17 very carefully. He said I WILL COME TO YOU. Then, end of the verse He said I IN YOU.
"Another Comforter" in Greek is allos parakletos(para=beside, kletos=one who comes)
That is, "one who comes to stand beside" Advocate, Intercessor, Helper, Standby.
Jesus is the Truth even the Spirit of truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
Christ is known as the Comforter. His Spirit in us.
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Romans 8:9 ...'But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have notthe Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.'
1 Peter 1:11 ...'Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was IN them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.'
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what isthe riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Advocate, that he may abide with you forever. John 14:16.
This is, in fact, Christ’s parting words: Lo, I am with you always even unto the end of the world. Matt 28:20.
But the Advocate is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name. John 14:26.
How does the Father send this Advocate in the name of Jesus?
He calls him the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
Phil 1:19 - Spirit of Christ
Rom 8:9; 1 Pet 1:11 - Spirit of the Lord
Acts 5:9; Acts 8:39; 2 Cor 3:17 - Spirit of the Lord
Gal 4:6 - Spirit of His Son
Isa 9:6 - His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor
But when the Advocate is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. John 15:26.
If I go not away, the Advocate will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you” John 16:7. The Father sends the Advocate and Jesus sends the Advocate. Both the Father and the Son come as the Advocate and “make our abode with him” that keeps God’s commandments. John 14:23
The next verse becomes more clear.
And if any man sin, we have a Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1John 2:1
Jesus said, I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:18
He is the Comforter; He will come to us. Yes, He comes in another form, not in His humanity. He comes in the Spirit; His own Holy Spirit..
1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me