B
brakelite
Guest
I believe in the Father, and the Son. Because He is a Son of God, He is God. As any natural born son, Jesus inherited all the natural prerogatives, rights, attributes, of deity. Just as any royal prince is heir to the throne, so also is Jesus. (And incredibly, by adoption, we are co-heirs with Him. That just blows my mind, but I digress). What I disagree with most is that because Jesus is a Son, and because everything Jesus is, and has, came from the Father, then He cannot, in the pure sense of Father/Son relationships, be His Father's equal. Now many will agree with me that when He became a man, He voluntarily surrendered His glory and then submitted to His Father's headship. But I would add that it wasn't at Bethlehem that Jesus first became God's only begotten Son...Jesus has ever been in the bosom of His Father, thus has an eternal nature as Son...but became an only begotten Son at some point in the distant past, thus was a Son before even the foundation of the world, and could not be His Father's equal even then. Not until His Father made Jesus His equal, by giving Jesus all authority, power, wisdom, might, dominion, and yes, even Life itself. And the life that Jesus received from His Father is of the same nature as His Father's life...underived...eternal...self-supporting.KingJ said:I take it then that you do believe in the trinity just arrive at it differently to most. That is not unforgiveable ^_^. As we all agree with 1 Cor 12:3 (Jesus is Lord).
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I have not yet fully touched on the nature of the Holy Spirit as yet, but short version is I do not accept the Spirit as being a separate being from the Father and Son. I will explain my position on that a little later...I am putting a study together on that now.
Jesus has always been the Son of His father, and therefore always God. But when He became a man, He came in the form of fallen flesh. (Romans 1:3,8:3.) Jesus literally died as a man. He died as a propitiation for us, dying the very same death we would have to die if we had not repented. That my friend is a death without hope of a resurrection. If He could not have possibly failed, then the temptations of the devil have no meaning. Jesus' victory over the flesh...over sin...also become meaningless and He ceases to become our example, but rather some unattainable divine person way beyond our finite comprehension and ultimately unreachable. But no, Jesus became truly one of us...one with us. He is truly our example...we can also in the same manner He did, overcome sin in this life. By uniting the human with the divine, victory is within our grasp.KingJ said:I don't agree with the speculation of Him failing or the human race being lost forever. God is not mad = Christianity 101. If I take it with your mindset of Jesus not at first being God....I would say He would have had more then He had before purely based on the fact of what He still attempted. God is a good judge.
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2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
King, there is nothing more required of us than that the thief offered. Simple child-like faith. There is absolutely nothing more we can add to that. Our works, our witness, our good fruits...not one or any of these contribute one iota to our salvation. They are most assuredly evidence of our salvation, but they come after we are saved, not when we are saved. Do you understand the nature of love? Do you understand that without free will, love ceases to exist? Lobe plus coercion or force we call rape do we not? If God relinquishes our rights to choose Him, His love for us ceases to be love, and becomes the spiritual parallel to a forced devotion which is not in any sense of the word, love. This ability to choose does not go away when we become Christians. We will for all eternity have the freedom to chose to love, or not. In heaven, we will never change our minds. We will be so totally convinced of Gods' selfless love, we will never consider any other way of living than His. But as men and women still on this earth, still encumbered with the flesh, temptations, and the lusts of the eyes and the attractions of the world, there is always the possibility to allow ourselves to be taken in by the pleasures of this world, and leave behind our sacred heritage. Many verses in scripture warn of this. Even Jesus Himself knew the dangers the world presents, even to His own people. That is why He adjured all His followers to 'abide in the vine'...abide in Me'...with the clear warning that the alternative...letting go of Him, meant being barbecue fuel. He will never let go of us, so long as we remain faithful. But if in the unlikely event of someone deliberately turning away after having come to a knowledge of the Truth, like a pig to his mire and a dog to his vomit, he is in grave danger of losing his hold on Christ and falling away into apostasy. Anyway, enough of that...way off topic.KingJ said:Much like my absolutely solid question for non OSAS believers. Bear with me. If the thief on the cross can get a promise of heaven from a momentary decision to open his heart to Jesus.....yet we who have done that and more run the risk of losing our salvation from being kept in servitude to God on earth...? Makes no sense. If non OSAS was true we should all be praying to be taken out by a truck asap after a devout confession. But having said that non OSAS is forgiveable as God judges heart and mind at a level we can't. We can never be completely certain that we are in Christ. Especially if in unrepentant sins.
It is true that the Father would have known what was to transpire with Adam and Eve. And yes, I agree that is why He already had agreed with Jesus (not His name then) to allow Him to become our ransom. And the sacrifice was as much the Father's as it was the Son's. God felt every insult, every punch thrown, ever strike of the nails as they entered flesh, just as much as His Son. 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.KingJ said:God loves His creation. Always has. Always will. God would always make a plan for us. What is interesting is that Jesus / God definitely dealt with a very real ''weak flesh'' issue. We see this in Him crying out 'Lord Lord why have you forsaken me + take this cup from me + 40 days in the wilderness'. So we can be forgiven for specualtion on Him failing. But what is interesting is that God still entrusted our salvation with Him. From before the foundations of the earth. I believe that God knew that He knew that He knew....that He loved us. He knew that He is love. He knew that His love for us would always win. This is now a strong argument for Jesus not ever being anyone else other then God from the very beginning. A random person is not ''''love''. God is love. Only God could have the absolute confidence of beating the flesh with love for us. I don't completely agree with how we read Genisis as a result. We read it as on the first day God made X. When we should start with ''before the first day God planned Jesus'' / As a result of His confidence in Jesus, on the first day He made X .
Jesus did not 'beat the flesh' in His own power. He did it the way we can...by faith in the power of God.