Is Spiritual Israel The Woman In Revelation 12?

[ewq1938]

I take it you are SDA?

No.

I agree with this translation...

Revelation 17:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)
Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

The Seven Heads are Seven Mountains *as well as* Seven Kings. There is nothing you can say to make me not believe what the Bible clearly teaches. Sorry.

That is a bad translation. The KJV and others do not say the 7 heads are also the 7 kings. How can 7 kings, where 5 are already gone in Johns time also somehow be 7 mountains which are all intact on the future beast?

As far as the order, again I go by the Word of God...

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I refuse to throw the entire history of the Old Testament into the garbage as you are doing to make your theory work. No way.

Your version doesn't and can't match scripture for the reason I gave above.

 

[VCO]

Thank you for your post.

I am of the opinion that the verse you quoted above happened sometime between the story of Abraham and Sarah and the story of Exodus.

Basically, when Satan learned that Sarah was about to birth the Nation of Israel, that is when the war started with Michael. Satan was cast down sometime during that era. Maybe during the Sodom and Gomorrah event.

Satan's Power was given to the King of Egypt to create the first Antichrist and first head of the Beast...

Ezekiel 29:3
"Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself."

The Dragon (Pharaoh) went after the Israelites. The Earth swallowed the Red Sea and parted it to 'help the Woman'.

The Israelites were then nourished in the wilderness.

If we use a Day/Year Principle, we could possibly fit 1,260 years between the Exodus and the birth of Jesus.

Etc. Etc.

Remember, Michael and Satan argued over the body of Moses. Maybe it happened down here in the physical world. Maybe the argument was with Pharoah since Moses was Egyptian. Maybe the Pharoah wanted to have an Egyptian funeral for Moses. Who knows.

I would be interested in hearing about any problems with the above theories.

Now that sounds like you read that in comic book. Here is the the way I was taught what the Ten Headed Beast represents, in a non-denominational, evangelical Church, and the "Grace to You" radio program of Dr. John MacArthur. Our Pastor Agreed with Dr. John MacArthur teachings.

It is the European Common Market. When the Antichrist, decides to make it a Dictatorship, most of the Nations will abandon their Support for the European Union. They Represent the 10 Nations that remain. That is Logical, not anything like a fictional argument.

Have you ever what a meeting of the European Union, they argue more that the Republicans and Democrats in the USA. That Series of Sermons was the first one I ever listened top about 1979 shortly after I was Born Again, verse by verse by Dr. John MacArthur, on the the radio, "Grace to You" ever weekday night. That was my Spiritual Milk, and I listened to those tapes 4 time each.

 

[VCO]

The same Series of messages is available now thru our Computers. Yes, it is the Same series verse by verse, and it could save a Lot of time, instead constantly arguing, which is Sin. I have never heard a more thorough series on Revelation, nor Truer, in my life. If you want to get on the same PAGE, listen to this series, which I listen to over the years 4 times, starting in 1979. It is free to listen to and way informative. Start with "A Jet Tour Through Revelation", which is a summery of all of Revelation; and then he goes back and teaches it Verse by Verse, all the way through Revelation.

Sermons

www.gty.org

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Woman is a polyvalent symbol.

That is to say, she represents more than one thing.
She is Israel, from whom the Messiah ca, from with a crown of 12 stars symbolizing the 12 Tribes.
She is Mary, Mother of the Messiah with a crown of 12 stars representing the 12 Apostles.

It’s important to remember that the Woman in Rev. 12:1 is the description of the NEW Ark of the Covenant in Heaven described in the preceding verse, Rev. 11:19.

Let’s look at some OT Types and their NY Fulfillments that pertain to the Ark of the Covenant:
OT - The Tabernacle that housed the Ark was overshadowed by the cloud of glory of the Lord (Shekinah glory) filled the Tabernacle (2 Chron. 5:13-14).
NT - Mary was overshadowed by the power of the Most High (Luke 1:35).

OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) who carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the Word of God, the baby “leapt for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

 

[Truth7t7]

The Woman is a polyvalent symbol.

That is to say, she represents more than one thing.
She is Israel, from whom the Messiah ca, from with a crown of 12 stars symbolizing the 12 Tribes.
She is Mary, Mother of the Messiah with a crown of 12 stars representing the 12 Apostles.

It’s important to remember that the Woman in Rev. 12:1 is the description of the NEW Ark of the Covenant in Heaven described in the preceding verse, Rev. 11:19.

Let’s look at some OT Types and their NY Fulfillments that pertain to the Ark of the Covenant:
OT - The Tabernacle that housed the Ark was overshadowed by the cloud of glory of the Lord (Shekinah glory) filled the Tabernacle (2 Chron. 5:13-14).
NT - Mary was overshadowed by the power of the Most High (Luke 1:35).

OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) who carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the Word of God, the baby “leapt for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

I disagree, the woman represents Israel period

Roman Catholicism in its many teachings has created the false icons of the woman being Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

I disagree, the woman represents Israel period

Roman Catholicism in its many teachings has created the false icons of the woman being Mary

Denials are a dime-a-dozen.

Can you offer a Biblical refutation of of the SEVEN OT/NT comparisons I presented?
My 1 year-old grandson can vomit out a simple denial . . .

 

[VCO]

REV. 12:14 wings of a great eagle. Not actual birds’ wings, but a graphic depiction of God’s providential protection of Israel (cf. Ex. 19:4). Wings often speak of protection (cf. Deut. 32:9-12; Ps. 91:4; Isa. 40:31).
The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

Perhaps these are the wings of the Great Eagle:

 

[VCO]

More Eagle Jets in the Sky:

 

[ewq1938]

REV. 12:14 wings of a great eagle.

The context there is not birds attacking the woman's enemies but moving the woman through flight to a place of safety. Do fighter jets move people to a place of safety? No.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

 

[VCO]

The context there is not birds attacking the woman's enemies but moving the woman through flight to a place of safety. Do fighter jets move people to a place of safety? No.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Look at it again, it is Protection of the women while the move into the the wilderness, wildernes can be a desert.
Most of the returning immigrants, flew in by plane.

Ethiopian Jews flown to Israel in latest operation.​

4,000 US immigrants moved to Israel in 2021, the highest annual figure since 1973.​

 

[Keraz]

Revelation 12:17 .....the rest of her [the womans] offspring, those who keep God's Commandments and who maintain their witness of Jesus.
It is undeniably proved that the children of the 'woman', are the Christian peoples.

They are divided into two groups; one is taken to a place, far away and kept safe for the next 1260 days, when Jesus will Return and gather them to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31
The other half must remain in the holy Land and face persecution from the 'beast
. Many will be killed. beheaded: but their souls will be brought back to life by Jesus at His Return.

This division of the Christian peoples is also seen in Zechariah 14:2 and Daniel 11:32

 

[ewq1938]

Look at it again, it is Protection of the women while the move into the the wilderness, wildernes can be a desert.

The wings offer flight to a safe place not protection or defense from the wings. The comparison fails. If you change your view to a passenger plane rather than a fighter jet, you would have a better position and claim.

 

[VCO]

The context there is not birds attacking the woman's enemies but moving the woman through flight to a place of safety. Do fighter jets move people to a place of safety? No.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Have you never been inside a Military Cargo Jets ? ? ?
Lots of JUMP SEATS INSIDE against the side walls.

 

[VCO]

Paratroopers on the way:

HOW MANY CAN IT HOLD!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Getting read to JUMP.
,
If someone was given a Vision of this 2000 or 3000 years ago . . . . . . . JUMP! JUMP! JUMP! How could he describe the Story ? ? ?
Probably the way it was written in our BIBLES.

 

[ewq1938]

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Have you never been inside a Military Cargo Jets ? ? ?
Lots of JUMP SEATS INSIDE against the side walls.

That was my original point when I spoke against your idea that the wings of an Eagle were fighter jets.

 

[St. Joseph]

There is much debate about this, with the Church as Spiritual Israel as much of a contender as some believe an alternative would be OT Israel in this description. But why can't it simply be a representation of Spiritual Israel, or the Church itself consisting of saved Jews and Gentiles both, Symbolically thru Mary, but not just Mary, but Symbolically thru the Church / Spiritual Israel as well?

Let us begin : .............................................................................................................................................................................

Revelation 12 radically alters the elements of Joseph’s dream. It reinterprets them in terms of spiritual Israel — the church or the congregation of God’s people (Galatians 6:16).

In Revelation the 12 tribes do not refer to the ancient nation, but symbolize the complete church (7:1-8). The woman being arrayed with the sun could represent the church as the radiant bride of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:2). The moon under the woman’s feet and the crown on her head could depict her victory through Christ.

Under this imagery, the “woman” of Revelation 12 would represent God’s pure church. Biblical scholar M. Eugene Boring says: “She is the cosmic woman, clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and crowned with twelve stars, who brings forth the Messiah” (Interpretation: A Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching, “Revelation,” p. 152).

In the New Testament, the church is known as spiritual Israel, Zion and “the mother” (Galatians 4:26; 6:16; Ephesians 5:23-24, 30-32; Hebrews 12:22). Zion-Jerusalem was the idealized mother of the nation of Israel (Isaiah 54:1). The metaphor carried over into the New Testament and was applied to the church (Galatians 4:26).

Revelation 12 - Jesus and the Church - Grace Communion International

Visit gci.org and browse Grace Communion International's extensive library of articles on God, the Bible, faith, and the Christian Life.

www.gci.org

The Jews and the church both have 12 stars​

REVELATION 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

“A great wonder in Heaven” means the vision has spiritual implications.
The Jews were also the mother nation that brought forth the Promised Son, Messiah.
A woman symbolizes a church of believers. The true church is the Bride of Christ.

ChurchAges.net - Revelation 12 - Israel and America

ChurchAges.net - Jerusalem can be spelled JerUSAlem. Evidence of a link between Israel and America.

churchages.net

The events described in the second half of the book of Revelation are directly related to the past and future of two symbolic women who are diametrical opposites. The first (Revelation 12) represents those who have been God's covenant people—the "Church of God"—both Old Testament Israel and the New Testament called-out servants of Christ. The identity of this woman (national Israel or the New Testament Church) in Revelation is determined by the context and other scriptures. Jerusalem, the holy city, is portrayed as their spiritual home (Revelation 11:2).

The Two Women of Revelation

The events described in the second half of the book of Revelation are directly related to the past and future of two symbolic women who are diametrical opposites.

www.ucg.org

The Church?​

Amillennial and historical premillennial interpreters argue that the woman here is the Church. Advocates of this interpretation argue that the NT authors call the Church a woman (2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:25-27, 32; 2 Jn. 1, 5; 3 Jn. 9), and the early church fathers call the Church a woman as well

(Rev. 12:1) Who is the woman: Israel, Mary, or the Church? | Evidence Unseen

www.evidenceunseen.com

d. A woman clothed with the sun: Scripturally, this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph’s dream (Genesis 37:9-11). In that dream, the sun represented Jacob, the moon represented Joseph’s mother Rachel, and the eleven stars were the sons of Israel which bowed down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now among the other tribes of Israel.

i. In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20).

2. (2) The woman gives birth.​

Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

a. Being with child: Later in the chapter, it is clear that this child born of Israel is Jesus (She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, Revelation 12:5).

b. She cried out in labor and in pain to give birth: The pain described refers to the travail of Israel at the time of Jesus’ birth (under Roman occupation and oppression).

Enduring Word Bible Commentary Revelation Chapter 12

David Guzik commentary on Revelation 12 explains the woman, the child, and the dragon, and the conflict in heaven between Michael and the dragon.

enduringword.com

Could the "Woman" be both physical Israel through which the Messiah arose (O/T), and spiritual Israel (Gal. 6:16) that gives birth to the saints of the the Old and New Testaments (Rev. 12:1-2, 5, 13, 17)

Can we interpret the "Woman" of Revelation (12:1-2, 13, 17) as the "Israel of God" both of the Old and New Covenants?

The great symbolism of the "woman" in the Book of Revelation (chapter 12) seems to represent Israel both of the Old and New Covenants: Revelation 12:1-2: "A great sign appeared in h...

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

Who is the woman in Revelation 12?​

The woman of the Apocalypse—described as being “clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars” (verse 1)—represents Old Testament Israel. In the Old Testament, God referred to His people as a woman whom He had dressed in honor and splendor (Ezekiel 16). The garland with 12 stars may be symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel (Genesis 37:9-10).

Throughout Revelation 12 we note that the “woman” is repeatedly protected by God (verses 6, 14-16), especially as the time approaches for the “kingdom of our God” to be established on earth (verse 10).

In the New Testament, God’s Church is symbolized as a woman; and its members are likened to virgins (Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 14:4; Revelation 19:7). The New Testament Church is called “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) and likened to “Jerusalem above,” which is called “the mother of us all” (Galatians 4:26, also see Hebrews 12:22-23). Members of the Church are described as “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His [God’s] own special people” (1 Peter 2:9).

When Christ returns to earth, He is going to marry the Church, which is called “His wife” in Revelation 19:7. Read more about Jesus Christ and the Church in our article “Marriage Supper of the Lamb.” Based on these passages, it is clear that the woman in Revelation 12 represents God’s people.

Who Are the Woman, Child and Dragon in Revelation 12?

Revelation 12 provides an overview of three major players in the world today and their impact on end-time events. Whom do the woman, Child and dragon represent, and what can we learn from this section of Bible prophecy?

lifehopeandtruth.com

There is almost no end to interpretation, with OT Israel, and a NT Spiritual Israel being the two greatest contenders. I have selectively quoted from a few sites, a few of which themselves have concluded that OT Israel is in fact their choice.

It is a quite complicated issue and debate, but I see there are those here, who think they are smarter than everyone else, including all biblical scholars and interpreters, who can't decide nor settle these questions amongst themselves, for all to agree, but those with agendas here, to attack premillennialism, by attempting to comment on that which isn't settled by far amongst scholars, has never been settled, and will never be settled in our lifetimes, but hey lets attack premillennialism while we're at it, and pretend we're smarter than everyone else?

After that lengthy article,the answer is no. The church is not Spiritual Israel in Rev. 12 or anywhere else in scripture.

 

[VCO]

That was my original point when I spoke against your idea that the wings of an Eagle were fighter jets.

Oh well, we differ YET again. I think some one 2000 or 3000 years ago, would describe it just like the BIBLE SAID.

 

[VCO]

No such thing as a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many believe and teach, it's a man made fairy tale

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Then you have NEVER READ Zechariah Chapter 14, or you are blind, or have not learned to read yet. I am going to need a Sabbatical BAD, I do that by going to an Evangelical Only Site, where I can agree with other like minded Christian for awhile.

 

[Truth7t7]

Then you have NEVER READ Zechariah Chapter 14, or you are blind, or have not learned to read yet.

Zechariah Chapter 14 Is The Eternal Kingdom, Don't Be Deceived

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[ewq1938]

Oh well, we differ YET again. I think some one 2000 or 3000 years ago, would describe it just like the BIBLE SAID.

The point is that Rev 12 does not describe the wings of an Eagle as attacking anyone so your fighter jet theory makes no sense at all.