Vickie, debating scriptures in itself is not a sin. To debate scriptures to try to get one to drive deeper to God's Words is not a sin. A healthy debate is not a sin... Christ debated scriptures with the Pharisees and Sadducees, and He always won the battle, and they PLANNED to kill Christ... Did Christ make them sin? No. They did on their own, because they were self-absorbed to their tradition.
Is Satan In Heaven?
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QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 11 2009, 11:28 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72361
Vickie, debating scriptures in itself is not a sin. To debate scriptures to try to get one to drive deeper to God's Words is not a sin. A healthy debate is not a sin... Christ debated scriptures with the Pharisees and Sadducees, and He always won the battle, and they PLANNED to kill Christ... Did Christ make them sin? No. They did on their own, because they were self-absorbed to their tradition.
Thank you Jordan, I agree with you. Christ is God and he can do anything for he is the prophesy of it all. We are the students of God and we are learning, let us love one another for we are not of those against God as the Pharisees were. That is the difference with those called and baptized in Christ. We are all learning and studying the books for further understanding. This is why we must not be insulting or sinful to each other in our differences. Thanks I know you love the word of God as many of us do, and we will find a way to make it happen in discussion by doing it God's way for verses brought forth do open all of our eyes and helps us all, though we may still see some of them differently.ThanksVickie
Vickie, debating scriptures in itself is not a sin. To debate scriptures to try to get one to drive deeper to God's Words is not a sin. A healthy debate is not a sin... Christ debated scriptures with the Pharisees and Sadducees, and He always won the battle, and they PLANNED to kill Christ... Did Christ make them sin? No. They did on their own, because they were self-absorbed to their tradition.
Thank you Jordan, I agree with you. Christ is God and he can do anything for he is the prophesy of it all. We are the students of God and we are learning, let us love one another for we are not of those against God as the Pharisees were. That is the difference with those called and baptized in Christ. We are all learning and studying the books for further understanding. This is why we must not be insulting or sinful to each other in our differences. Thanks I know you love the word of God as many of us do, and we will find a way to make it happen in discussion by doing it God's way for verses brought forth do open all of our eyes and helps us all, though we may still see some of them differently.ThanksVickie
Satan was an angel serving God throughout the Old Testament. Every OT reference to him tells us so. In Job we see him as the "tempter". If he was in the Garden of Eden, and we do not know that he was (only the "serpent" is cursed by God), then was he serving God in his role as tempter there, too. To say that he was acting on his own would be silly since God knows all things, and certainly knew that Adam and Eve would sin long before they were created by Him.The references to him by the prophets are of future events. Prophets tells us of future events, and are not historians. Therefore all that they spoke of is for the future.There was war in heaven, and Satan and one-third of the angels were cast down to earth, but when was it. It had to be during the period between the two testaments. That is because, during the OT, Satan is working for God as the tempter. but look in Matthew and you will find him attempting to get Jesus to worship HIM, which is pure sin. And the first reference to him as "the devil" is found in Matthew, too.We also know that only sinless beings can come near God (Exodus 3:5; Deut. 23:14). We know that God's presence imparts and requires holiness (1st Cor. 3:13-17; 1st John 3:3-9) And we know that evil cannot dwell with God (in Heaven) (Psalms 5:4), which means that Satan cannot be shut up anywhere in Heaven.We know that the devil Satan is on the earth, and that he is called "the god of this world" by Paul (2nd Cor. 4:4) and that God has given him extraordinary powers (2nd Cor. 11:14), but only until God will take him out of the way of truth (2nd Thess. 2:1-12 (this is a great read on things that will come to pass, and God is in complete control of everything).So know this from Scripture. Satan is very real, and he is here on earth. He, his demons, and his followers are active in taking souls on a sinful path and away from God. He is doing this as part of God's plan and purpose (he is actually serving God even though he does not realize that is what he is doing). And also know that the Bible is complete in every conceivable way with respect to God's Scripture. How do we know this? Because three times we are clearly instructed not to add anything to it (it is complete right now), and twice we are clearly told not to take anything away from it. (Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:5-6, and Revelation 22:18-19). The two verses from Proverbs are particularly telling in that anyone adding to Scripture will be found a liar.Rank Stranger
I have seen some strange beliefs in my day but the belief that Satan is bound in heaven has got to be one of the weirdest.
Anyone that wants to debate or disagree with this thats fine but so far all I have seen is opinions and everybody has one lets see you guys please explain the scripture that says different Rev. 9 and 12 Rev. is the fifth trump future ?and then we have the star a he who is given the key.... He is apollyon a name for Satan or are we to just set aside scripture because it doesnt fit our opinions ????Revelation 9 1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. Rev.12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. 7And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. 12One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
QUOTE (watchman @ Apr 12 2009, 10:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72436
I have seen some strange beliefs in my day but the belief that Satan is bound in heaven has got to be one of the weirdest.
Agreed!Rank Stranger
I have seen some strange beliefs in my day but the belief that Satan is bound in heaven has got to be one of the weirdest.
Agreed!Rank Stranger
QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 13 2009, 12:03 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72440
Anyone that wants to debate or disagree with this thats fine but so far all I have seen is opinions and everybody has one lets see you guys please explain the scripture that says different
Are you joking, are actually saying scripture says that satan is in heaven, wow unbelievable. Jesus says this.Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.Yet you say Satan is in Heaven. I think it is you that needs to reconcile their beliefs to scripture not the rest of us.
Anyone that wants to debate or disagree with this thats fine but so far all I have seen is opinions and everybody has one lets see you guys please explain the scripture that says different
Are you joking, are actually saying scripture says that satan is in heaven, wow unbelievable. Jesus says this.Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.Yet you say Satan is in Heaven. I think it is you that needs to reconcile their beliefs to scripture not the rest of us.
Exactly watchman a future event if taken literally ...when put with Rev 9 Rev 12 Or Do you say the 5th/6th trump have already occured there are and many more verses the beast that was ,is not,will be or do you think Satan wasnt on earth before Luke says this ? What is his point of telling us a past point and notice he says this right before he describes Christ second coming Luke can be seen as second wittness to rev. So as I said your opinion means nothing second I might point out sense we know Antichrist will be claiming to be christ dont you think he must mimic christs coming to fool the entire world ???
QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 13 2009, 01:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72460
Exactly watchman a future event if taken literally ...when put with Rev 9 Rev 12 Or Do you say the 5th/6th trump have already occured there are and many more verses the beast that was ,is not,will be or do you think Satan wasnt on earth before Luke says this ? What is his point of telling us a past point and notice he says this right before he describes Christ second coming Luke can be seen as second wittness to rev. So as I said your opinion means nothing second I might point out sense we know Antichrist will be claiming to be christ dont you think he must mimic christs coming to fool the entire world ???
Your opinion is the one that means nothing. Only what scripture actually says matters, and you off the wall doctrines do not line up with scripture, therefore our meaningless.
Exactly watchman a future event if taken literally ...when put with Rev 9 Rev 12 Or Do you say the 5th/6th trump have already occured there are and many more verses the beast that was ,is not,will be or do you think Satan wasnt on earth before Luke says this ? What is his point of telling us a past point and notice he says this right before he describes Christ second coming Luke can be seen as second wittness to rev. So as I said your opinion means nothing second I might point out sense we know Antichrist will be claiming to be christ dont you think he must mimic christs coming to fool the entire world ???
Your opinion is the one that means nothing. Only what scripture actually says matters, and you off the wall doctrines do not line up with scripture, therefore our meaningless.
can you read scripture? why dont you explain the scriptures verse's I posted above from Rev 9 and 12 to us watchman these are not my words but Gods
QUOTE (watchman @ Apr 13 2009, 02:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72468
QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 13 2009, 12:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72460
Exactly watchman a future event if taken literally ...when put with Rev 9 Rev 12 Or Do you say the 5th/6th trump have already occured there are and many more verses the beast that was ,is not,will be or do you think Satan wasnt on earth before Luke says this ? What is his point of telling us a past point and notice he says this right before he describes Christ second coming Luke can be seen as second wittness to rev. So as I said your opinion means nothing second I might point out sense we know Antichrist will be claiming to be christ dont you think he must mimic christs coming to fool the entire world ???
Your opinion is the one that means nothing. Only what scripture actually says matters, and you off the wall doctrines do not line up with scripture, therefore our meaningless.Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.Proverbs 3:6 - In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.Proverbs 3:7 - Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil....Proverbs 26:16 - The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason.Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in....Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.Isaiah 55:9 - For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Honestly watchman, all you do around this forum is spreading false accusations and I know you don't tend to stop at all.
QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 13 2009, 12:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72460
Exactly watchman a future event if taken literally ...when put with Rev 9 Rev 12 Or Do you say the 5th/6th trump have already occured there are and many more verses the beast that was ,is not,will be or do you think Satan wasnt on earth before Luke says this ? What is his point of telling us a past point and notice he says this right before he describes Christ second coming Luke can be seen as second wittness to rev. So as I said your opinion means nothing second I might point out sense we know Antichrist will be claiming to be christ dont you think he must mimic christs coming to fool the entire world ???
Your opinion is the one that means nothing. Only what scripture actually says matters, and you off the wall doctrines do not line up with scripture, therefore our meaningless.Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.Proverbs 3:6 - In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.Proverbs 3:7 - Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil....Proverbs 26:16 - The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason.Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in....Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.Isaiah 55:9 - For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Honestly watchman, all you do around this forum is spreading false accusations and I know you don't tend to stop at all.
QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 13 2009, 03:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72471
Your opinion is the one that means nothing. Only what scripture actually says matters, and you off the wall doctrines do not line up with scripture, therefore our meaningless.Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.Proverbs 3:6 - In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.Proverbs 3:7 - Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil....Proverbs 26:16 - The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason.Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in....Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.Isaiah 55:9 - For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Honestly watchman, all you do around this forum is spreading false accusations and I know you don't tend to stop at all.
I wish you would follow these passages of scripture instead of just quoting them. The fact you know these scriptures and do not obey them makes it worse for you than those that do not understand the word at all.
Your opinion is the one that means nothing. Only what scripture actually says matters, and you off the wall doctrines do not line up with scripture, therefore our meaningless.Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.Proverbs 3:6 - In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.Proverbs 3:7 - Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil....Proverbs 26:16 - The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason.Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in....Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.Isaiah 55:9 - For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Honestly watchman, all you do around this forum is spreading false accusations and I know you don't tend to stop at all.
I wish you would follow these passages of scripture instead of just quoting them. The fact you know these scriptures and do not obey them makes it worse for you than those that do not understand the word at all.
Hi EveryoneI would like to chime in, if I may.You know Peter did have first hand experience with satan roaming around like a lion. As you already know he was rebuked by Jesus to "Get thee behind Me, Satan".What was the reason Jesus gave for the "rebuke" directed at Peter?Matthew 16:23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.This was directed to Peter, because he was acting out AGAINST the WILL of God (not the things that be of God).PETER, PETER! He knew ALL about roving lions!Note the Difference between What Christ said to Peter ( a disciple going to have eternal life) and what Christ said to satan ( son of peridition).Obviously their fate is quite the opposite. Hence the REBUKE is completely different then the "sentencing of satan".So even though "Get thee (5217) behind Me" is used twice. It isn't used in the same exact context. Because for one, immortal life is emminant, for the other death is emmiment.The definition clarifies my point:look at the defintion of 5217 more carefully: to lead (oneself) under, that is, withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), literally or figuratively: - depart, get hence, go (a-) way.Is the son of Perdition capable of "leading himself" out of sight? Would the son of Perdition willingly "sink out of sight"? I think not! Unless he were forced to do so; hence, the battle of the ages between Michael the archangel and satan, which takes place in the place satan was told to g
BVIOUSLY, Peter was NOT the son of Perdition, so the context of the passage Matthew 16:23 naturally requires a figurative sense. Being one of "rank" or "position". Obviously, Peter was not sentenced to prison or death.When Jesus was speaking to satan himself, he said Matt 4:10"for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve."This is the REASON satan was rebuked. Notice how different the reason is from Peter's rebuke.Who is coming to be worshipped like a messiah? We know, it's satan of course! Then what, in essence, was Jesus saying to him? I think he's saying, that He's not going to LET satan come as spurious Christ (remember satan tempted Christ to worship him?) until his time.Hence, the whole purpose of locking him up "behind" our Heavenly Father. Satan wanted the whole earth to worship him, EVEN THEN!So, since satan would never "willingly" sink into the background ("lead himself"), Christ commanded him to go there, and enforced it. 2 Thess 2:77 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Michael) who now letteth will let, until he (SATAN) be taken out of the way.Michael is holding "him" (satan) as we speak. To prevent the worship of the beast before his "set time". For he only has a "SHORT time" :Rev 12:1212 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come DOWN unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a SHORT time.OF course you know what happens then, first thing he lets the demons out of the pit with his "key". He's been waiting to do that for about 2000 of our years.So, you can see that Revelation (speaking of the great tribulation and 2nd WOE) says Woe to the EARTH for the devil is Come DOWN. AND he only has a SHORT time (not a long time, or 2000 years) and he does come DOWN.Down from where? I'm guessing from BEHIND the LORD, where he was told to go. That doesn't mean that he is "in" heaven, but that he is CONFINED to a location NEAR heaven, where Michael holds him.I think that the dimensions of heaven, being different from the dimensions we know and live in may contribute to the confusion on "where" satan is. Since we cannot fully comprehend the heaven dimension, we must take the Word for what it says and not try to explain the exact where-abouts via dimensional terms.Father tells us that satan is "behind Him" so that he cannot be on earth as the False Messiah before his time. We may not understand exactly where "behind HIM" is, but we can still believe that it is true. That satan would not go there "willingly", and hence must be HELD there, beginning with the time of Christ's acension.
BVIOUSLY, Peter was NOT the son of Perdition, so the context of the passage Matthew 16:23 naturally requires a figurative sense. Being one of "rank" or "position". Obviously, Peter was not sentenced to prison or death.When Jesus was speaking to satan himself, he said Matt 4:10"for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve."This is the REASON satan was rebuked. Notice how different the reason is from Peter's rebuke.Who is coming to be worshipped like a messiah? We know, it's satan of course! Then what, in essence, was Jesus saying to him? I think he's saying, that He's not going to LET satan come as spurious Christ (remember satan tempted Christ to worship him?) until his time.Hence, the whole purpose of locking him up "behind" our Heavenly Father. Satan wanted the whole earth to worship him, EVEN THEN!So, since satan would never "willingly" sink into the background ("lead himself"), Christ commanded him to go there, and enforced it. 2 Thess 2:77 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Michael) who now letteth will let, until he (SATAN) be taken out of the way.Michael is holding "him" (satan) as we speak. To prevent the worship of the beast before his "set time". For he only has a "SHORT time" :Rev 12:1212 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come DOWN unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a SHORT time.OF course you know what happens then, first thing he lets the demons out of the pit with his "key". He's been waiting to do that for about 2000 of our years.So, you can see that Revelation (speaking of the great tribulation and 2nd WOE) says Woe to the EARTH for the devil is Come DOWN. AND he only has a SHORT time (not a long time, or 2000 years) and he does come DOWN.Down from where? I'm guessing from BEHIND the LORD, where he was told to go. That doesn't mean that he is "in" heaven, but that he is CONFINED to a location NEAR heaven, where Michael holds him.I think that the dimensions of heaven, being different from the dimensions we know and live in may contribute to the confusion on "where" satan is. Since we cannot fully comprehend the heaven dimension, we must take the Word for what it says and not try to explain the exact where-abouts via dimensional terms.Father tells us that satan is "behind Him" so that he cannot be on earth as the False Messiah before his time. We may not understand exactly where "behind HIM" is, but we can still believe that it is true. That satan would not go there "willingly", and hence must be HELD there, beginning with the time of Christ's acension.Not a bad post TeaTephi, and I can see where you are coming from. one quick question...If satan is ''behind'' the Lord somewhere near heaven, why does Paul call him the lower case g ''god'' of this world?
QUOTE (watchman @ Apr 16 2009, 10:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72680
Not a bad post TeaTephi, and I can see where you are coming from. one quick question...If satan is ''behind'' the Lord somewhere near heaven, why does Paul call him the lower case g ''god'' of this world?
2 Cor 4:44 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.Eph 6:1212 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.I think that being the "god" of this world is not ultimately what satan wants. He wants to be the "God" of this world. His role to come as "Spurious Messiah" is just that. He tried to convince the True Heavenly Father to worship him, in hopes he could achieve this "Godness", but, of course, Christ rebuked him and locked the door to that role until a future "set time", so now he reigns (satan) only in part, god with a little "g".See what the elect have available to them:Rev 3:88 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.Satan has before him a LOCKED door. Because he can't behave, and will stop at nothing to become God with a big "G".
Not a bad post TeaTephi, and I can see where you are coming from. one quick question...If satan is ''behind'' the Lord somewhere near heaven, why does Paul call him the lower case g ''god'' of this world?
2 Cor 4:44 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.Eph 6:1212 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.I think that being the "god" of this world is not ultimately what satan wants. He wants to be the "God" of this world. His role to come as "Spurious Messiah" is just that. He tried to convince the True Heavenly Father to worship him, in hopes he could achieve this "Godness", but, of course, Christ rebuked him and locked the door to that role until a future "set time", so now he reigns (satan) only in part, god with a little "g".See what the elect have available to them:Rev 3:88 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.Satan has before him a LOCKED door. Because he can't behave, and will stop at nothing to become God with a big "G".
QUOTE (tomwebster @ Apr 10 2009, 08:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72299
There are those that believe this passage means that Satan is "in heaven" held behind Christ by Michael. The word "get behind me" as used in Matthew 16:23., also has the meaning of "take your place below me" ie, "I am in charge here not you." Christ is not telling Satan to go directly to jail. He is telling Satan his proper place in the ranks of authority.Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get(G5217) thee behind(G3694) me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. G5217ὑπάγωhupagōhoop-ag'-oFrom G5259 and G71; to lead (oneself) under, that is, withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), literally or figuratively: - depart, get hence, go (a-) way.G5259ὑπόhupohoop-o'A primary preposition; under, that is, (with the genitive) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative) of place (whither [underneath] or where [below]) or time (when [at]): - among, by, from, in, of, under, with. In compounds it retains the same genitive applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specifically covertly or moderately.G3694ὄπίσωopisōop-is'-oFrom the same as G3693 with enclitic of direction; to the back, that is, aback (as adverb or preposition of time or place; or as noun): - after, back (-ward), (+ get) behind, + follow.G3693ὄπισθενopisthenop'-is-thenFrom ὄπις opis (regard; from G3700) with enclitic of source; from the rear (as a secure aspect), that is, at the back (adverb and preposition of palce or time): - after, backside, behind.Satan is still going "to and fro. " Unfortunately he does not wear a name tag and he blends in just like his children.
Great post Tom..........Logabe
There are those that believe this passage means that Satan is "in heaven" held behind Christ by Michael. The word "get behind me" as used in Matthew 16:23., also has the meaning of "take your place below me" ie, "I am in charge here not you." Christ is not telling Satan to go directly to jail. He is telling Satan his proper place in the ranks of authority.Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get(G5217) thee behind(G3694) me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. G5217ὑπάγωhupagōhoop-ag'-oFrom G5259 and G71; to lead (oneself) under, that is, withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), literally or figuratively: - depart, get hence, go (a-) way.G5259ὑπόhupohoop-o'A primary preposition; under, that is, (with the genitive) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative) of place (whither [underneath] or where [below]) or time (when [at]): - among, by, from, in, of, under, with. In compounds it retains the same genitive applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specifically covertly or moderately.G3694ὄπίσωopisōop-is'-oFrom the same as G3693 with enclitic of direction; to the back, that is, aback (as adverb or preposition of time or place; or as noun): - after, back (-ward), (+ get) behind, + follow.G3693ὄπισθενopisthenop'-is-thenFrom ὄπις opis (regard; from G3700) with enclitic of source; from the rear (as a secure aspect), that is, at the back (adverb and preposition of palce or time): - after, backside, behind.Satan is still going "to and fro. " Unfortunately he does not wear a name tag and he blends in just like his children.
Great post Tom..........Logabe
I have seen some strange beliefs in my day but the belief that Satan is bound in heaven has got to be one of the weirdest. -- Watchman- Yeah, I am going to have to add my agreement with that statement.I do understand how the scriptures mention, used by themselves, could cause this question.But scripture as a whole, mentioning the efforts of satan and the continued warnings to stay cautious against his efforts should carry at least the same weight.
QUOTE (Polar @ Apr 17 2009, 11:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72705
I have seen some strange beliefs in my day but the belief that Satan is bound in heaven has got to be one of the weirdest. -- Watchman- Yeah, I am going to have to add my agreement with that statement.I do understand how the scriptures mention, used by themselves, could cause this question.But scripture as a whole, mentioning the efforts of satan and the continued warnings to stay cautious against his efforts should carry at least the same weight.
There are many who profess different doctrines, but we all profess the same Lord, soon the veil will be lifted and we who have been given eternal life will know the complete truth. In the meantime there are many parts of the body with differences in some areas of the bible. Satan bound in heaven is one of them, though others believe he is the god of this world and runs back and forth to the Lord waiting for approval to cause upheavel with the family of God. Let us be kind one to another that we gather for Christ and not scatter the little children away from love and cause them to sin. VickieQUOTE (TeaTephi @ Apr 16 2009, 07:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72678
Hi EveryoneI would like to chime in, if I may.You know Peter did have first hand experience with satan roaming around like a lion. As you already know he was rebuked by Jesus to "Get thee behind Me, Satan".What was the reason Jesus gave for the "rebuke" directed at Peter?Matthew 16:23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.This was directed to Peter, because he was acting out AGAINST the WILL of God (not the things that be of God).PETER, PETER! He knew ALL about roving lions!Father tells us that satan is "behind Him" so that he cannot be on earth as the False Messiah before his time. We may not understand exactly where "behind HIM" is, but we can still believe that it is true. That satan would not go there "willingly", and hence must be HELD there, beginning with the time of Christ's acension.
What I gather from the Lord speaking to Satan who had come through Peter, was an attempt to weaken Jesus, but Jesus cast Satan away by saying get thee behind me. Satan went at trying to temp Jesus for 40 days in the plains and Jesus fasted. In the flesh Jesus was man and had to rely upon the father's guidence and Spirit of God to lead him, Jesus had to fast this entire time. We all have opinions in what we get out of the verses in some areas. But this is what I get from them when I read them. Thanks Vickie
I have seen some strange beliefs in my day but the belief that Satan is bound in heaven has got to be one of the weirdest. -- Watchman- Yeah, I am going to have to add my agreement with that statement.I do understand how the scriptures mention, used by themselves, could cause this question.But scripture as a whole, mentioning the efforts of satan and the continued warnings to stay cautious against his efforts should carry at least the same weight.
There are many who profess different doctrines, but we all profess the same Lord, soon the veil will be lifted and we who have been given eternal life will know the complete truth. In the meantime there are many parts of the body with differences in some areas of the bible. Satan bound in heaven is one of them, though others believe he is the god of this world and runs back and forth to the Lord waiting for approval to cause upheavel with the family of God. Let us be kind one to another that we gather for Christ and not scatter the little children away from love and cause them to sin. VickieQUOTE (TeaTephi @ Apr 16 2009, 07:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72678
Hi EveryoneI would like to chime in, if I may.You know Peter did have first hand experience with satan roaming around like a lion. As you already know he was rebuked by Jesus to "Get thee behind Me, Satan".What was the reason Jesus gave for the "rebuke" directed at Peter?Matthew 16:23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.This was directed to Peter, because he was acting out AGAINST the WILL of God (not the things that be of God).PETER, PETER! He knew ALL about roving lions!Father tells us that satan is "behind Him" so that he cannot be on earth as the False Messiah before his time. We may not understand exactly where "behind HIM" is, but we can still believe that it is true. That satan would not go there "willingly", and hence must be HELD there, beginning with the time of Christ's acension.
What I gather from the Lord speaking to Satan who had come through Peter, was an attempt to weaken Jesus, but Jesus cast Satan away by saying get thee behind me. Satan went at trying to temp Jesus for 40 days in the plains and Jesus fasted. In the flesh Jesus was man and had to rely upon the father's guidence and Spirit of God to lead him, Jesus had to fast this entire time. We all have opinions in what we get out of the verses in some areas. But this is what I get from them when I read them. Thanks Vickie
QUOTE (Polar @ Apr 17 2009, 12:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=72705
I have seen some strange beliefs in my day but the belief that Satan is bound in heaven has got to be one of the weirdest. -- Watchman- Yeah, I am going to have to add my agreement with that statement.I do understand how the scriptures mention, used by themselves, could cause this question.But scripture as a whole, mentioning the efforts of satan and the continued warnings to stay cautious against his efforts should carry at least the same weight.
Hi PolarYah when you say it like that (satan is IN heaven) it does sound pretty weird. What that tells me is that, satan is HELD under lock and key be a GOOD angel (who will obey God) until satan is released. I think that since we don't understand the dimension God is in, then it is really hard to explain where satan is. If the Scriptures say he is "behind" God then that could mean that he is near heaven but not part of heaven.Paul says so in EphesiansEph 6:1212 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.HIGH is NT:2032epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:1909 and NT:3772; above the sky: KJV - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.This is a mysterious thing. Even the Scriptures say so:2 Thess 2:6-76 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his TIME.7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Michael) who now letteth will let, until he (satan) be taken out of the way.This shows satan does "work" (operate as god of this world), but is still Held by an angel until a certain time.We see that same angel laying hold on satan in Revelation 20 written by John the "divine".Rev 20:22 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,NT:2902krateo (krat-eh'-o); from NT:2904; to use strength, i.e. seize or retain (literally or figuratively):So this is a mystery that can be known (2 Thes. 2:6) that "he" (satan) will be revealed (let go) in his specific given TIME.When you look at it this way it's not weird, but Divine to see how God is completely in control of what is to come. It will not be mysterious to us, but to those who don't read and study it will catch them completely off guard.Mark 4:1111 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:Rom 16:2525 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,1 Cor 2:77 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:Eph 1:99 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himselfAUL writing:Eph 3:3-43 How that by revelation he made known unto ME the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)THE MYSTERY - Satan comes DOWN from heaven before Christ returns to play the part of SPURIOUS MESSIAH.If you understand the mystery, then this verse makes perfect sense.Rev 12:1212 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
I have seen some strange beliefs in my day but the belief that Satan is bound in heaven has got to be one of the weirdest. -- Watchman- Yeah, I am going to have to add my agreement with that statement.I do understand how the scriptures mention, used by themselves, could cause this question.But scripture as a whole, mentioning the efforts of satan and the continued warnings to stay cautious against his efforts should carry at least the same weight.
Hi PolarYah when you say it like that (satan is IN heaven) it does sound pretty weird. What that tells me is that, satan is HELD under lock and key be a GOOD angel (who will obey God) until satan is released. I think that since we don't understand the dimension God is in, then it is really hard to explain where satan is. If the Scriptures say he is "behind" God then that could mean that he is near heaven but not part of heaven.Paul says so in EphesiansEph 6:1212 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.HIGH is NT:2032epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:1909 and NT:3772; above the sky: KJV - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.This is a mysterious thing. Even the Scriptures say so:2 Thess 2:6-76 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his TIME.7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Michael) who now letteth will let, until he (satan) be taken out of the way.This shows satan does "work" (operate as god of this world), but is still Held by an angel until a certain time.We see that same angel laying hold on satan in Revelation 20 written by John the "divine".Rev 20:22 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,NT:2902krateo (krat-eh'-o); from NT:2904; to use strength, i.e. seize or retain (literally or figuratively):So this is a mystery that can be known (2 Thes. 2:6) that "he" (satan) will be revealed (let go) in his specific given TIME.When you look at it this way it's not weird, but Divine to see how God is completely in control of what is to come. It will not be mysterious to us, but to those who don't read and study it will catch them completely off guard.Mark 4:1111 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:Rom 16:2525 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,1 Cor 2:77 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:Eph 1:99 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself
AUL writing:Eph 3:3-43 How that by revelation he made known unto ME the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)THE MYSTERY - Satan comes DOWN from heaven before Christ returns to play the part of SPURIOUS MESSIAH.If you understand the mystery, then this verse makes perfect sense.Rev 12:1212 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
tomwebster
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Polar, Let's continue looking atv several verses:2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed(G601) in his time. G601ἀποκαλύπτωapokaluptōap-ok-al-oop'-toFrom G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.G575ἀπόapoapo'A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.G2572καλύπτωkaluptōkal-oop'-toAkin to G2813 and G2928; to cover up (literally or figuratively): - cover, hide.No portion of the word ἀποκαλύπτω "apokaluptō" means "let go", no portion of it!Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. And I know you do not believe Heaven is in the sky.Let's look at 2 Thes 2:6-7 some more.2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdethG2722 that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now lettethG2722 G737 will let, until he be taken out of the way. "Withholdeth" and "letteth" are the same Greek word, G2722 and "will let" was added, it is not there in Greek Scripture.G2722κατέχωkatechōkat-ekh'-oFrom G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively): - have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.G2596κατάkatakat-ah'A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from . . . to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), . . . by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.G2192ἔχωechōekh'-oA primary verb (including an alternate form σχέω scheō skheh'-o used in certain tenses only); to hold (used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote; such as possession, ability, contiguity, relation or condition): - be (able, X hold, possessed with), accompany, + begin to amend, can (+ -not), X conceive, count, diseased, do, + eat, + enjoy, + fear, following, have, hold, keep, + lack, + go to law, lie, + must needs, + of necessity, + need, next, + recover, + reign, + rest, return, X sick, take for, + tremble, + uncircumcised, use.More on vs. 7:2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now lettethG2722 G737 will let, until he be taken out of the way. vs 7 in Greek:2Th 2:7 τὸ γὰρ μυστήριον ἤδη ἐνεργεῖται τῆς ἀνομίας, μόνον ὁ κατέχων ἄρτι ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται· vs 7 in Greek with Strong's numbers added: (I have also added the part of speech for each Greek word) We are looking at this word or actually set of words: lettethG2722 G7372Th 2:7 τοG3588 T-NSN γαρG1063 CONJ μυστηριονG3466 N-NSN ηδηG2235 ADV ενεργειταιG1754 V-PMI-3S τηςG3588 T-GSF ανομιαςG458 N-GSF μονονG3440 ADV οG3588 T-NSM κατεχωνG2722 V-PAP-NSM αρτιG737 ADV εωςG2193 ADV εκG1537 PREP μεσουG3319 A-GSN γενηταιG1096 V-2ADS-3S We have all read looked at G2722, how about G737:G737ἄρτιartiar'-teeAdverb from a derivative of G142 (compare G740) through the idea of suspension; just now: - this day (hour), hence [-forth], here [-after], hither [-to], (even) now, (this) present.This is NOT chains. Satan remains in his rightful position (of authority) beneath, under) Christ. Satan remains in that place, under Christ and he is held there by Michael, in suspension. Not in chains behind Christ, but in the place of authority below, under Christ. And Michael does not need to be there guarding Satan 24 hours a day. And Satan is able to move around, (to and fro) and still be held in his rightful place of authority. Satan has not taken the "first chair."G142 is part of G737 so I am including it.G142αἴρωairōah'ee-roA primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).
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