Is Satan In Heaven?

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tomwebster

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One more thought:Satan is not being held in chains now. He is held in chains when he is placed in the pit during the millennium. At that time he can no longer go "to and fro." When he is "letteth," 2 thes. he is able to usurp the "first chair" for a short while.
 

TeaTephi

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QUOTE (tomwebster @ Apr 18 2009, 01:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72743
Polar, Let's continue looking atv several verses:2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed(G601) in his time. G601ἀποκαλύπτωapokaluptōap-ok-al-oop'-toFrom G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.G575ἀπόapoapo'A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.G2572καλύπτωkaluptōkal-oop'-toAkin to G2813 and G2928; to cover up (literally or figuratively): - cover, hide.No portion of the word ἀποκαλύπτω "apokaluptō" means "let go", no portion of it!Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. And I know you do not believe Heaven is in the sky.
IF I may interject, the Strongs defined the word HIGH as "in heaven". HIGH is NT:2032epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:1909 and NT:3772; above the sky: KJV - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.Not my words! But I do believe what I'm reading.QUOTE (tomwebster @ Apr 18 2009, 01:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72743
Let's look at 2 Thes 2:6-7 some more.2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdethG2722 that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now lettethG2722 G737 will let, until he be taken out of the way. "Withholdeth" and "letteth" are the same Greek word, G2722 and "will let" was added, it is not there in Greek Scripture.
Ok so, so far the translators are translating the Greek words correctly. Witholdeth means to hold, right?Bullinger's notes on this verse in the Companion Bible explain:Letteth = Holds Fast. Gr. katecho, as v.6 Supply the Ellipsis by "there is one who holds fast", instead of by repeating the verb "will let". But katecho is a transitive verb, and an object must be supllied too. See all the occurrences verse 6. If the subject be Satan, the object MUST be his position in the heavenlies (Eph. 6:12), from which he will be ejected by Michael (Rev. 12:7-9)(emphasis mine)Out of the way = out of the midst. Compare the same expression in Acts 17:33; 23:10 1 Cor. 5:2 2 Cor. 6:17 Col. 2:14The words "will let" were supplied by the translators BECAUSE the verb "letteth" is TRANSITIVE (requires an object). THAT can be translated TWO ways eitherA) the way they did it by adding "will let" , orB ) by adding the words "there is" AND adding WHO will be let go, i.e. "satan" and from WHERE (HEAVEN).QUOTE (tomwebster @ Apr 18 2009, 01:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72743
More on vs. 7:2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now lettethG2722 G737 will let, until he be taken out of the way. G737ἄρτιartiar'-teeAdverb from a derivative of G142 (compare G740) through the idea of suspension; just now: - this day (hour), hence [-forth], here [-after], hither [-to], (even) now, (this) present.This is NOT chains. Satan remains in his rightful position (of authority) beneath, under) Christ. Satan remains in that place, under Christ and he is held there by Michael, in suspension. Not in chains behind Christ, but in the place of authority below, under Christ. And Michael does not need to be there guarding Satan 24 hours a day. And Satan is able to move around, (to and fro) and still be held in his rightful place of authority. Satan has not taken the "first chair."G142 is part of G737 so I am including it.G142αἴρωairōah'ee-roA primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).
Whether satan is held by CHAINS or ROPE or WHATEVER we are not told how he is HELD, but that he is indeed HELD in one place. You could even say "suspended". Something suspended doesn't roam to and fro! Have you ever seen a suspension bridge roam to and fro? NO! Because the word "suspended" means to be HELD COMPLETELY STILL. This verse says Michael is HOLDING satan in suspension, UNTIL it is his time to be revealed, when Michael finally let's go. Hence the SILENCE in HEAVEN ( space of half an hour) Rev. 8, the WOE TO the inhabitants of the earth (devil has a SHORT time) Rev 12:7-97 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in HEAVEN.9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him.So here we have all the actors in the play and we have the locations (heaven and earth). The gospel that we preach should contain the MYSTERY!Rom 16:2525 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,Preaching where satan is and WHEN he is coming IS preaching the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY. This is the Gospel the elect are preaching. This is the Gospel by which we are taught. This is the Gospel with the SOLID foundation of the ROCK of Christ.This Gospel has POWER TO ESTABLISH YOU!
 

tomwebster

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We are not going to agree on this and a number of other similar subjects, so I am not going to send a lot of time trying to convince you. I do want to clarify something because you do not understand at least one of the points I am trying to make. I might also come back to Ephesians 6:12 and Rev 12.Going back to my post # 13 and my post # 41:Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get(G5217) thee behind(G3694) me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. G5217 "get = to lead (oneself) under, that is, withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sightThe word "place" does not mean "a specific location, the basement, heaven, the pit, etc.By "place" I mean "get to a subordinate position under me." To put this in another way, In a business you will have a CEO (Christ), He is in charge. Everyone else, even those in managerial positions are subordinate to the CEO. They are in that position in the company. They don't really need to be physically "held" by someone but if they are trying to take over the company by hostile action maybe someone will be given the task of watching them, keeping an eye on them. Satan has all ready been defeated in a battle by Michael (and his soldiers). Michael threw Satan out of his position as one of the protecting angels. This battle happened towards the end of the first earth age (Ezekiel and Rev 12.)To look at Ephesians 6: 10-12 for a moment.Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high (G2032) places. be strong in the Lord... For we wrestle ... against spiritual wickedness in high (G2032) placesIs there a lot of spiritual wickedness in heaven, or are "we wrestling" against wickedness in places of idolatrous worship (see the diferent uses of the phrase "high places" listed below.High PlacesA term used to describe places of worshipGen_12:8; Gen_22:2; Gen_22:14; Gen_31:54; 1Sa_9:12; 2Sa_24:25; 1Ki_3:2; 1Ki_3:4; 1Ki_18:30; 1Ki_18:38; 1Ch_16:39; 2Ch_1:3; 2Ch_33:17Signify a place of idolatrous worshipNum_22:41; 1Ki_11:7; 1Ki_12:31; 1Ki_14:23; 1Ki_15:14; 1Ki_22:43; 2Ki_17:9; 2Ki_17:29; Jer_7:31Licentious practices atEzek 16:24-43The idolatrous, to be destroyedLev_26:30; Num_33:52Asa destroys2Ch_14:3Jehoshaphat destroys2Ch_17:6Hezekiah destroys2Ki_18:4Josiah destroys2Ki_23:8Revelation 12: 1-12, is a parenthetical chapter and took place much earlier. See my comments on Michael's battle with Satan. I don't want to go too far into Rev 12 because it will take us in a different direction that needs its own topic. Just briefly here then look for a longer explanation in another place
 

Vickie

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QUOTE (TeaTephi @ Apr 18 2009, 01:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72746
Rom 16:2525 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,Preaching where satan is and WHEN he is coming IS preaching the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY. This is the Gospel the elect are preaching. This is the Gospel by which we are taught. This is the Gospel with the SOLID foundation of the ROCK of Christ.This Gospel has POWER TO ESTABLISH YOU!
Hello, I would like to make a comment on Satan and 2 Thess. 2:9 The coming of the Lawless one/Son of Perdition, will be in accordance with the works of Satan. Displayed in allkinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders. This is describing what is better said in Rev. 13:2 It says the coming of the Lawless on WILL BE IN ACCORDANCE "with the WORKS" of SATAN. Revelation 13:2 says Satan will give this 8King the beast his powers and throne and authority for one hour along with the other kings Rev. 17:12 says. Satan has given this 8th king his powers for this hour of darkness upon the earth. This is what 2 Thess 2:9 is referencing. The Son of Perditons's power and drive will be in accordance to the works of Satan. Daniel 7:23 is a 4th kingdom soon appearing on the earth and it will devour the WHOLE EARTH. We are coming under attack, us Saints against a man who kingdom has been given to him and 6 other kings who will be a part of it. It is a time of woe we Christians have not known, and we he is revealed here shortly, for it is in the making now, when he is revealed a great falling away will occur. In my opinion, He is perhaps some one who has been raised from the Dead for he was killed with the sword and given a heart of flesh as Rev 13:12 says. We all can only speculate for God has told us he has not been revealed yet and we can all guess till the sun isn't shinning anymore, and not one of us know who he is, but we do have the words telling us he is an 8th king, with 6 other kings and they destroy the earth for a period of 7 yrs. As Our President is making amends with Cuba, Germany, Russia Syria, Iraq, and many more who are in agreement with him, and siding with our country. I believe we are going to see this unfold in front of us pretty quick and see many killed and others taken into captivity. Fulfiling all that has been written in the bible concerning this time we are entering into. My our Lord be merciful to all of us. Vickie Vickie
 

TeaTephi

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View attachment 9QUOTE (tomwebster @ Apr 18 2009, 11:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72757
We are not going to agree on this and a number of other similar subjects, so I am not going to send a lot of time trying to convince you. I do want to clarify something because you do not understand at least one of the points I am trying to make. I might also come back to Ephesians 6:12 and Rev 12.Going back to my post # 13 and my post # 41:Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get(G5217) thee behind(G3694) me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
I agree. We have both made our points, it's up to the reader, I guess, and how they feel about it.I understand your point here , I just feel there is more emphasis on the verb (with a literal translation) when spoken directly to satan (during the temptation).I looked up the word 5217 in the Greek Lexicon and it yielded some interesting connotations to the word "get" which is rather detached from emotion in English.In the Greek Septuagint this Greek word 5217 was used when God parted the waters at the Exodus. See the first part of the definition in the picture.
"He CAUSED to recede, drove back, the sea"​
What a tremendous show of power for such a little word!The next part of the definition in the lexicon is "to withdraw oneself, to go away, depart" ref is Luke 8:42 For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.Again he "went" (his only daughter lay dying). Add urgency, determination, and force. He was desperate!! He didn't just "go". He pushed, he ran, he WENT!Through Rain, sleet, or snow (we'd say) we're going!If he had to part the waters of a mighty river he was going!In another verse Christ speaks of "Going" to another PLACE:John 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. Jhn 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.Little word. Life changing meaning. He WENT TO a place, specifically a place where FLESH could not go.So you can see this word didn't mean just to "go", but with momentous force, fortitude, and purpose to "GO"!Now, when Christ commanded satan to "go", I can imagine that satan didn't have any will, agreeance to "GO" anywhere. As the definition above states that it is used to "lead oneself".I don't think the waters of the REd sea lead themselves to part. GOD lead them!I am reminded:Mar 3:23 And he called them [unto him], and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?How can satan LEAD Himself away?
 

tomwebster

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QUOTE (TeaTephi @ Apr 19 2009, 10:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72792
I understand your point here , I just feel there is more emphasis on the verb (with a literal translation) when spoken directly to satan (during the temptation).
The word in Matthew 4:10, is the same Greek word as the word in Matthew 16:23:Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence (G5217) , Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. υπαγε (G5217 V-PAM-2S )Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get (G5217) thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. υπαγε (G5217 V-PAM-2S)G5217ὑπάγωhupagōhoop-ag'-oFrom G5259 and G71; to lead (oneself) under, that is, withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), literally or figuratively: - depart, get hence, go (a-) way.Same words, used the same way, meaning the same thing."get to your subordinate position under me." It wasn't Satan's choice, he didn't have a vote. He didn't have to lead himself away. The position was Christ's. Again it's like the Presidency and vice-Presidency, the vice-president cannot switch places without the President allowing him to. The vice president is in the subordinate seat period. He does not have to lead himself to it. He does not have to be held in it, with chains or a rope, it's his place.
 

BenTobijah

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QUOTE (tomwebster @ Apr 18 2009, 12:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72743
Polar, Let's continue looking atv several verses:2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed(G601) in his time. G601ἀποκαλύπτωapokaluptōap-ok-al-oop'-toFrom G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.G575ἀπόapoapo'A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.G2572καλύπτωkaluptōkal-oop'-toAkin to G2813 and G2928; to cover up (literally or figuratively): - cover, hide.No portion of the word ἀποκαλύπτω "apokaluptō" means "let go", no portion of it!Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. And I know you do not believe Heaven is in the sky.Let's look at 2 Thes 2:6-7 some more.2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdethG2722 that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now lettethG2722 G737 will let, until he be taken out of the way. "Withholdeth" and "letteth" are the same Greek word, G2722 and "will let" was added, it is not there in Greek Scripture.G2722κατέχωkatechōkat-ekh'-oFrom G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively): - have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.G2596κατάkatakat-ah'A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from . . . to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), . . . by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.G2192ἔχωechōekh'-oA primary verb (including an alternate form σχέω scheō skheh'-o used in certain tenses only); to hold (used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote; such as possession, ability, contiguity, relation or condition): - be (able, X hold, possessed with), accompany, + begin to amend, can (+ -not), X conceive, count, diseased, do, + eat, + enjoy, + fear, following, have, hold, keep, + lack, + go to law, lie, + must needs, + of necessity, + need, next, + recover, + reign, + rest, return, X sick, take for, + tremble, + uncircumcised, use.More on vs. 7:2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now lettethG2722 G737 will let, until he be taken out of the way. vs 7 in Greek:2Th 2:7 τὸ γὰρ μυστήριον ἤδη ἐνεργεῖται τῆς ἀνομίας, μόνον ὁ κατέχων ἄρτι ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται· vs 7 in Greek with Strong's numbers added: (I have also added the part of speech for each Greek word) We are looking at this word or actually set of words: lettethG2722 G7372Th 2:7 τοG3588 T-NSN γαρG1063 CONJ μυστηριονG3466 N-NSN ηδηG2235 ADV ενεργειταιG1754 V-PMI-3S τηςG3588 T-GSF ανομιαςG458 N-GSF μονονG3440 ADV οG3588 T-NSM κατεχωνG2722 V-PAP-NSM αρτιG737 ADV εωςG2193 ADV εκG1537 PREP μεσουG3319 A-GSN γενηταιG1096 V-2ADS-3S We have all read looked at G2722, how about G737:G737ἄρτιartiar'-teeAdverb from a derivative of G142 (compare G740) through the idea of suspension; just now: - this day (hour), hence [-forth], here [-after], hither [-to], (even) now, (this) present.This is NOT chains. Satan remains in his rightful position (of authority) beneath, under) Christ. Satan remains in that place, under Christ and he is held there by Michael, in suspension. Not in chains behind Christ, but in the place of authority below, under Christ. And Michael does not need to be there guarding Satan 24 hours a day. And Satan is able to move around, (to and fro) and still be held in his rightful place of authority. Satan has not taken the "first chair."G142 is part of G737 so I am including it.G142αἴρωairōah'ee-roA primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).
tomwebster,I have often questioned the teaching that Satan was “locked in Heaven” when Christ told him, “get behind me,” your study makes a lot more sense. Satan is subordinate to Christ and cannot steo into the leadership role until his time. That time is coming soon.You also have a good handle on the Greek, good for you. Not many Pastors understand the Greek.
 

TeaTephi

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QUOTE (TeaTephi @ Apr 19 2009, 11:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72792
View attachment 9I agree. We have both made our points, it's up to the reader, I guess, and how they feel about it.I understand your point here , I just feel there is more emphasis on the verb (with a literal translation) when spoken directly to satan (during the temptation).
I think an additional thought to my point is that the word "Get thee" (or go) actually means to physically move your body to another actual physical location. It is important not to overlook the simple meaning of the word, which was literally to "go" or "move yourself".In almost 80 times this word is used, it meant to PHYSICALLY MOVE IT! And GO somewhere specific and literal.I actually read each verse in the Strongs, and to translate it "figuratively" would be a complete abnormal usage of the word.Let's look at a simple understanding of the various meanings of "GO" in English:Main Entry: goPart of Speech: verbDefinition: advance, proceed physicallySynonyms: abscond, approach, beat it*, bug out, cruise, decamp, depart, escape, exit, fare, flee, fly, get away, get going, get lost, hie, hightail, hit the road*, journey, lam, leave, light out*, make a break for it, make for, make one's way, mosey*, move, move out, near, pass, progress, pull out, push off, push on, quit, repair, retire, run along, run away, set off, shove off*, skip out, split*, take a hike, take a powder, take flight, take leave, take off*, travel, vamoose*, wend, withdrawThe various BOLD words imply an emphatic or intense form of the word "GO".This is the reason "GO" in "Get thee behind Me, Satan" is used because it means exactly what the word "Go" means even in English (our understanding).In Greek it is that and more. More emphatic. I would say "Vamoose" is probably the closest to the intensity in which is used, in addition to a specified location. Here the specified location is "behind Me". Of course satan has less authority than Christ, but the specified location would also be required if we are to be consistent in the translation of the word.To say that the word doesn't mean "to go somewhere" in its most basic understanding, and to say that the word is used DIFFERENTLY than every other usage is to TAKE away from it's meaning.Then what are words for if they don't mean what they mean? Why even bother saying something, if someone is going to take its meaning and turn it on its head?This doesn't make any sense to me, and seems quite counterproductive to the purpose of interpretation and translation.Especially, Biblical interpretation and translation, one must first understand the basic meaning of the word, and then add emphasis and inflections based on USAGE AND CONTEXT.Without noting USAGE and CONTEXT you still are not translating correctly, both must be duly noted.Note that almost EVERY time it speaks of physically going to a New, or different specified location. I can't list every Scripture here because it would belabour the point a little too much, but needless to say, it should be considered and reflected upon.In addition to context and usage, we also have DOCTRINE, which supports the translation in OTHER Scriptures, which have also been quoted and explained above (mainly II Thess. 2 and Revelation 9, & 12 etc. etc.)Given the above facts and common rules of translation, there is only one conclusion to be drawn, and it accords withRev 12:7-97 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in HEAVEN.9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him.Satan is in heaven until Michael casts him out.
 

BenTobijah

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tomwebster,I see this the same way you do. Some people have the their minds "locked and loaded" all ready and I'm not going to be able to get them to check to see if there powder is dry.Best wishes wherever you are, maybe we can meet up next year at Passover.
 

Christina

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QUOTE (BenTobijah @ Apr 24 2009, 06:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72962
tomwebster,I see this the same way you do. Some people have the their minds "locked and loaded" all ready and I'm not going to be able to get them to check to see if there powder is dry.Best wishes wherever you are, maybe we can meet up next year at Passover.
Tea is absoulty right here and sense you think Tom is right Ill ask you the same questions he didnt answer please explain how and why you think you can change the scripture in Rev 9 and 12 even down to, and including, the fifth trump, and Even Luke because you think you see a possable interptation of a word ... That has slim to no support. We use langage to clarify to give us a better understand of Gods Word not to change it and then dismiss other verse's to the contrary.
 

BenTobijah

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QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 24 2009, 08:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72964
Tea is absoulty right here and sense you think Tom is right Ill ask you the same questions he didnt answer please explain how and why you think you can change the scripture in Rev 9 and 12 even down to, and including, the fifth trump, and Even Luke because you think you see a possable interptation of a word ... That has slim to no support. We use langage to clarify to give us a better understand of Gods Word not to change it and then dismiss other verse's to the contrary.
With all do respect, I see know reason to continue this dialog. Even if I showed you, neither of you would believe it until it comes from someone else. We will have to wait and see.
 

Jordan

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QUOTE (BenTobijah @ Apr 24 2009, 11:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72968
QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 24 2009, 08:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72964
Tea is absoulty right here and sense you think Tom is right Ill ask you the same questions he didnt answer please explain how and why you think you can change the scripture in Rev 9 and 12 even down to, and including, the fifth trump, and Even Luke because you think you see a possable interptation of a word ... That has slim to no support. We use langage to clarify to give us a better understand of Gods Word not to change it and then dismiss other verse's to the contrary.
With all do respect, I see know reason to continue this dialog. Even if I showed you, neither of you would believe it until it comes from someone else. We will have to wait and see.Actually anybody who truly loves our Father and His Son and Truth... is very much open to reproof, to be corrected. And Christina would gladly change her beliefs if she is proven wrong with scriptures and not with opinions. Opinions doesn't move her. Only scriptures with rightly dividing God's Words.Isaiah 14:12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!The Hebrew word for Lucifer which is Satan's original name. H1966 - heylel היללLucifer = "light-bearer"1) shining one, morning star, Lucifera) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of BabylonRevelation 9:1 - And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.Luke 10:18 - And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
 

TeaTephi

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QUOTE (BenTobijah @ Apr 25 2009, 12:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72968
With all do respect, I see know reason to continue this dialog. Even if I showed you, neither of you would believe it until it comes from someone else. We will have to wait and see.
You see that's just the thing. Heb 11:111 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."of things hoped for" = NT:1679 from NT:1680; to expect or confide:"substance" = NT:5287 lit., "a standing under" (hupo, "under," stasis, "a standing"), "that which stands, or is set, under, a foundation, beginning"; hence, the quality of confidence which leads one to stand under, endure, or undertake anything, 2 Cor 9:4; 11:17; Heb 3:14. - Vine's Expository DictionaryEvidence = NT:1650 from NT:1651; proof, conviction:Now Faith is the FOUNDATION of things EXPECTED (OR CONFIDED), the CONVICTION of things not seen.